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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #1  
Old 07-24-2022, 1:06 PM
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Default NEW PRODUCTION WINCHESTER 1886 45-70 SHORT RIFLE GRADE I...BAD BUY OR SCOOP IT UP?

Been searching for an 1886 and only one I have found locally is a GRADE I plain jane model. I contacted Winchester and was told the deluxe are 2 years out if I placed an order or 1 1/2 for the short rifle grade I. Kinda like the color case and finished stock of the deluxe but being reproductions, I don’t see them as having much collector value. I have several Marlins and HENRYS, but feel that even the reproductions are built more robustly plus being controlled feed...can be shot upside down. Only thing really holding me back is the stock, although it is walnut snd fit is excellent, it is just...plain. Anyone buy one and wish they had waited for a deluxe instead? A couple days ago I secured both a CITADDL LEVTAC .357 and a new RUGER made MARLIN TRAPPER so this WINCHESTER would just be a because I can rifle for me.
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Old 07-24-2022, 3:13 PM
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I purchased a new 92 short rifle a few years ago. The wood is okay, nothing to write home about. I thought I could get past the tang safety and rebounding hammer...

Do you know what safety systems come with the 86 ?

You won't find a better new built gun. Like everything else they make, the Japanese can make a nice gun.
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Old 07-24-2022, 4:13 PM
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Those new Winchester 1886 are hard to found. I see then at Sportsman Warehouse website form time to time. You could order one, see how the wood looks like and you still could refuse to buying it.
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Old 07-24-2022, 4:41 PM
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This is my 92...
It's far from a deluxe but then the price tag was only $864 + or - a dollar or 2.

Ya got to pay for the deluxe wood. I'd think the bluing would be the same, can't see that getting any better unless you go CCH. They do great bluing in Japan..

good luck, you won't be disappointed

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Last edited by golfish; 07-24-2022 at 4:43 PM..
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Old 07-24-2022, 4:48 PM
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This one does have the tang safety and rebounding hammer. The wood is not too bad, on the grade I’s it’s not Marbled just runs parallel with the rifle but it does look dry. The metal is like black gold though, the action was smooth, balance felt great, it points easy. It does have the round sporter barrel. Would it be worth having the wood finished being a base model Winchester, the piano finish on the high grades is really nice.Anyone know why Winchester would leave a stock like this, was it to create a more affordable version of the 1886? Any worries with internals being inferior to the deluxe models?
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Old 07-24-2022, 4:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyhaulin818 View Post
This one does have the tang safety and rebounding hammer. The wood is not too bad, on the grade I’s it’s not Marbled just runs parallel with the rifle but it does look dry. The metal is like black gold though, the action was smooth, balance felt great, it points easy. It does have the round sporter barrel. Would it be worth having the wood finished being a base model Winchester, the piano finish on the high grades is really nice.Anyone know why Winchester would leave a stock like this, was it to create a more affordable version of the 1886? Any worries with internals being inferior to the deluxe models?
Yeah man, all the refinishing in the world won't upgrade the wood. If you want nicer wood your gonna have to go deluxe or find some stocks and have them custom fitted.

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Old 07-24-2022, 5:45 PM
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Originally Posted by heavyhaulin818 View Post
Been searching for an 1886 and only one I have found locally is a GRADE I plain jane model. I contacted Winchester and was told the deluxe are 2 years out if I placed an order or 1 1/2 for the short rifle grade I. Kinda like the color case and finished stock of the deluxe but being reproductions, I don’t see them as having much collector value. I have several Marlins and HENRYS, but feel that even the reproductions are built more robustly plus being controlled feed...can be shot upside down.
What's this business about controlled round feed?
Did they redesign the 1886?

https://youtu.be/kx6xaNab5Es?t=294
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Last edited by ar15barrels; 07-24-2022 at 5:50 PM..
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Old 07-24-2022, 5:50 PM
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heavyhaulin818
I got a high grade VI/V 1892, wood looks fancy, is oil stain finished. If you want to shoot the 1886, the plain jane will be good all around.

Last edited by Viper49; 07-24-2022 at 5:53 PM..
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Old 07-24-2022, 6:54 PM
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I decided I am going to buy it, I have been looking everywhere and they are either sold out with no back order or no longer available with no other option...even the plain jane models. If a deluxe comes available I’ll make every effort to buy it. The controlled feed thing I found on another forum where the members were comparing winchesters to marlins. I read something similar a couple years ago with regards to semi auto pistols and revolvers being shot upside down although it was not described as controlled feed.
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Old 07-24-2022, 7:52 PM
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Originally Posted by heavyhaulin818 View Post
The controlled feed thing I found on another forum where the members were comparing winchesters to marlins.
I read something similar a couple years ago with regards to semi auto pistols and revolvers being shot upside down although it was not described as controlled feed.
Controlled feed means that the bolt controls the cartridge from before the cartridge leaves the magazine through when the cartridge is fully chambered.
Think Mauser 98 and Win M70 where the claw extractor picks up the case rim BEFORE the cartridge is free of the feed rails in the receiver.

The 1886 is not a controlled feed design as the cartridge is free of the bolt until the cartridge is in the chamber all the way and the extractor finally snaps over the case rim.
Non-controlled feed guns are generally called push-feed because the bolt pushes the cartridge into the chamber until the cartridge stops and then the extractoe snaps over the case rim.

Lever action, pump action and slide action firearms are almost all push-feed.
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Old 07-24-2022, 9:53 PM
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Good choice, you can't go wrong with a new Winchester...

Please let's us know how she shoots
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Old 07-25-2022, 6:25 AM
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Please. Pictures on the new Winchester 1886 rifle?
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Old 07-25-2022, 7:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyhaulin818 View Post

A couple days ago I secured both a CITADDL LEVTAC .357 and a new RUGER made MARLIN TRAPPER so this WINCHESTER would just be a because I can rifle for me.

You're on your way to a well-rounded lever-action quiver o' long guns.

The Marlin (Ruger) Trapper should be a 16.5" barrel length, and a fairly light weight .45-70 carbine. The new Win '86 Short Rifle should have a barrel of 24" and weigh at least another pound.

If you do not yet handload, then the commercial, over-the-counter Remington CoreLokt (if you can find it) 405-grain semi-jacketed flat/soft point load is offered in at least two flavors: one is a mild "Safe For All Rifles"/"Trapdoor" load that should exit the 24" bore @ 1330 fps; a load you could shoot all day long. Same load from an 18.5" barrel, however, reads as 1050 fps... quite a difference in speed from the 1330 fps advertised on the box of cartridges.

Either way, that Trapdoor load though easy on the shoulder will shoot fairly flat to 100 yards (little to no holdover) but then drops like a brick shortly thereafter in distance.

The 24" gun should prove more fun than it should be when attempting mild 400 grain slug loads to 300 yards. There are videos around the internet of guys shooting these from sticks, some of them using black powder loads, all of them very mild, and lobbing them in like mortar rounds to 300 yards:

*boom*

*silence*

*DING*

*laughter*



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Old 07-25-2022, 9:34 AM
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Historical Rifles are fun to shoot even if tweaked slightly, I had the Single Shot Rifle bug awhile back, entirely different mindset. Highwall, Sharps, Remington, Ruger…….Martini Henry
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Old 07-25-2022, 10:25 AM
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Historical Rifles are fun to shoot even if tweaked slightly, I had the Single Shot Rifle bug awhile back, entirely different mindset. Highwall, Sharps, Remington, Ruger…….Martini Henry
Nothing wrong with single shot type rifles. I enjoy my Ruger No.1B[30-06] for it's accuracy and elegance. Do like those single shot rifles.

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Old 07-25-2022, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Controlled feed means that the bolt controls the cartridge from before the cartridge leaves the magazine through when the cartridge is fully chambered.
Think Mauser 98 and Win M70 where the claw extractor picks up the case rim BEFORE the cartridge is free of the feed rails in the receiver.

The 1886 is not a controlled feed design as the cartridge is free of the bolt until the cartridge is in the chamber all the way and the extractor finally snaps over the case rim.
Non-controlled feed guns are generally called push-feed because the bolt pushes the cartridge into the chamber until the cartridge stops and then the extractoe snaps over the case rim.

Lever action, pump action and slide action firearms are almost all push-feed.
Randall: I have to disagree with some of your CF definition. As long as the rim of the case slips under the extractor during the feed process it is "Controlled." If the extractor snaps over the rim as the action goes into battery,,, it's push feed.

Marlins trap the round against the inside top of the receiver as the round is pushed forward on the angled lifter it is forced under the extractor. This happens as soon as the round starts going forward as the rim is being pushed by the bolt face and as soon as the bolt has closed @1/2" the rim is captured.

Randy.
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Old 07-25-2022, 12:26 PM
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I would call the Marlin action "semi-CRF".



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Old 07-25-2022, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
Randall: I have to disagree with some of your CF definition. As long as the rim of the case slips under the extractor during the feed process it is "Controlled." If the extractor snaps over the rim as the action goes into battery,,, it's push feed.

Marlins trap the round against the inside top of the receiver as the round is pushed forward on the angled lifter it is forced under the extractor. This happens as soon as the round starts going forward as the rim is being pushed by the bolt face and as soon as the bolt has closed @1/2" the rim is captured.

Randy.
It's OK to disagree.
Disagreeing does not make someone a bad person.
It's ok to have different opinions.

I don't consider the marlin to be controlled feed because the cartridge is not controlled by the bolt/extractor before the cartridge leaves the magazine.
Being captured by the receiver and carrier is fine, but that's not really controlled feed as the extractor does not snap over the rim until the cartridge is in the chamber.
The bolt is push-feeding the cartridge into the chamber while the carrier and receiver control the cartridge so it's a semi-controlled push feed.

The 1911 pistol extractor works much as you describe the Marlin.
Would you consider the 1911 a controlled feed design?

I consider it a push feed because the cartridge is bouncing around willy-nilly several times before the extractor finally grabs the rim.
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Last edited by ar15barrels; 07-25-2022 at 12:44 PM..
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Old 07-25-2022, 1:56 PM
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Originally Posted by pennstater View Post
Nothing wrong with single shot type rifles. I enjoy my Ruger No.1B[30-06] for it's accuracy and elegance. Do like those single shot rifles.

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I did like them especially the Ruger #1 in 7mm Mauser which is Slim, Light, Compact, Accurate. I would love to hunt with it. I’m not really a Ruger Fan but the Single Shots are the exception.

Yes Elegant a description I can not put on anything else I own
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Old 07-25-2022, 2:32 PM
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I decided I am going to buy it,
Good choice, I have take-down and am sure you'll be happy with it.
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Old 07-26-2022, 2:06 AM
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Off topic, but 3 or 4 days ago, this web article appeared. Apparently Henry has a sort of new color case hardened side gate.
https://www.riflemagazine.com/henry-...ide-gate-rifle
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Old 07-26-2022, 9:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
It's OK to disagree.
Disagreeing does not make someone a bad person.
It's ok to have different opinions.

I don't consider the marlin to be controlled feed because the cartridge is not controlled by the bolt/extractor before the cartridge leaves the magazine.
Being captured by the receiver and carrier is fine, but that's not really controlled feed as the extractor does not snap over the rim until the cartridge is in the chamber.
The bolt is push-feeding the cartridge into the chamber while the carrier and receiver control the cartridge so it's a semi-controlled push feed.

The 1911 pistol extractor works much as you describe the Marlin.
Would you consider the 1911 a controlled feed design?

I consider it a push feed because the cartridge is bouncing around willy-nilly several times before the extractor finally grabs the rim.
Randall: there is no willy nilly, the cartridge is ejected from the magazine on to the lifter just after the lever is pushed fully forward, as soon as the lever starts to move back the cartridge is pinned to the top of the receiver, there is no bouncing around, as the bolt moves forward the cartridge is captured by the extractor.

I know this is NOT a Mauser Controlled Round Feed however it accomplishes 95% of those functions. The whole point of the Controlled Round Feed is the gun will feed and not drop rounds when it is upside down, like if you are laying on your back in a WW1 Trench.

The only time the cartridge can fall out of the Marlin Receiver is if the gun is tipped on its right side right when the cartridge is ejected onto the lifter . If the lever is operated smartly it doesn't have time to fall out.

You don't run a Marlin Action with the gun laying on its right side like if you are shooting under a car! If you were laying on your back in a trench the gun would be laying flat against your chest with the Ejection Port facing upwards,,, Hence the 95% CF

AS far as 1911's? Have you tried to get one of the Mauser/.45 ACP conversions to reliably feed off a 1911 magazine. I gave up and sold the gun!

Randy
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Old 07-26-2022, 10:03 PM
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Took a look at a CIMARRON color case hardened, 26” octagon barrel, 45-70 today and for it’s price...it was not much of a better looking/functioning rifle over the plain jane miroku winchester. Are the tang safety and rebounding hammers on the japanese 1886’s reason enough to buy one of the uberti/pedersoli cimarron’s instead? I understand that the rebounding hammers can lead to light strikes and the tang safety creates a challenge to add sights. Do either of these longer rifles have issues with leading more than shorter barrels? Is it necessary for reloads to be gas checked/lubed when shooting the longer barrels?
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Old 07-26-2022, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
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The only time the cartridge can fall out of the Marlin Receiver is if the gun is tipped on its right side right when the cartridge is ejected onto the lifter.
You have literally made my argument for me.
That's why I don't consider it a controlled feed action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
If the lever is operated smartly it doesn't have time to fall out.
Any push feed gun works fine sideways or even upside down when run smartly.
It's only specifically running them too slow that lets the uncontrolled round leave the action through gravity.

The difference in reliability between push feed and controlled feed guns ONLY shows up when they are used improperly.
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Old 07-27-2022, 7:17 PM
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I just found out that the CIMARRON is made by ARMI SPORTS? Are any of the replicas worth buying? The wood on most of these clones looks like it was sourced from WALMART furniture. Starting to think that maybe Marlin and Henry are the way to go...
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Old 07-27-2022, 7:27 PM
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The Winchester is a better investment and a better built gun....

So you decided not to buy it?
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Old 07-27-2022, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyhaulin818 View Post
I just found out that the CIMARRON is made by ARMI SPORTS? Are any of the replicas worth buying? The wood on most of these clones looks like it was sourced from WALMART furniture. Starting to think that maybe Marlin and Henry are the way to go...
Cimarron has always had a so so reputation. Some are great. Some not so much. It is just me but I would rather have the Pedersoli than the Winchester. I just have a hard time getting past the tang safety. That being said the Winchester is a great rifle. I believe it is made by Miroku. I have a Browning 1886, made by Miroku and it a great rifle.
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Old 07-31-2022, 4:54 PM
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FWIW the newer Winchester lever guns lose me with their tang mounted safety and rebounding hammer. I picked up a Model 1895 takedown in 405 a few years back, hadn't really paid attention to that aspect of the gun. Haven't really bothered with it. It's up in OR and will likely end up at a LGS for trading.

Really well made guns from what I can tell. But for me a traditional rifle should have traditional features.
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Old 08-04-2022, 6:30 PM
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Well, I decided to go with the Japanese Winchester 1886. The bluing is oh so sexy...I could not resist so I placed it on layaway. I think that to scratch my itch for a color casé hardened firearm I am gonna go with an UBERTI CATTLEMAN .45 LC.
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Old 08-05-2022, 4:35 PM
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I can't get past the hammer and safety either... BIL has a beautiful Miroku but it just doesn't have the "vibe" for me.
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Old 08-05-2022, 5:25 PM
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BIL? I have several other 45-70 lever rifles that the tang safety n rebounding hammer don’t mean anything to me. It holds 8 rounds, it’s beautiful, love the action, just different enough from all my other lever actions to not be boring or a regret...it is going to be a keeper for sure. I may place an order for a Miroku DELUXE CCH but Winchester customer service said it will be a two year wait...at least.
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Old 08-05-2022, 7:54 PM
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I don't mind the tang safety so much..... who am I kidding. I dislike both of em. I thought I could get past em.
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Old 08-05-2022, 8:04 PM
smittty smittty is offline
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Been searching for an 1886 and only one I have found locally is a GRADE I plain jane model. I contacted Winchester and was told the deluxe are 2 years out if I placed an order or 1 1/2 for the short rifle grade I. Kinda like the color case and finished stock of the deluxe but being reproductions, I don’t see them as having much collector value. I have several Marlins and HENRYS, but feel that even the reproductions are built more robustly plus being controlled feed...can be shot upside down. Only thing really holding me back is the stock, although it is walnut snd fit is excellent, it is just...plain. Anyone buy one and wish they had waited for a deluxe instead? A couple days ago I secured both a CITADDL LEVTAC .357 and a new RUGER made MARLIN TRAPPER so this WINCHESTER would just be a because I can rifle for me.
Wait for the deluxe!
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  #34  
Old 08-05-2022, 8:17 PM
smittty smittty is offline
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Well, I decided to go with the Japanese Winchester 1886. The bluing is oh so sexy...I could not resist so I placed it on layaway. I think that to scratch my itch for a color casé hardened firearm I am gonna go with an UBERTI CATTLEMAN .45 LC.
OK I'm too late!

The winchester deluxe has beautiful walnut, that's what you pay extra for and imo worth every penny.

My friend has the 92 deluxe takedown, the uberti case hardened 92, and the taurus lightening, all in 45 lc.

The winchester deluxe is by far the nicest in every way.

I was too cheap to buy one back when he got his and now I wish I did. This was around 8-10 years ago.

I went cheap route and bought a rossi 92, then sold it, bought another, sold it, bought another until a couple years ago bought a new one made by CBC brazil for Rossi and finally got a great one. I upgraded the stock to walnut.

Had I just bought that deluxe I'd have the nice wood and it would be takedown, and I think blew the same amount when I consider the loss every time I sold the cheap ones.

Hind sight??
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  #35  
Old 08-05-2022, 8:30 PM
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OK I'm too late!

The winchester deluxe has beautiful walnut, that's what you pay extra for and imo worth every penny.

My friend has the 92 deluxe takedown, the uberti case hardened 92, and the taurus lightening, all in 45 lc.

The winchester deluxe is by far the nicest in every way.

I was too cheap to buy one back when he got his and now I wish I did. This was around 8-10 years ago.

I went cheap route and bought a rossi 92, then sold it, bought another, sold it, bought another until a couple years ago bought a new one made by CBC brazil for Rossi and finally got a great oneI upgraded the stock to walnut.

Had I just bought that deluxe I'd have the nice wood and it would be takedown, and I think blew the same amount when I consider the loss every time I sold the cheap ones.

Hind sight??
Smitty, would you mind sharing where you purchased the walnut stocks from?

How much fitting was involved?

I'll bet that's a nice looking gun. IMO, Rossi does some of the best if not the best bluing of all the 92s. My Winchester 92 is nice but it's hard to beat my CBC gun, even the older Rossi's are excellent...
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  #36  
Old 08-05-2022, 8:40 PM
heavyhaulin818 heavyhaulin818 is offline
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I did already place an order for a Winchester Deluxe but it is going to be a long, long time before I see it. The 1886 Short rifle is still a beaut of a gun, the thing I liked about it was that I can scratch the wood and I can just sand it then oil it again. This one I could not pass up knowing how long Winchester will be out. I could have bought an 1886 color case with octagon barrel but it was an Armi Sports gun and the very little information I could find was sorta negative so I passed.
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Old 08-06-2022, 3:59 PM
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Smitty, would you mind sharing where you purchased the walnut stocks from?

How much fitting was involved?

I'll bet that's a nice looking gun. IMO, Rossi does some of the best if not the best bluing of all the 92s. My Winchester 92 is nice but it's hard to beat my CBC gun, even the older Rossi's are excellent...
I bought from boyds but neither butt nor front fit and needed extensive amount of fitting. It took me 6 months to re-inlet, epoxy, inlet, repeat many times until it fit well enough for me to leave it. I also cut off the butt plate and installed a recoil pad to get a bit more length of pull and then had to refinished it but that's a given with boyds because their clear finish is really ugly and I like oil rubbed finish.

I removed the safety and plugged the hole. With the modifications done this gun is a treasure and it shoots exceptionally well. 357 mag and 38 sp shoot to same windage which I know to be a rare find, 38 sp prints just a bit lower.

As you can probably tell, I love this rifle!

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Old 08-06-2022, 4:08 PM
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Smitty, would you mind sharing where you purchased the walnut stocks from?

How much fitting was involved?

I'll bet that's a nice looking gun. IMO, Rossi does some of the best if not the best bluing of all the 92s. My Winchester 92 is nice but it's hard to beat my CBC gun, even the older Rossi's are excellent...
Something to note, Rossi doesn't stamp a warning into their guns. This is purely personal preference but I strongly dislike the warnings marked on guns.

I have some guns with it but I find it offensively ugly!
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  #39  
Old 08-06-2022, 5:43 PM
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I bought from boyds but neither butt nor front fit and needed extensive amount of fitting. It took me 6 months to re-inlet, epoxy, inlet, repeat many times until it fit well enough for me to leave it. I also cut off the butt plate and installed a recoil pad to get a bit more length of pull and then had to refinished it but that's a given with boyds because their clear finish is really ugly and I like oil rubbed finish.

I removed the safety and plugged the hole. With the modifications done this gun is a treasure and it shoots exceptionally well. 357 mag and 38 sp shoot to same windage which I know to be a rare find, 38 sp prints just a bit lower.

As you can probably tell, I love this rifle!

You did a hec of a job. Its a beautiful gun....with the awesome job that Rossi does with bluing, it's just doesn't get any better. I'll bet its slick as snot too..

I just broke down my newer .357 20" CBC gun. I'm gonna see if I can get the wood a little darker. The barrel is tweaked pretty bad to the left, Its like it was over tightened. If it wasn't such a good shooter I'd send it back to Miami.

Thanks for the info.

Now I have to find my Winchester 92 and see if it has a warning label.
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Last edited by golfish; 08-06-2022 at 6:03 PM..
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  #40  
Old 08-06-2022, 5:49 PM
heavyhaulin818 heavyhaulin818 is offline
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That is one gorgeous rifle, I am jealous. My ROSSI has the stock wood furniture that looks like glazed walnuts from China Buffet. I don’t think there is enough wood there to sand all that off and go oiled. I had a Marlin CSBL that would not run 38’s reliably. Turner’s has the ROSSI SS/WOOD R92’s in .44 mag currently. I want one in .454 Casull.

Last edited by heavyhaulin818; 08-06-2022 at 5:55 PM..
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