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  #1  
Old 11-10-2019, 8:03 PM
DGoodale DGoodale is offline
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Default Case forming questions

I have a bunch of 22-250 cases that I've been using for quite some time. After annealing, the cases do not feed well, it's a Rem 700 varmint. New cases feed fine.
Prior to this I was just neck sizing and they worked great, they probably have about 6-8 firings on them. Now, having been annealed, even after full length resizing using either a Forster comp FL die or a Redding FL die they still don't fit well and take some effort to work the bolt. Will these fire form back to the chamber or are these cases toast? I don't need a stuck bolt.
Here's a pic of the cases after FL sizing. The ring is the only contact on the case. I used some layout fluid and this is the only place where it's making contact.
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Old 11-11-2019, 2:39 PM
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Is your sizing die contacting the shell holder and the end of the stroke? It looks like the die is stopping "short" and leaving a short length of the case un-sized. The case taper should continue up to the shoulder and it appears that a little of it is left straight walled instead if tapered.

jmho...
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Old 11-11-2019, 3:11 PM
baih777 baih777 is online now
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Adjust your die tighter 1/16th of a turn at a time till your cases cycle.
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Old 11-11-2019, 6:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofbak View Post
Is your sizing die contacting the shell holder and the end of the stroke? It looks like the die is stopping "short" and leaving a short length of the case un-sized. The case taper should continue up to the shoulder and it appears that a little of it is left straight walled instead if tapered.

jmho...
Die makes good contact with shell plate. It's a cam-over single stage.
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Old 11-11-2019, 6:18 PM
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Originally Posted by baih777 View Post
Adjust your die tighter 1/16th of a turn at a time till your cases cycle.
I'll try, but if I go much more it won't cam over, which isn't the worst but just jars to a stop at the top of the stroke.
Oh the case fits and looks good in a go/no go gauge.
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Old 11-11-2019, 6:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofbak View Post
Is your sizing die contacting the shell holder and the end of the stroke? It looks like the die is stopping "short" and leaving a short length of the case un-sized. The case taper should continue up to the shoulder and it appears that a little of it is left straight walled instead if tapered.

jmho...
Quote:
Originally Posted by baih777 View Post
Adjust your die tighter 1/16th of a turn at a time till your cases cycle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGoodale View Post
I'll try, but if I go much more it won't cam over, which isn't the worst but just jars to a stop at the top of the stroke.
Oh the case fits and looks good in a go/no go gauge.
Well, my apologies. This is one time I'm glad to be wrong. I guess I should go back to the basics. I tightened the die down and test fed in the gun before and after and it solved the problem. The brass would barely go into battery before and after it went right in. Thanks! Dave
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  #7  
Old 11-11-2019, 9:08 PM
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that's why FL resizing is the only way to go. At some point with neck sizing, you will need to FL size.

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  #8  
Old 11-13-2019, 10:51 AM
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^^^OK. I think the message in your vid is "Full Length Resize-always."

But several comments in the vid lead me to a question. Are all these elite marksmen using custom machined dies to get that .002" clearance many of them mentioned?

Seems that the SAAMI tolerances on case and chamber would make that .002" a difficult relation to achieve with commercially sold rifles and dies-unless you got lucky or handpicked each unit to match.
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Old 11-13-2019, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofbak View Post
^^^OK. I think the message in your vid is "Full Length Resize-always."

But several comments in the vid lead me to a question. Are all these elite marksmen using custom machined dies to get that .002" clearance many of them mentioned?

Seems that the SAAMI tolerances on case and chamber would make that .002" a difficult relation to achieve with commercially sold rifles and dies-unless you got lucky or handpicked each unit to match.
0.002" headspace clearance can be achieved with any die (assuming the chamber and die was made properly). For example, if you buy Whidden 6.5 creedmoore dies and use it for a 6.5 creedmoore chamberred Ruger RPR, you can easily bump the shoulder back 0.002". You do not need custom dies per se.

The reason for FL resizing is two fold:

* It provides clearance in the chamber to allow for the brass case to expand and therefore, contract, making it easier to eject the case.

* When sizing a case in a FL die, the case will be sized the same way every time. This is as consistent as you can get. When neck sizing, you assume the case expands and contracts consistently every time. This assumption is debunked because one typically has to FL size a case at some point because the case itself will not fit in the chamber or the case gets harder and harder to extract or close the bolt on.
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Old 11-13-2019, 11:41 AM
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So it's headspace clearance. When I heard that number mentioned many times I was also thinking of diametral clearance between case body and chamber wall.

Thanx! But please be careful with that phrase "b*mp the sh**ld*r-or you-know-who might show up😨.
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Old 11-13-2019, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DGoodale View Post
Die makes good contact with shell plate. It's a cam-over single stage.
WITH the case in the shelholder?
Put a flashlight behind the ram facing towards you.
Place a case in the shellholder and run it all the way up.
Look between the bottom of the die and the top of the shellholder.
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Old 11-13-2019, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofbak View Post
So it's headspace clearance. When I heard that number mentioned many times I was also thinking of diametral clearance between case body and chamber wall.

Thanx! But please be careful with that phrase "b*mp the sh**ld*r-or you-know-who might show up😨.
The body itself is also sized down. In my die, the portion just below the shoulder is sized down from its fired size, about 0.002" (0.001" on each side). Generally speaking, this follows all the way to the web area of the case.
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Old 11-13-2019, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
WITH the case in the shelholder?
Put a flashlight behind the ram facing towards you.
Place a case in the shellholder and run it all the way up.
Look between the bottom of the die and the top of the shellholder.
The shell holder was empty and made what I thought to be good contact with the die. However after extending the die a little bit more and requiring a bit more force to cam over it successfully resize the case.
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Old 11-13-2019, 3:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DGoodale View Post
The shell holder was empty and made what I thought to be good contact with the die.
However after extending the die a little bit more and requiring a bit more force to cam over it successfully resize the case.
Do you now understand that the PRESS FRAME stretches and the press linkage compresses during sizing and that there WAS a gap between your die and shellholder during sizing?
That gap is what made it possible to size the case MORE by screwing the die down more.
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Old 11-13-2019, 3:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bsumoba View Post
The body itself is also sized down. In my die, the portion just below the shoulder is sized down from its fired size, about 0.002" (0.001" on each side). Generally speaking, this follows all the way to the web area of the case.
I still don't see how you hold .002 to .003" clearance.

Looking at SAAMI spec drawings for 6.5 creedmore, the case dia at the shoulder is 0.4620". The chamber dia at the shoulder is 0.4630". Ten thou "nominal" diametral clearance.

If I'm using a commercial die made to SAAMI specs with a rifle chamber reamed ro SAAMI specs, how do I close that clearance of .010" down to your stated clearance of .002"?
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Old 11-13-2019, 3:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sofbak View Post
Looking at SAAMI spec drawings for 6.5 creedmore, the case dia at the shoulder is 0.4620".
The chamber dia at the shoulder is 0.4630".
Ten thou "nominal" diametral clearance.
Don't you mean ONE thousandth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sofbak View Post
I still don't see how you hold .002 to .003" clearance.

Looking at SAAMI spec drawings for 6.5 creedmore, the case dia at the shoulder is 0.4620". The chamber dia at the shoulder is 0.4630". Ten thou "nominal" diametral clearance.

If I'm using a commercial die made to SAAMI specs with a rifle chamber reamed ro SAAMI specs, how do I close that clearance of .010" down to your stated clearance of .002"?
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Old 11-13-2019, 3:42 PM
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DOH!!!! Thankyou.

Never tey technical stuff after a contntious discussion with the wife😠😠.
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Old 11-14-2019, 5:10 AM
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Lou Murdica isn't using Whidden dies and his benchrest brass is tighter fitting than any F-Class shooters brass on the entire video. He says in the video for this type of shooting/reloading for a reason.

And saying that brass is consistent because it fits the chamber each time after full length sizing is truly brilliant.
Once you have clearance no matter how much or how inconsistent it fits.
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Old 11-14-2019, 4:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofbak View Post
So it's headspace clearance. When I heard that number mentioned many times I was also thinking of diametral clearance between case body and chamber wall.
Quote:
Thanx! But please be careful with that phrase "b*mp the sh**ld*r-or you-know-who might show up��.

The body itself is also sized down. In my die, the portion just below the shoulder is sized down from its fired size, about 0.002" (0.001" on each side). Generally speaking, this follows all the way to the web area of the case.
With Internet reloaders anything is possible; all that is necessary from the claims department is for one of the members in the claims department is to claim it is possible or they can claim they can do 'it'.

I am not a member of the claims department; but I do know something about case artifacts. I have blank cases that have been opened up to 35 Whelen. I have never sild any of the cases to unsuspecting purchasers but I did notice blank cases being offered for sale on Ebay that were formed from blank 30/06 cases. I could tell from the artifacts in the case.

And then there are those in the claims department that insist they can bump and or move the shoulder back; same thing, artifacts of the old case before sizing should indicate to the reloader it is impossible to move the shoulder back. It is possible to shorten the case from the shoulder to the case head but it is imposable to move the shoulder back when doing it.

There should be a reloader on this forum that can explain how he moves the shoulder back; he could even include a the method he uses to 'bump' the shoulder back.

Me? I say it is impossible to move the shoulder back and then there are all of those that claim they have bump dies. The full length sizing die has case body support; that means nothing to a member of the claims department but the fact the die has full case body support makes bumping and or moving the shoulder back impossible.

And then there is 'on the one hand' and there is 'on the other hand'. In one hand the reloader has a full length sizing die and in the other a seating die. In one hand he has a full length sizing die that will not allow the shoulder to be moved back; in the other hand he has a seating die that will allow the reloader to move the shoulder back because it does not have case body support.

F, Guffey
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Old 11-14-2019, 4:28 PM
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I knew this was going to happen......
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Old 11-14-2019, 5:03 PM
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Sofbak
Ignore Guffey he knows nothing about the terminology used in today's reloading circles. He is trying to let you know that as the shoulder gets moved the brass itself hasn't changed its location but a new shoulder has been formed and it could have most of the old shoulder still contained within it. So if your shoulder sits 2 inches from the casehead and you move it to 1.5 inches from the casehead you have replaced one shoulder with another shoulder but you haven't moved the original brass you just turned it into the neck.
It is commonly called being a semantics *****.
For the average tactical or F-Class shooter full length sizing will allow the brass to chamber easily and they are not after gilt edge accuracy so it works for what they need.
On a bench only gun group size determines the winner not your score so full length sizing means the die matches the chamber as closely as humanly possible and a single die starts at over $400 and some will exceed twice that. You need to stick with one reamer and one gunsmith so you don't overwork your brass.
The video shows F-Class shooters one current benchrest shooter and one past benchrest shooter.
The current benchrest shooter says in the video for this type of shooting you can full length size. He was talking about F-class not benchrest.
Just trying to clarify.
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Old 11-14-2019, 5:09 PM
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Thanjs for the clarification. As I suspected, "elite" benchrest shooters custom match dies and chambers.
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Old 11-14-2019, 5:18 PM
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Exactly. Those dies are bought in 0.0005 increments or half a thousandth.
Jerry Tierney a F-Class shooter on par with Larry Bartholome in the video cleaned his guns every 2nd or 3rd match something you will never see at a benchrest match.
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Old 11-14-2019, 9:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
Lou Murdica isn't using Whidden dies and his benchrest brass is tighter fitting than any F-Class shooters brass on the entire video. He says in the video for this type of shooting/reloading for a reason.

And saying that brass is consistent because it fits the chamber each time after full length sizing is truly brilliant.
Once you have clearance no matter how much or how inconsistent it fits.
I think you are misleading people. Everyone, go to the video I have in my previous post and go to 2:55. Lou Murdica tells you exactly what the modern day BR and F-Class shooter does. And if you do not want to watch it, he says FL size, he says there is no loss in accuracy when FL sizing, he says people used to neck size but now nearly everyone in BR FL size. And the most damaging part of his statement is, when neck sizing you will see a differnece in pressure testing and we know pressure differences is horrible for accuracy as you go further out in distance.

A lot of things have changed and the greatest changes to the reloading and equipment have occurred while you have been out of the game.

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Old 11-15-2019, 6:11 AM
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Actually nothing has changed much at all but you need more reloading experience to fully realize that.
Full length sizing in Benchrest is not the same as full length sizing in F-Class/Tactical. The brass fit in Benchrest is much tighter.
And the pressure he is talking about comes from the constriction and is minimal at best.
Today's F-Class/Tactical shooters have better dies available to them like those from Warner Tool so when you combine better brass control with new annealers that actually work consistently you get better results.
The smallest group ever fired is still 20+ times smaller than anything most will ever see and the brass had 8 firings with neck sized brass.
When you start using tuners you will be up to 2005.
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Old 11-16-2019, 6:45 AM
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Quote:
I knew this was going to happen......
If I tell you a chicken dips snuff, don't argue; all you have to do is look under its wings to determine if it carries the little can under its right wing or left wing.

I tell you it is impossible to move the shoulder back, I tell you it is impossible to bump the shoulder back, I tell you 'bump' is a function of the press, I tell you the picture in post one proves it.

And? You got nothing, All I expect from anyone is an explanation' one that explains how a reloader can move the shoulder back, and then there are all the others that think they are reloaders because they start a sentence with "I bump" and I ask "How do you do that"?

All I get back are responses from reloaders that act like they are in elementary class, How is it possible to move the shoulder back when sizing with a die that has full body support.

I started by trying to move the shoulder back, it I had managed to move the shoulder back with a full case body support die the volume of the case would have been reduced; It is impossible to move the shoulder back, the shoulder the reloaders starts with is not the same shoulder he finishes with.

F. Guffey
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Old 11-16-2019, 6:53 AM
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Quote:
Is your sizing die contacting the shell holder and the end of the stroke? It looks like the die is stopping "short" and leaving a short length of the case un-sized. The case taper should continue up to the shoulder and it appears that a little of it is left straight walled instead if tapered.

jmho...
To determine if the die made it to the shell holder measure the distance from the bottom of the die to the top of the shell holder. If the die does not make it to the shell holder there will be a gap; UNSIZED? Again, you are looking at an artifact.

Back to the 'righty' or 'lefty' chicken; the artifact proves the shoulder the OP started with is not the same shoulder he finished with.

F. Guffey
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