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  #1  
Old 09-16-2020, 12:05 AM
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Default 12ga 00 buckshot defensive ammo

Went to a LGS to get some 12ga 00 buckshot for home defensive purposes. Only ammo for 12ga they had left was a box of Fiocchi Defense 12ga 00 2 3/4 buckshot and a case worth of Estate brand 12ga 00 2 3/4 buckshot. I asked them if there was any difference between the two for home defence and the salesperson (ultra nice guy) said that the Estate brand buck was not used for self defense (could not follow his explanation regarding difference). Anyone know why the Estate brand wasn’t recommended?
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Old 09-16-2020, 5:15 AM
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Thumbs up 00 buck

I have only regular 00 buck. If you are willing to break into my place I want you to get what you paid for.....now, defense ammo could be less powerful. My sister bought some of it before she died and it was a smaller round. That my friend is all I know. If the bad guys are outside trying to get in I want to be able to tear them up easily at 50 yards
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Old 09-16-2020, 5:18 AM
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What was the price difference? Defense ammo is much more expensive, like tactical or the one with the pretty lady on the front.
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Old 09-16-2020, 6:56 AM
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I just did a quick goggle search. I see no reason that the estate buckshot cannot be used in the same manner as all other buckshot loads.

If it is sold in the US, it meets Sammi (Sporting arms and ammunition manufacturers institute) spec's and should be GTG.

https://saami.org/

Last edited by 003; 09-16-2020 at 7:03 AM..
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  #5  
Old 09-16-2020, 7:22 AM
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They're both fine for self defense. LGS employees often give creative advice.
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Old 09-16-2020, 8:05 AM
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I guarantee if you ask two bad guys who got shot, one with Estate and one with Fiocchi, they wouldn't be able to articulate any difference - if they could even talk at all.

My preferred defense load is Federal LE133, reduced recoil flight control 8 pellet, and close behind that is Federal LE132 flight control 9 pellet. You aren't going to find that right now. I would not turn my nose up at Estate though, would have no problem sleeping at night with that loaded.
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Old 09-16-2020, 8:23 AM
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Did the gun clerk have brown eyes? Because it sounds like he's full of sheet.

If you can find a quantity of ammo you need it's currently the best policy to buy right now and NEVER let this happen to you again. ALWAYS have a stash for emergency use. NO TOUCHY!!!
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Old 09-16-2020, 9:12 AM
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Haven't needed to use my Rem 00 buck or slugs but confidant they will do the job.
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Old 09-16-2020, 9:29 AM
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I bought a bunch of the fiocci 00 because it was cheap and I needed a lot for a class. It cycled fine, but the pattern is not nearly as tight as federal 00 with flight control. When we were patterning our shotguns at the beginning of class, the fiocci was spreading all over the place. I could barely get all 9 pellets on paper at 25 yards. One of my classmates gave me a few of his federal flight control, and same gun, same choke, same distance I was patterning about the size of a fist.
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Old 09-16-2020, 9:39 AM
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If it says "00 Buckshot" on the package, and goes bang, it will do the job.

Here's the deal guys,,, You need to look at the package and see what the velocity is.

IF it is below 1300 fps it is "Low Recoil" or "Tactical" and will be relatively light recoiling. Same with slugs.

IF it says 1600 fps it is considered "High Base" and is pretty potent stuff, IE: it will kick the snot out of you !

You DON'T need Heavy loads for HD or really anything below big bears.

Hitting someone with Low Recoil Buck or Slugs at Conversational Distances will make just as big a mess as hitting them with Butt Kicker loads. It just won't hurt YOU as much.

Pay attention here because if you inadvertently fire a High Base Round when you are only prepared for a Light One,,,, You will experience pain!!! Been there done that!

Randy
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  #11  
Old 09-16-2020, 9:49 AM
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I tried S&B low recoil 00 buck and liked it well enough to buy a case.
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Old 09-16-2020, 10:04 AM
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Buckshot is buckshot. Inside a house the pattern will be 2 to 3 inches.
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Old 09-16-2020, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
...
Here's the deal guys,,, You need to look at the package and see what the velocity is.

IF it is below 1300 fps it is "Low Recoil" or "Tactical" and will be relatively light recoiling. Same with slugs.

IF it says 1600 fps it is considered "High Base" and is pretty potent stuff, IE: it will kick the snot out of you !

...

Randy
Thanks Randy. Good info. Friendly addition. This would be true for all 2-3/4" non-magnum shells firing 8 or 9 pellets of 00 buck.
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Old 09-16-2020, 1:21 PM
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Originally Posted by PaperTarget View Post
Thanks Randy. Good info. Friendly addition. This would be true for all 2-3/4" non-magnum shells firing 8 or 9 pellets of 00 buck.
Not necessarily,,, lots of Buckshot loads are non magnum but still high velocity. Above 1300 fps is high velocity.



Left: 1425 fps, Right: 1300 fps Not a huge difference, but if you fire 25 of them in a day you'll damn sure know the which one is which.



The key is to read the box they come in, there should be a velocity printed on it anything less than 1300 fps for any given load won't hurt you that bad,,, above that you need to have your gun handling down or the gun will beat you. Most #8 Dove loads regardless of Mfg are in the 1125 to 1225 fps range with 1 1/8 oz. of shot. You should be able to fire these day in and day out once your gun handling is solid.

Keep in mind most Tactical Shotguns M500/590's, Rem 870 are in the 6.5 to 7 lb range.

You are touching off 1oz. or more of payload at .45-70 velocities or more in a light weight gun. This is nothing to sneeze at.

Believe me when I tell you that firing a 1.25-1.5oz slug at 1600 fps will knock the snot out of you! 1 or 2 you can probably take, (and you will be bruised), but more than that, you will surely flinch and when that happens your cheek breaks it's weld with the stock and the gun smacks you in the chops!!!

This hurts bad!!!

Going for Shotgun Class #6 at Front Sight next month. Be shooting both my M500 and A5. Will take the test with the A5 so I can get the 4 in a row in<2.7 seconds!!!

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Old 09-16-2020, 2:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boopiejones View Post
I bought a bunch of the fiocci 00 because it was cheap and I needed a lot for a class. It cycled fine, but the pattern is not nearly as tight as federal 00 with flight control. When we were patterning our shotguns at the beginning of class, the fiocci was spreading all over the place. I could barely get all 9 pellets on paper at 25 yards. One of my classmates gave me a few of his federal flight control, and same gun, same choke, same distance I was patterning about the size of a fist.
Fiocchi Defense Dynamics 12 Gauge Low Recoil 00 Buckshot won't cycle my Beretta A300, Estate will.
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Old 09-16-2020, 2:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysr_racer View Post
Fiocchi Defense Dynamics 12 Gauge Low Recoil 00 Buckshot won't cycle my Beretta A300, Estate will.
This is my only concern since I'm also running a semi-auto.

I'll leave the low recoil stuff for the pump.
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Old 09-16-2020, 3:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
Not necessarily,,, lots of Buckshot loads are non magnum but still high velocity. Above 1300 fps is high velocity.

Left: 1425 fps, Right: 1300 fps Not a huge difference, but if you fire 25 of them in a day you'll damn sure know the which one is which.
...
You are touching off 1oz. or more of payload at .45-70 velocities or more in a light weight gun. This is nothing to sneeze at.

Believe me when I tell you that firing a 1.25-1.5oz slug at 1600 fps will knock the snot out of you! ...
Randy
Yes. My point was that the weight of the shot is also a consideration along with fps for felt recoil.

53.8grains per 00 pellet.

2 loads of equal fps speed but one load has 9 pellets and another with 12 pellets will not have the same recoil.
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Old 09-16-2020, 3:32 PM
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I'm a big fan of mini shells in my break open shotguns, especially for the mrs.

Otherwise #4 buck is also handy enough for those who need recoil management.
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Old 09-16-2020, 4:58 PM
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I've run a lot of Estate buck in all of my shotguns: pump, semi, and an AK pattern shotgun. Never had a single issue with it and it has a solid kick. Palmetto used to sell this stuff super cheap, I'm sure there's ballistics tests out there given how much of it is out there.
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Old 09-16-2020, 5:10 PM
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I shot this today at 15 yards with Estate 00 buck. It seems like it'd do the job.

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Old 09-16-2020, 5:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysr_racer View Post
Fiocchi Defense Dynamics 12 Gauge Low Recoil 00 Buckshot won't cycle my Beretta A300, Estate will.
/thread
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Old 09-16-2020, 5:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysr_racer View Post
I shoot this today at 15 yards with Estate 00 buck. It seems like it'd do the job.

The typical 12 ga shotgun with a cylinder bore will pattern 00 Buck into 15" at 15 yards and then open up @1" for every extra yard.

The Vang Comp Process yields 7" at 25 yards which makes buckshot viable out to 50 yards. www.vangcomp.com

Both of my M500's will actually do this every time.

Randy
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Old 09-16-2020, 6:35 PM
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Okay, the only think not mentioned so far is the possibility of a crimping issue - for instance: all those tactical AK/AR styled shotguns fed by magazines with a limited OAL can have issues of trying to use roll crimped shells (which are slightly longer than traditional folded crimp shells). I’m sure there is a picture for reference somewhere. A lot of European companies use the roll crimp with a disc on top to hold the payload in, where American companies tend to do the waterproof folded crimp (which leaves a much longer empty shell to eject).

Now, in any semi or pump action with a 3” chamber that shouldn’t be an issue at all, but worth mentioning.
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Old 09-16-2020, 6:38 PM
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For those of you concerned about pattern density, the rule of thumb is that higher velocities will give more open patterns, if all other factors are equal. Lower velocities will give tighter patterns. And they will still make a big hole at defensive ranges. Hard pellets will pattern tighter than soft pellets (e.g., tungsten vs lead, high antimony vs low antimony, etc.) And remember that each gun/choke/ammo combo will pattern differently. Shotguns are a bit like .22s in that there are certain shells that a given gun/choke will pattern better than others.
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Old 09-16-2020, 6:47 PM
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Here are my 14 rules for 00 buckshot.

1. It goes bang when I pull the trigger
2. It ejects after it goes bang

Hey, I guess it's only 2 rules
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Old 09-16-2020, 7:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysr_racer View Post
Here are my 14 rules for 00 buckshot.

1. It goes bang when I pull the trigger
2. It elects after it goes bang

Hey, I guess it's only 2 rules
As long as it elects someone pro 2A - that works for me.
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Old 09-16-2020, 7:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EQTrax View Post
Otherwise #4 buck is also handy enough for those who need recoil management.
That depends. Not all #4 is low recoil. I have some with 42 pellets that travel at 1600fps, and it is one of the most painful rounds I have shot out of any shotgun. 28 pellets at 1200fps, sure low recoil.

Recoil is a function of the total weight of the shot (OK, OK, before someone corrects me, the total weight of everything propelled out the muzzle including wad and powder residue) and the powder charge. An ounce and a half of small pellets going fast is going to have more recoil than an ounce of big pellets going slow.
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Old 09-16-2020, 7:49 PM
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Quote:
Otherwise #4 buck is also handy enough for those who need recoil management.
It also makes 27 holes unlike 00 buckshot.
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Old 09-16-2020, 8:29 PM
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Both should work just fine. If it goes bang and put holes in the bad guy, it works as intended. Try both to see which functions (or not) in your gun.
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Old 09-16-2020, 8:32 PM
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I have 9 pellet 00 Federal Flite Control. The design keeps very tight patterns out much further than regular buck. I saw a guy who took a deer at 55 yards and put more than half the pellets in the vitals at that range. Better believe that's a fight stopper. The 8 pellet load is supposed to eliminate the flyer that commonly occurs with 00 buck for whatever reason. But 9 pellet was what they had at the time, so I bought it.

Regardless of what buckshot you use, at least you're using buckshot. Using birdshot for defense can get you killed.
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Old 09-17-2020, 5:23 AM
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I keep this under my bed

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Old 09-17-2020, 9:00 AM
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“A lot of European companies use the roll crimp with a disc on top to hold the payload in, where American companies tend to do the waterproof folded crimp (which leaves a much longer empty shell to eject).”

The empty hull is the same length regardless of crimp.

The loaded round with a roll crimp is longer.
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Old 09-17-2020, 12:07 PM
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OP, was the “defense” load something like $3 per shell? Imho any explanation LGS gives is to justify the higher cost from having “defense” or “tactical” in the label
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Old 09-17-2020, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plumbum View Post
Okay, the only think not mentioned so far is the possibility of a crimping issue - for instance: all those tactical AK/AR styled shotguns fed by magazines with a limited OAL can have issues of trying to use roll crimped shells (which are slightly longer than traditional folded crimp shells). I’m sure there is a picture for reference somewhere. A lot of European companies use the roll crimp with a disc on top to hold the payload in, where American companies tend to do the waterproof folded crimp (which leaves a much longer empty shell to eject).

Now, in any semi or pump action with a 3” chamber that shouldn’t be an issue at all, but worth mentioning.
Plum: I don't know what you are talking about? All 2 3/4' shells "start" as 2 3/4" Roll Crimped or Fold Crimped. Fold Crimped Shells vary in length as much or more than Roll Crimped Shells. It all depends on the contents of the shell.

The 2 3/4" chamber accommodates the entire length of the hull when fired and and makes it so there is no open space between the end of the hull and the forcing cone. A 2 3/4" shell fired in a 3" chamber gets a 1/4" jump between the hull and the forcing cone that the payload has to cross. Not a problem with shot loads but accuracy with slugs will be affected.

I have the Super X Buckshot Shell from the above pic in front of me, and whereas I don't have any Factory Loaded Roll Crimped Buckshot Loads I do have a reloaded one to compare it to. And with that, a Factory Loaded and Roll Crimped Brenneke Slug that is 1/8" shorter. Those loaded shells vary from 2 9/16" for the Super X to 2 3/16" for the Brenneke, but all the hulls are 2 3/4" or 70 MM long to start with.



Roll Crimped hulls tend to be finished better with a Radius on the front which enhances feeding. Also in Europe all the nice Shotshell Loading Machines include a Roll Crimping Station (called a "spool") that is used to finish a Fold Crimp to give it the Radius on the front for the above reason. The Italians especially, are very serious about their shotgun loading and essentially are light years ahead of us here in the US>

I do this on hulls where the Fold Crimp Flares out which is common when reloading Winchester Hulls.

The OAL of a shotshell is affected by the length of the payload or "Stack Height" Which determines how the existing Fold Crimp will reclose. A Roll automatically adjusts to the stack height by folding over and moving down inside the hull until it contacts the solid part of the payload. see the clear brenneke shell on the right.

A 12 ga load with 1oz of shot will be longer than one with a 7/8 oz load of shot because the shot cup is shorter and there is less shot. So the stack height is shorter.

If the gun won't run with a specific type of ammunition, figure out why or use a different type of ammo. All my gun runs perfectly with whatever I put in them and that ranges from Walmart Federal or Winchester to low recoil buck or slugs to my reloads which are milder than all of the above.

I ran nothing but my mild reloads last weekend in the 3 gun in my A5 and it ran flawlessly, but then again it is a Long Recoil Action which is not affected by how much gas is happening. With the Friction Ring set for light loads it runs anything interchangeably.

Randy
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Old 09-17-2020, 2:29 PM
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The Flite Control works well in my shotgun, too. I intend to use an AR-15 as my primary self defense firearm, but I have Flite Control available if that seems more appropriate. Cheaper buckshot doesn't keep a tight enough pattern that I'd be happy using it in a lot of situations, but each gun is a bit different there.
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  #36  
Old 09-17-2020, 3:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ysr_racer View Post
I shot this today at 15 yards with Estate 00 buck. It seems like it'd do the job.

Must have been a 3", too many pellets for a 2 3/4".
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  #37  
Old 09-17-2020, 9:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ysr_racer View Post
Here are my 14 rules for 00 buckshot.

1. It goes bang when I pull the trigger
2. It ejects after it goes bang

Hey, I guess it's only 2 rules
Agree.

The problem I had with Estate was the crimp at the base. The extractor would slide off, requiring multiple attempts to extract the shell. Haven’t used it since.

This was about ten years ago. Perhaps they have corrected this.
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  #38  
Old 09-17-2020, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mojaveman View Post
It also makes 27 holes unlike 00 buckshot.
Yeah, but it sounds like it might just make a bigger bloody spot on the carpet. My wife wouldn't like that.
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  #39  
Old 09-18-2020, 5:18 AM
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Must have been a 3", too many pellets for a 2 3/4".
It was a double shot, of double ought
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Old 09-18-2020, 5:30 AM
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Given the current climate you should have just bought both and all of whatever they had in stock!
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