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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #521  
Old 02-20-2020, 11:43 AM
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I can see it being beneficial to those of us with BBRAWs. Thereís no actual law saying we canít take off our BBís, but it is implied and was a requirement per the registration guidelines.

Even more fun for those of us with Raddlocks haha
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  #522  
Old 02-20-2020, 2:00 PM
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If St. Benitez ejoins PC30600 and PC30605 from enforcement, then remove your BBs or any other modification to any of your SA sporting firearms (no ATF mods e.g. FA, SBR etc. )
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  #523  
Old 02-20-2020, 3:53 PM
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You just know there's going to be people getting busted with SBRs that they built after the ruling, because people don't know the difference between state and federal law.
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  #524  
Old 02-20-2020, 8:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Echidin View Post
So those who didnít register and went featureless are SOL or am I reading into that wrong?
IF there is any change to how currently registered AW's can be configured, only people with currently registered assault weapons will benefit.
Registered assault weapons are exempt of all the "features" based restrictions already.
The only restrictions on configuration are some regulations (not laws) that state that the bullet button must remain on the gun.
That regulation is concerning the registration process and should not technically apply after the registration process is completed.
The registry is closed so it's not possible to register new assault weapons until a new law is passed that re-defines assault weapons again and forces the registry open to register those that were not considered assault weapons under past definitions.

If there is any sort of freedom week 2.0, you could likely add features to your featureless rifle until the injunction is rescinded.
Assuming there is a week before the next judge rescinds the injunction, you could have a featured rifle for a week.
Then you would need to go back to featureless again.
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  #525  
Old 02-20-2020, 8:20 PM
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Thanks for that detailed breakdown, Randall.
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  #526  
Old 02-20-2020, 10:03 PM
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Default Miller v. Becerra, SDCA - Challenging the ban on "assault weapons"

While I have high hopes for the outcome of this case, certain YouTubers have been pushing idea that the outcome will be another ďFreedom Week.Ē I believe thatís why weíre seeing so many of these misinformed comments.

Iím probably wrong, but part of me feels like these comments and the widespread publicity of the YouTube videos influencing them could affect things negatively.

Last edited by CZebra; 02-20-2020 at 10:07 PM..
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  #527  
Old 02-20-2020, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by CZebra View Post
While I have high hopes for the outcome of this case, certain YouTubers have been pushing idea that the outcome will be another ďFreedom Week.Ē I believe thatís why weíre seeing so many of these misinformed comments.

Iím probably wrong, but part of me feels like these comments and the widespread publicity of the YouTube videos influencing them could affect things negatively.
The court challenges are going to be determined on the merits of the case. I really don't see where discussion forum content would have any influence on the court.

The real bottom line is that we're not really going to know where we stand until there is a final decision on the pending cases. Benitez looks like a really good judge for a trial court in the Miller and Duncan cases. But the trial court ruling will not be the final one in either case. It's pretty much a guarantee that the Ninth Circuit will hear an appeal and there is always the potential for an en banc rehearing and for a SCOTUS appeal.
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  #528  
Old 02-20-2020, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
The court challenges are going to be determined on the merits of the case. I really don't see where discussion forum content would have any influence on the court.



The real bottom line is that we're not really going to know where we stand until there is a final decision on the pending cases. Benitez looks like a really good judge for a trial court in the Miller and Duncan cases. But the trial court ruling will not be the final one in either case. It's pretty much a guarantee that the Ninth Circuit will hear an appeal and there is always the potential for an en banc rehearing and for a SCOTUS appeal.


I understand that. I donít actually believe that forum discussion content will affect the outcome of the case (hence my preface to that statement), but the sort of cringey publicity of it all leaves a bad taste in my mouth as Iím sure it does in the mouths of certain lawmakers and authorities.


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  #529  
Old 02-21-2020, 5:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Dirk Tungsten View Post
You just know there's going to be people getting busted with SBRs that they built after the ruling, because people don't know the difference between state and federal law.
Those people are already building SBR's.
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  #530  
Old 02-21-2020, 5:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
People who didn't register BBRAWs are going to be so pissed if it turns out to be advantageous to have BBRAWs.
I always recommended people register everything they had, and then to buy lowers that were ineligible for registration due to purchase after the window closed. Cheap insurance in just such an eventuality.
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  #531  
Old 02-21-2020, 6:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Dirk Tungsten View Post
You just know there's going to be people getting busted with SBRs that they built after the ruling, because people don't know the difference between state and federal law.
Just like with marijuana....

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  #532  
Old 02-21-2020, 11:23 AM
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  #533  
Old 02-21-2020, 12:45 PM
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I feel like all this chatter regarding Duncan Vs. Becerra is a bit off topic...

Just a random feeling I have
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  #534  
Old 02-21-2020, 6:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Uncivil Engineer View Post
Wait, so a 50bmg bolt action pistol is California legal. Not a rifle and roster exempt as bolt action? What FFL will ship a Barrett Model 99 with a "brace" to California?
Don't even joke about a production handgun chambered in 50 BMG. If there was one, it would change the classification of most mil surplus and many match grade bullets. FFLs would not be able to sell them because, they would be reclassified as armor piercing bullets. The entire .50 community would suffer immensely. I really don't know why anyone would have a Barrett 99 as their first choice in 50s but, if you want a 99 chambered in 50 BMG, find someone who is willing to convert it to a non "rifle" long gun. Redesign it to be designed to be impossible to fire from the shoulder and then watch CA DOJ go nuts.
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  #535  
Old 02-21-2020, 7:13 PM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Don't even joke about a production handgun chambered in 50 BMG. If there was one, it would change the classification of most mil surplus and many match grade bullets. FFLs would not be able to sell them because, they would be reclassified as armor piercing bullets. The entire .50 community would suffer immensely. I really don't know why anyone would have a Barrett 99 as their first choice in 50s but, if you want a 99 chambered in 50 BMG, find someone who is willing to convert it to a non "rifle" long gun. Redesign it to be designed to be impossible to fire from the shoulder and then watch CA DOJ go nuts.
Technically, you can't make a handgun chambered in .50 BMG. Handgun caliber is measured by the diameter of the bore groove-to-groove, whereas rifle caliber is measured by the diameter of the bore land-to-land. Therefore, if someone were to chamber a handgun in .50 BMG, it would be a .510 caliber firearm, which would cause the firearm to be reclassified as a destructive device. This is why ".50 BMG" uses .510 bullets, whereas .500 S&W has to use .500" bullets.
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  #536  
Old 02-21-2020, 8:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBot12 View Post
I feel like all this chatter regarding Duncan Vs. Becerra is a bit off topic...

Just a random feeling I have
I have the same feeling. 10 posts deleted - the Duncan thread is http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...php?p=23866593
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  #537  
Old 02-21-2020, 9:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
I have the same feeling. 10 posts deleted - the Duncan thread is http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...php?p=23866593
You’re doing this wrong. The Duncan arguments here were actually directed to Miller because much of the Miller arguments were based on Duncan.

Last edited by taperxz; 02-22-2020 at 5:35 AM..
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  #538  
Old 02-21-2020, 9:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBot12 View Post
I feel like all this chatter regarding Duncan Vs. Becerra is a bit off topic...

Just a random feeling I have
Maybe if you had a better understanding of the testimony in Miller, you would get why Duncan is so relevant in this case.
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  #539  
Old 02-22-2020, 6:57 AM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Don't even joke about a production handgun chambered in 50 BMG. If there was one, it would change the classification of most mil surplus and many match grade bullets. FFLs would not be able to sell them because, they would be reclassified as armor piercing bullets. The entire .50 community would suffer immensely. I really don't know why anyone would have a Barrett 99 as their first choice in 50s but, if you want a 99 chambered in 50 BMG, find someone who is willing to convert it to a non "rifle" long gun. Redesign it to be designed to be impossible to fire from the shoulder and then watch CA DOJ go nuts.
So there's a few 50bmg pistols some are home made and some are custom-made but they do exist
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  #540  
Old 02-22-2020, 9:01 AM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post


Maybe if you had a better understanding of the testimony in Miller, you would get why Duncan is so relevant in this case.
Iím well aware of the arguments using the Duncan case. Itís the reason why this was allowed to be transferred to Hon. Benitez.

The posts that Librarian cut were solely in regards to Duncan without tie ins to Miller vs. Becerra.

This is now off topic lol
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  #541  
Old 02-22-2020, 9:42 AM
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Originally Posted by BBot12 View Post
Iím well aware of the arguments using the Duncan case. Itís the reason why this was allowed to be transferred to Hon. Benitez.

The posts that Librarian cut were solely in regards to Duncan without tie ins to Miller vs. Becerra.

This is now off topic lol
In order to put Miller in context, its important to talk about the nuances of Duncan though IMHO
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  #542  
Old 02-23-2020, 6:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.patriot1776 View Post
So there's a few 50bmg pistols some are home made and some are custom-made but they do exist
Yes, they have existed for decades.
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  #543  
Old 02-23-2020, 7:47 PM
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Can we stop the 50 bmg pistol nonsense.
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  #544  
Old 02-25-2020, 8:37 AM
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So for those that take issue with RickD427's mention of CA DOJ "manufacture", just look to the red box preface in the OAG safe handgun roster list:

https://www.oag.ca.gov/firearms/cert...andguns/search

pretty clearly states what Rick has been telling us.
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  #545  
Old 02-25-2020, 9:02 AM
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Originally Posted by 1911su16b870 View Post
So for those that take issue with RickD427's mention of CA DOJ "manufacture", just look to the red box preface in the OAG safe handgun roster list:

https://www.oag.ca.gov/firearms/cert...andguns/search

pretty clearly states what Rick has been telling us.
single shot ≠ bolt action repeater
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  #546  
Old 02-25-2020, 9:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butlers View Post
single shot ≠ bolt action repeater
bolt action repeater also ≠ semi-auto repeater which is why conversion could be considered manufacturing of a semi-auto pistol that would be unsafe because it does not meet the requirements to make it legal to manufacturer in CA.
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  #547  
Old 02-25-2020, 9:51 AM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
bolt action repeater also ≠ semi-auto repeater which is why conversion could be considered manufacturing of a semi-auto pistol that would be unsafe because it does not meet the requirements to make it legal to manufacturer in CA.
ar15barrels,

I find your argument persuasive, but until someone volunteers to be a test case, no one knows for sure.

My point was that citing text from the DOJ website is not dispositive because the language is unclear.

Franklin Armory obviously lawyered up and deliberately made/marketed their pistol as a "bolt action repeater" and not a "single shot" pistol for a reason.

Respectfully,
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  #548  
Old 02-25-2020, 9:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
bolt action repeater also ≠ semi-auto repeater which is why conversion could be considered manufacturing of a semi-auto pistol that would be unsafe because it does not meet the requirements to make it legal to manufacturer in CA.
Bolt action=Single action which is exempt from the roster.

Yet buying a single action revolver and then deciding to make it double action has not been illegal to do after you own it.

The roster only controls what an FFL can sell from their inventory. It does not prevent off roster on PPTs from being sold or transferring exempt handguns which includes PPTs, out of state transfers from the proper family lineage or single action revolvers.

Why the warning on the CA7 pistol? Looks like an Allison moment to me.

Based on their CA7 claim, it would be illegal to change any part on a rostered handgun yet millions install new barrels, after market mags, triggers, paint, grips and springs which would also make that pistol or double action revolver, off roster

Last edited by taperxz; 02-25-2020 at 9:54 AM..
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  #549  
Old 02-25-2020, 9:57 AM
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Originally Posted by butlers View Post
ar15barrels,

I find your argument persuasive, but until someone volunteers to be a test case, no one knows for sure.

My point was that citing text from the DOJ website is not dispositive because the language is unclear.

Franklin Armory obviously lawyered up and deliberately made/marketed their pistol as a "bolt action repeater" and not a "single shot" pistol for a reason.

Respectfully,
butlers
In my opinion, Franklin rostered that gun and their previous single shot for one reason. It was to stick their finger in DOJs eye!
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  #550  
Old 02-25-2020, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
In my opinion, Franklin rostered that gun and their previous single shot for one reason. It was to stick their finger in DOJs eye!
^^^THIS^^^^

IMHO Franklin Armory is doing a most outstanding job of exploiting both deficiencies in statute, and in DOJ business practices, and they are doing it by very deliberate design.

I often go on the warpath regarding California's approach to lawmaking. Over the year's we've created a hodgepodge of laws that make little sense, are nearly impossible to enforce, fail to deliver the benefits promised, and all at a large cost.

When California first made murder illegal, the law proscribing murder contained only eleven words. Anybody could read it and understand it.

California's current statute proscribing domestic violence has more than a thousand words and those words don't always fit together so good. Cops kinda need a lawyer to figure out what the law really says, and that doesn't make for effective enforcement (and often validates the old adage - Ask any two lawyers the same question and you'll get three unreconcilable opinions).

I may not personally agree with all of Franklin Armory's opinions, but I do applaud there efforts to keep the system honest.
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  #551  
Old 02-25-2020, 2:42 PM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
Bolt action=Single action which is exempt from the roster.

Yet buying a single action revolver and then deciding to make it double action has not been illegal to do after you own it.

The roster only controls what an FFL can sell from their inventory. It does not prevent off roster on PPTs from being sold or transferring exempt handguns which includes PPTs, out of state transfers from the proper family lineage or single action revolvers.

Why the warning on the CA7 pistol? Looks like an Allison moment to me.

Based on their CA7 claim, it would be illegal to change any part on a rostered handgun yet millions install new barrels, after market mags, triggers, paint, grips and springs which would also make that pistol or double action revolver, off roster
As we make the DOJ more and more aware of the shortcomings of their laws, I would bet that they will correct those shortcomings with regulations.
They care MUCH more about semi-auto pistols than double action revolvers would be my guess on why they are not going after that.
Their newer interpretations that changing the operation mode of a handgun is akin to remanufacturing the handgun and therefore IS manufacturing an unsafe handgun will eventually work their way over to all types of handguns and parts swapping.
Just give the legislative creep the time it needs and keep debating about it loudly so they can read what we do not want to happen.
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  #552  
Old 02-25-2020, 4:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
As we make the DOJ more and more aware of the shortcomings of their laws, I would bet that they will correct those shortcomings with regulations.
They care MUCH more about semi-auto pistols than double action revolvers would be my guess on why they are not going after that.
Their newer interpretations that changing the operation mode of a handgun is akin to remanufacturing the handgun and therefore IS manufacturing an unsafe handgun will eventually work their way over to all types of handguns and parts swapping.
Just give the legislative creep the time it needs and keep debating about it loudly so they can read what we do not want to happen.
Do you really think they donít know? They do!
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  #553  
Old 02-25-2020, 7:20 PM
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Do you really think they donít know? They do!
Of course they do. Their agents plow through this site. Statist, Marxist progs and apparatchiks, creating their Left state utopia upon everyone else's backs.

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  #554  
Old 02-26-2020, 3:19 AM
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�� Kalifornia and it goons.
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  #555  
Old 02-26-2020, 3:14 PM
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Very few cases where the government doesn't know about the deficiencies or will not become aware of them.

Several things, however:

1. There are likely governmental employees who think the State is nuts and aren't going to go to their bosses to get reasonable items banned.
2. Someone, somewhere is going to talk about or actually do something to show how dumb the law is. Trying to avoid that here likely won't work.
3. Allowed practices are features of the law. The law gets pretty specific and simply doing something they didn't outlaw is not illegal or inherently unethical. It's sort of like if the State tells you that you cannot use a fork to eat soup doesn't mean that you can't use a spoon instead.
4. Our only hope is actually that SCOTUS will eventually get around to protecting our rights in an effective manner. Since Kennedy is no longer on the SCOTUS there is a pretty good chance that will happen. SCOTUS may invalidate a whole lot of what Kalifornia has done although it may take additional litigation to make Kalifornia comply.

Seriously, the 9th Circuit is no longer likely to be totally irrational and happy to ignore typical practices in the pursuit of destroying our right to self-defense. Some balance has been restored.

I have this vague and quite unrealistic hope that a sort of philosophical balance in the numbers could result in a bit of moderation of positions and we could have a court whose members don't just rubber-stamp the position of their political party.
__________________
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Last edited by OleCuss; 02-26-2020 at 3:19 PM..
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  #556  
Old 02-27-2020, 3:07 AM
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losangeleno losangeleno is offline
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Question POSSIBLE FREEDOM 2.0

So if we get a bone thrown our way, does the 30" OAL (over all length) for long guns also get dropped seeing that it is part of Ca. AWB?

Last edited by losangeleno; 02-27-2020 at 3:40 AM..
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Old 02-27-2020, 3:56 AM
Munny$hot Munny$hot is offline
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So if we get a bone thrown our way, does the 30" OAL (over all length) for long guns also get dropped seeing that it is part of Ca. AWB?
If you have a registered BBRAW or RAW the over all length requirement is 26" or greater for long guns. 30" OAL is required for featureless and featured fix mag long guns.
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Old 02-27-2020, 4:08 AM
Transient Transient is offline
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So if we get a bone thrown our way, does the 30" OAL (over all length) for long guns also get dropped seeing that it is part of Ca. AWB?
I'm not interested in bones, but my dog is. If the ruling is favorable, does this make him a legal beagle?

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Old 02-27-2020, 5:08 PM
CAsubject CAsubject is offline
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Some folks here really want their registration to pay off, lmfao...
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  #560  
Old 02-27-2020, 8:19 PM
pratchett pratchett is offline
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Some folks here really want their registration to pay off, lmfao...
If thatís directed at me, no. lmfao. ao. lol. o.
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