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  #1  
Old 11-23-2022, 7:17 AM
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Default Well that's disappointing

I used to have my C&R license in college and until I started having kids and funds got a bit tight. I would buy a lot of junk guns at out of state auctions and either fix them up or use them for parts to refurb others. I have a bunch of cool .22's I got this way. I regularly spent $25-$50 on rifles. I have been watching auctions again and am in a position where I could afford to do this again. I was planning on getting my FFL-03+COE and resuming this collecting but just realized that in 2015 the law changed and I cannot have the rifles direct shipped to me. An FFL fee will make this type of collecting cost prohibitive so I guess this is a thing of the past. This sucks.
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Old 11-23-2022, 7:48 AM
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Yeah, it’s too bad. It was fun times having all manner of C&R show up on your doorstep, haha!!

You can still buy C&R FTF in CA and import C&R from OoS with 03/COE.

Now, I keep my 03/COE for online ammo sales and for the 1-in-30 exemption on all firearms.
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Old 11-23-2022, 8:23 AM
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Originally Posted by joefrank64k View Post
Yeah, it痴 too bad. It was fun times having all manner of C&R show up on your doorstep, haha!!

You can still buy C&R FTF in CA and import C&R from OoS with 03/COE.

Now, I keep my 03/COE for online ammo sales and for the 1-in-30 exemption on all firearms.
Yeah but you don't get the same deals you get on auctions all over the place. Everyone in CA wants a butt load for their weapons. Plus all the time involved with meeting someone. It is so much better being able to place a dozen bids and then have the three or four you won show up at your doorstep. Ah the good old days
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Old 11-23-2022, 9:05 AM
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The term "actual possession" means the ability to control the movement of an object. It is not limited by your physical touch, nor does it imply exclusive possession. If you give direction to others to move an object, and it moves according to your direction, then you have legally satisfied the criteria for actual possesion.
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Old 11-23-2022, 9:10 AM
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I too missed those days. I picked up this BRNO ZKM458, a 1952 model BNIB for $169 from Wideners when I first got my FFL03 in 2014, shipped right to my door. Yes, it's really sad that we live in a Commie State that punishes us for wanting to be collectors.

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Old 11-23-2022, 6:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronsightsRifleman View Post
The term "actual possession" means the ability to control the movement of an object. It is not limited by your physical touch, nor does it imply exclusive possession. If you give direction to others to move an object, and it moves according to your direction, then you have legally satisfied the criteria for actual possesion.
Even if that would hold up legally, I doubt I will find many of these auction houses willing to jump through those kind of hoops.

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Originally Posted by Capybara View Post
I too missed those days. I picked up this BRNO ZKM458, a 1952 model BNIB for $169 from Wideners when I first got my FFL03 in 2014, shipped right to my door. Yes, it's really sad that we live in a Commie State that punishes us for wanting to be collectors.

That is exactly the kind of deal that I used to snag. I just found an auction that has about a dozen falling block 22s such as the Stevens Favorite with a price ranging from $15 to $60 right now. Back in the day I would have been on all of them and probably won three or four.
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Old 11-23-2022, 10:51 PM
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That fine and dandy but i would call having a gun shipped into California as "importing" and 27565 (4) makes it pretty clear you would have to bring it across the border your self.

27565.
(a) This section applies in the following circumstances:
(1) A person is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(2) The licensed premises of that person are within this state.
(3) The licensed collector acquires, outside of this state, a handgun, and commencing January 1, 2014, any firearm.
(4) The licensed collector takes actual possession of that firearm outside of this state pursuant to the provisions of subsection (j) of Section 923 of Title 18 of the United States Code, as amended by Public Law 104-208, and transports the firearm into this state.
(5) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(b) Within five days of transporting a firearm into this state under the circumstances described in subdivision (a), the licensed collector shall report the acquisition of that firearm to the department in a format prescribed by the department.

27585.
(a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state shall not import into this state, bring into this state, or transport into this state, any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to or affect any of the following:
(1) A licensed collector who is subject to and complies with Section 27565.

[...]
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronsightsRifleman View Post
The term "actual possession" means the ability to control the movement of an object. It is not limited by your physical touch, nor does it imply exclusive possession. If you give direction to others to move an object, and it moves according to your direction, then you have legally satisfied the criteria for actual possesion.
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Old 11-23-2022, 11:14 PM
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CMP had an exemption, and I got 3 M1 Garands direct-shipped until the azzhats changed the law.

Funny - they haven’t jumped out of the safe and shot anyone yet…
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Old 11-24-2022, 6:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_tunaman View Post
CMP had an exemption, and I got 3 M1 Garands direct-shipped until the azzhats changed the law.

Funny - they haven稚 jumped out of the safe and shot anyone yet
CMP never had an exemption. They just did it.
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  #10  
Old 11-24-2022, 7:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-forceJunkie View Post
That fine and dandy but i would call having a gun shipped into California as "importing" and 27565 (4) makes it pretty clear you would have to bring it across the border your self.

27565.
(a) This section applies in the following circumstances:
(1) A person is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(2) The licensed premises of that person are within this state.
(3) The licensed collector acquires, outside of this state, a handgun, and commencing January 1, 2014, any firearm.
(4) The licensed collector takes actual possession of that firearm outside of this state pursuant to the provisions of subsection (j) of Section 923 of Title 18 of the United States Code, as amended by Public Law 104-208, and transports the firearm into this state.
(5) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(b) Within five days of transporting a firearm into this state under the circumstances described in subdivision (a), the licensed collector shall report the acquisition of that firearm to the department in a format prescribed by the department.

27585.
(a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state shall not import into this state, bring into this state, or transport into this state, any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to or affect any of the following:
(1) A licensed collector who is subject to and complies with Section 27565.

[...]
Yes, it is definitely importing, which is allowed for C&R+FFL03 under 27585 (b1) using the exception granted under 27565. Nowhere does '565 say or imply that you have to bring it across the border yourself. It says very clearly that you take "actual possession", and the law defines that term just as I have described.
The reason '565 requires taking actual possesion out of state is simple: if you take actual possesion in state then the transaction is not an import.

Last edited by IronsightsRifleman; 11-24-2022 at 7:32 AM..
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Old 11-24-2022, 7:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19K View Post
CMP never had an exemption. They just did it.
The didn't just do it, they read "actual possession" in 27565 exactly as I explained.
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Old 11-24-2022, 9:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronsightsRifleman View Post
The didn't just do it, they read "actual possession" in 27565 exactly as I explained.
Yes. They just do it. They do not have an exemption in the law. There is nothing in the law that says 鍍he CMP is XYZ

笛ust doing it means they do it.
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Old 11-24-2022, 7:57 PM
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So your contention is that:

1) buying a firearm outside California over the phone or internet is "taking actual possesion."

2)... and transports the firearm into this state." Is satisfied by shipping it via UPS/Fedx/USPSA, etc.

BOF Form 4100A states :

State law requires all California Federal Firearms Licensees (FFL) holding a type "03" license (collectors of curio or relic
firearms) who obtain curio or relic firearms while out of state
, to report such purchases or acquisitions to the California
Department of Justice within five days of transporting the firearm(s) into California.

You say that "while out of state" refers to the gun, not the person?

I think you may be confusing Actual Possession, ie Possession in Fact with Constructive Possession ie Possession in law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronsightsRifleman View Post
Yes, it is definitely importing, which is allowed for C&R+FFL03 under 27585 (b1) using the exception granted under 27565. Nowhere does '565 say or imply that you have to bring it across the border yourself. It says very clearly that you take "actual possession", and the law defines that term just as I have described.
The reason '565 requires taking actual possesion out of state is simple: if you take actual possesion in state then the transaction is not an import.

Last edited by G-forceJunkie; 11-24-2022 at 8:03 PM..
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Old 11-24-2022, 9:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-forceJunkie View Post
So your contention is that:

1) buying a firearm outside California over the phone or internet is "taking actual possesion."

2)... and transports the firearm into this state." Is satisfied by shipping it via UPS/Fedx/USPSA, etc.

BOF Form 4100A states :

State law requires all California Federal Firearms Licensees (FFL) holding a type "03" license (collectors of curio or relic
firearms) who obtain curio or relic firearms while out of state
, to report such purchases or acquisitions to the California
Department of Justice within five days of transporting the firearm(s) into California.

You say that "while out of state" refers to the gun, not the person?

I think you may be confusing Actual Possession, ie Possession in Fact with Constructive Possession ie Possession in law.
Well, you are poking at exactly the right points.

For (1), no, I am not saying that buying an item over the phone or internet necessarily constitutes actual possesion. It is certainly possible to buy something over the phone or internet without taking actual possesion. The acid test for actual possession is in three steps: 1) you will an object to move, 2) you take action to cause the object to move, and 3) the object does in fact move according to your will and action. Physical contact is frequently the method used, but it is not strickly required.

(2) Yes, transportation into the state can be performed by a shipping company.

The CA BOF form is not law. But for the purpose of that form, yes, the transaction occurred out of state prior to the import.

Actual vs constructive possession is absolutely a key point in question. Unfortunately, so much case law involves illicit narcotics where defendents are trying to prove they did not have possession of contraband, that the terms have become a bit muddled. Constructive possession, as I understand it, is the perceived ability to control an object. An object that exists within your home might be percieved to belong to you because you control access to the vacinity where the object resides. Or you might have constructive possession of a vehicle because your name is on the pink slip. In such a case, you may or may not be able to exert actual possession. But once you satisfy the acid test above, you have demonstrated actual possesion without a doubt.
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Old 11-28-2022, 9:43 AM
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Thats an interesting application of constructive possession. I could see how a DA would apply that in narcotics cases yet be livid if it were applied as a defense here. I would love to see someone argue that those are in fact distinguishable. this makes me want to dig out my gilberts on property. .. granted this is far to nuanced to be handled there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronsightsRifleman View Post
Well, you are poking at exactly the right points.

For (1), no, I am not saying that buying an item over the phone or internet necessarily constitutes actual possesion. It is certainly possible to buy something over the phone or internet without taking actual possesion. The acid test for actual possession is in three steps: 1) you will an object to move, 2) you take action to cause the object to move, and 3) the object does in fact move according to your will and action. Physical contact is frequently the method used, but it is not strickly required.

(2) Yes, transportation into the state can be performed by a shipping company.

The CA BOF form is not law. But for the purpose of that form, yes, the transaction occurred out of state prior to the import.

Actual vs constructive possession is absolutely a key point in question. Unfortunately, so much case law involves illicit narcotics where defendents are trying to prove they did not have possession of contraband, that the terms have become a bit muddled. Constructive possession, as I understand it, is the perceived ability to control an object. An object that exists within your home might be percieved to belong to you because you control access to the vacinity where the object resides. Or you might have constructive possession of a vehicle because your name is on the pink slip. In such a case, you may or may not be able to exert actual possession. But once you satisfy the acid test above, you have demonstrated actual possesion without a doubt.
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Old 11-29-2022, 11:51 AM
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I started collecting milsurps 2005 - 2010, bought a bunch and sold a bunch. Even went shooting regularly. Then, my eyes wandered to motorcycles, and I spent my money and time elsewhere. Years and an accident later, I sold my bikes and decided to get back into C&R again and discovered everything had changed.

The shipping direct to you was the best part of my C&R license. I didn't bother with COE since prices in CA are always $200 higher than elsewhere. If there is something I really want, I just go through my FFL. Less legal hassle for me. The only gripe I have is many uneducated or biased don't want to sell to CA.
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Old 11-29-2022, 6:45 PM
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The constructive possession idea is interesting and may even hold up in court. I would love to see that fight. The practical problem with it potential legal battle aside is finding people out of state willing to play the game.

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I started collecting milsurps 2005 - 2010, bought a bunch and sold a bunch. Even went shooting regularly. Then, my eyes wandered to motorcycles, and I spent my money and time elsewhere. Years and an accident later, I sold my bikes and decided to get back into C&R again and discovered everything had changed.

The shipping direct to you was the best part of my C&R license. I didn't bother with COE since prices in CA are always $200 higher than elsewhere. If there is something I really want, I just go through my FFL. Less legal hassle for me. The only gripe I have is many uneducated or biased don't want to sell to CA.
The problem with going through an FFL is the extra fee. You have DROS which is I believe $37??? now and the cheapest FFL fee I can find locally is $40. All told it is about $80 per weapon. If you are buying cheap .22 C&R guns it is cost prohibitive. If you are buying higher end items it makes more sense but I am not where I can throw that much at it yet. Too many projects on my property need doing before I start spending big bucks on guns again.

Funny you mention motorcycles. I bought my first early 2020 and now my boys want dirt bikes. They are elementary school so I bought them small electric dirt bikes for Christmas that they can ride in one of our pastures that we can't run cattle in until I finish the fencing (one of the projects mentioned above). I am glad you survived your crash. As a reserve firefighter I have seen a lot that did not survive. I have responded to five motorcycle and one UTV fatalities in the last year and a half or so.
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Old 11-30-2022, 7:15 PM
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I burned my license and bound book when they screwed us on shipping and registration. Kalifornia politicians can FOAD

Really miss a case of SKS being sent to house..picking the best and selling the rest to recover costs. Adding cases of ammo to same pallet was nice.

Ranger...have any gallery .22's to sell?
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Old 12-01-2022, 4:08 PM
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These C&R/COE laws in CA became so confusing I had to move out of CA.
OK, that was only part of the reason for moving out of CA.
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Old 12-01-2022, 7:16 PM
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Buying on line or in state is fine. I prefer buying "face to face" out of state. Especially where there's no transfer fee or sales tax. I picked up this 1926 made Colt target model -

IMG_0597.jpg

It unfortunately came with the wrong set of grips.

IMG_0598.jpg

At least they're factory.
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Old 12-01-2022, 8:41 PM
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Quote:
and transports the firearm into this state.
UPS can't do the transporting for you. The C&R license holder must do so.
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Old 12-02-2022, 8:14 AM
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There is another issue facing C&R holders doing what has been described in this topic. DOJ limits sales to 5 transactions per year. You can sell more than one gun per transaction, but it has to be to the same buyer at the same time to count as a single transaction.

To the best of my knowledge this limit applies to C&R holders as well. I understand it was implemented by DOJ to keep people from using their C&R license from acting as C&R "dealers". Not saying that is what you are talking about here, but I think DOJ might view it that way. Perhaps this would be better as its own topic, but I'm interested in what others think about the five transaction limitation and its applicability to C&R holders.

It may be largely a moot point considering the economics of going through a dealer for out of state C&R acquisitions, but it does have me wondering what a C&R holder would do should they decide to substantially "thin the herd".
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