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This is such a cluster$&$# and so many possibilities of breaking the law. |
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Just a scenario. |
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Please cite the actual text of the law that exempts reloads you personally made in CA from having to go through a LAV when re importing them into CA. I'll save you some time, THERE ISN'T ONE! So, unless you can prove that you PURCHASED them in CA, you're SOL on bringing them back to CA. Hahahahahaha!
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NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller Ventura County approved CCW Instructor Utah CCW Instructor Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners. CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE KM6WLV |
#44
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(a) Commencing January 1, 2018, a resident of this state shall not bring or transport into this state any ammunition that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained from outside of this state unless he or she first has that ammunition delivered to a licensed ammunition vendor for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 30312. Right there in bold.
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#45
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IANAL, but I believe that laws are written to prohibit actions or proscribe how things will be done. If no law is written about an action then that action is presumed to be legal. So in this case, the state would have to prove that the ammo was obtained from out of state and is being brought into the state in violation of the law. I would further argue that had the ammo been purchased out of state and delivered to a LAV then properly delivered to the CA resident and later the resident went out of state with the ammo and returned with some of the ammo, he still would not be in violation. The ammo was first delivered to a LAV so it was ultimately legally obtained in CA. It now belongs to the CA resident in CA. It is no different than ammo that a resident would buy from a local gun store. If you legally possessed in when you left, you should be able to legally posses it when you return. I doubt that even the most liberal minded judge would disagree. Otherwise, the state could make all of us re-DROS our guns if we left the state with them upon our return. This is one concept that just might destroy this stupid law.
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Anyone can look around and see the damage to the state and country inflicted by bad politicians. A vote is clearly much more dangerous than a gun. Why advocate restrictions on one right (voting) without comparable restrictions on another (self defense) (or, why not say 'Be a U.S. citizen' as the requirement for CCW)? --Librarian |
#46
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That is what I have been thinking. If you own it legally then you can come and go with it as you please. Some have argued that ammo bought before the law went into effect can not be taken out of the sate and brought back in. That makes no sense at all. If it is legally owned it does not matter when you bought it.
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#47
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So, I buy ammo in Reno on 12/30/17 and bring it back to CA on the same day. Then on 2/19/18 I decide to go to Reno with some friends to do some shooting. I take the ammo I purchased in Reno with me. I do not use it up so I return with a box of ammo. A mile over the state line I get pulled over for speeding and the officer sees the box of ammo on my front seat so he cites me for importing ammo from out of state and confiscates it. I show up to court with the receipt that shows I purchased 5 boxes of WWB 115 grain 9mm ammo from Cabbalas on 12/30/17. The confiscated box has a Cabbalas tag on it with the same price as my receipt shows and the judge accepts it is the same ammo I bought before the law went into affect. He still rules against and fines me. Why? I originally obtained the ammo out of state. Yes, I obtained it before the new laws went into affect but that does not change the fact I am a CA resident who first obtained this ammo from out of state. Reread the first part of the PC again: Quote:
This is being nit-picky, but does the phrase, "Commencing January 1, 2018 only refer to a resident of this state transporting into the state or does it apply to transporting into the state and ammo obtained after the date? As a high school teacher now, I work with several English teachers. The one thing I have learned from them is, if a phrase is supposed to refer to more than one part of a sentence, make that extremely clear. Do not be lazy, you might have to write the phrase twice or break one sentence into two sentences. Whatever you do, do not leave room for confusion. BTW, this was also true for technical and scientific writing. Based on the sentence structure and the simplest plain meaning of the text, the date only refers to the act of importing into this state. That is a "safe" interpretation. Adding a clarifying phrase so the part about ammo read: any ammunition that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained from outside of this state on or after 1/1/18 would had simply clarified things if this is what the people writing the proposition really intended. It may not make logical sense, but it is not an undue burden to deliver the ammo to a LAV before bringing back to CA so that is how i rule. Pay the clerk $250. I would then argue once the ammo was delivered to a LAV, the requirements of the law were fulfilled and the ammo could then be taken out and brought back as many times as you wanted. Personally, this whole issue is absurd. Enforcement is nearly impossible. Enforcement efforts will require labor and cost intensive activities all for something that results in an infraction for first time offenders. CA is decriminalizing marijuana and criminalizing ammunition. If the first offense was a felony, I believe the courts would look at it more closely and there would be a better chance to get a ruling that the ambiguity is too much to risk a severe consequence over a relatively minor offense. We want to believe judges rule based strictly on the Constitution but I have read too many opinions and been in too many courtrooms and listened to rulings by too many judges to know what reality is is. I learned from my mother to assess risk from a phrase she used often; is this hill worth dying for? Just because a cause is right does not mean it is worth all of your effort to fight for it. Pick your battles carefully. I would not take ammo out of state that I had purchased out of state prior to 1/1/18. I would just buy the ammo out of state and use it out of state. Problem solved. If you have extra, send it to a close relative in CA, a parent, child, grandparent. That is legal. If you want to avoid all problems, get a FFL03 and COE. Carry it at all times and you are exempt from all the BS ammo laws. I have mine and that is my plan. Then the money I save from not having to fight any potential legal issues I can donate to the NRA to help fund the legal fight to challenge this law and invest in the Dillon 650 reloader I plan to purchase this summer.
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Anyone can look around and see the damage to the state and country inflicted by bad politicians. A vote is clearly much more dangerous than a gun. Why advocate restrictions on one right (voting) without comparable restrictions on another (self defense) (or, why not say 'Be a U.S. citizen' as the requirement for CCW)? --Librarian |
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NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller Ventura County approved CCW Instructor Utah CCW Instructor Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners. CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE KM6WLV |
#49
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The extra step is you have to purchase from a shop that is a LAV and can't just buy it anywhere.
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NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller Ventura County approved CCW Instructor Utah CCW Instructor Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners. CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE KM6WLV |
#50
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Yes, it is 2018!
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#51
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Not for an infraction.
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#53
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LEO who carry a firearm in the performance of their duties. This means that some, like correctional officers who don’t carry, are not exempt. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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Are FFL-03+COE exempt from the transportation Law? 30314(5)?
Can I continue to make my OOS purchases and bring them back in 2018? I've been sniffing out all these threads, and see the "proposed" law, but can't find a specific answer, or find the "actual" law. Thanks
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It's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the bottom. Last edited by PatC415; 01-07-2018 at 10:35 AM.. |
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It's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the bottom. |
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As used in this part, “consultant-evaluator” means a consultant or evaluator who, in the course of that person’s profession is loaned firearms from a person licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto, for research or evaluation, and has a current certificate of eligibility issued pursuant to Section 26710. |
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Section 30314 that deals with bringing ammo into the state started last week and does not have anything to do with sales or transfers in the state or the background checks or record keeping that comences in 2019.
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Does a CA CCW exempt you from an ammo purchase background check?
I have heard a rumor of sorts that those with CA ccw would be exempt from the background check that is required when purchasing ammo. I have done some digging but can not seem to find anything that supports this notion, or discredits it completely.
Any input? |
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I haven’t heard that, but at the same time it’s a year too early to be asking any questions about ammo background checks, associated fees, ammo cards, or anything else associated with that. I know a lot of the details are still being finalized, and for now except for the loss of ammo by mail, nothing has changed in the retail market. I would wait 9 or 10 months and ask again. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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"Civil Defense Thru Civil Disobedience; Never Disarm!" NRA Benefactor Life Member NRA Certified Instructor CA DOJ FSC Certified Instructor CRPA Life Member |
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The real question is whether a CCW equals a COE. It should but it does not. It would be nice if it were so.
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Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. Mark Twain "One argues to a judge, one does not argue with a judge." Me "Never argue unless you are getting paid." CDAA "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." George Bernard Shaw |
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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I was curious about what will happen starting 7/1/19 so I did a bit of searching and found this: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ctionNum=30370.
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To be approved you first have to be not a prohibited person, then you have to have a gun registered with the state, or have a COE, or go through the process to have a single ammo transaction approved. The DOJ has to develop a procedure for that. Note though that the single transaction fee can legally be no more than the DROS fee. The DOJ would never be tempted to charge that much to do a background check so the excess could be used for enforcement activities as written into the law. :roll eyes: It looks like the FFL03 and COE is looking even better after 6/30/19. Buy online or out of state and for emergency needs use the COE to not pay the background check fee. Of course you still have to pay the $1 ammo transfer fee mentioned further on.
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Anyone can look around and see the damage to the state and country inflicted by bad politicians. A vote is clearly much more dangerous than a gun. Why advocate restrictions on one right (voting) without comparable restrictions on another (self defense) (or, why not say 'Be a U.S. citizen' as the requirement for CCW)? --Librarian |
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Will they confiscate your car for the speeding ticket? And how did the cop in your story know anything about the ammo?? Unless you tell him and he can prove it was purchased out of state (and after 12/31/17) there is no reason he would even know its origin. |
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Remember, when you sign a speeding ticket, you are promising to appear in court. When you get the fine in the mail, that is the bail. You have a choice, send in the bail amount and elect to forfeit it because you agree to not contest the ticket, in essence you are pleading guilty, or show up in traffic court and contest the ticket. In traffic court, the officer that issued the ticket will be present to present testimony. For ammo, if the officer did not confiscate the ammo, the main evidence would not be available to the court. Also, you would not be able to use it as evidence for your defense because the legal chain of custody would have been broken if you kept it and then brought it in. The court would want to see any price tag on it and if you did in fact buy it in CA and had a receipt, you would want to be able to present the receipt and have the court credibly believe that the price tag on the box and the box itself is the same one that was confiscated. No person would attempt to substitute a CA purchased box of ammo when they went to court. Yes, this is from an attorney. My aunt is a retired attorney so I do ask her general legal questions from time to time. A long time friend of the family is married to an attorney who works for our DAs office, so when we get together, I can ask her some general questions from time to time. As for getting the ammo returned, that would be up to the court and I have no idea how that would go. If the court determined you imported it illegally, or you just paid the fine and did not contest it, you may not get it back because you committed an illegal act. Then again, for an infraction, you might be able to get it back, that only an attorney could shed light on, and I have not asked because it does not personally effect me. I have a FFL03 and COE so why worry. I can take care of myself and my family with the ammo while I do what I can to help the effort to fight this BS law.
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Anyone can look around and see the damage to the state and country inflicted by bad politicians. A vote is clearly much more dangerous than a gun. Why advocate restrictions on one right (voting) without comparable restrictions on another (self defense) (or, why not say 'Be a U.S. citizen' as the requirement for CCW)? --Librarian |
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Apologies, but can I ask for a confirmation on face to face sale of ammo between two 03FFL+COE holders?
Is it legal to sell less than 500 rounds in 30 days in this case? Any difference if the seller is the only one with 03FFL+COE? Thanks in advance. |
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What i can not understand is how they are going to prove you bought ammo out of state unless they see you cross the border and stop you later near the border.
If you are not near the border and claim you have not been out of state and have a ammo box full of 30-06 m2 ball. how are they going to prove you got it out of state unless you admit it. I know a lot of back roads across the calif border. |
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#74
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How fat is your wallet?
That's it for licensed vendors selling ammo.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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"Hey Pal, you haven't bought enough guns, you are in big trouble now". Say's no one. LOL I contacted Freedom Munitions and asked how I would use my 03FFL and COE. They said not at this time. Here is their response. Jan 10, 07:02 PST Dear John, We have a program to ship your orders to a licensed reseller of ammunition, so that you can continue to order your favorite ammo from FreedomMunitions.com. Please forward the link below to your local store so they can contact us to get signed up and registered as a shipping location for Freedom Munitions. During the checkout process, you will be required to select a FFL Shipping destination from our current list of participating FFL partners. http://dealers.howellmunitionsandtec...erProgram.html While the law does allow for certain exemptions, our system does not - yet. We are working on new functionality that will allow us to ship directly in certain situations, but we do not have an expected date for that to be available. We are working on it, but we can't do it just yet. As always, thank you for shopping with us!
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I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Last edited by johnthomas; 01-11-2018 at 10:42 PM.. |
#79
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No "purchase permit" will be required in 2019. Your CA DL or ID will do.
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NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller Ventura County approved CCW Instructor Utah CCW Instructor Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners. CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE KM6WLV |
#80
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Here is the law regarding post 7/1/19 ammunition purchases:
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...r=1.&article=4. |
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