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  #1  
Old 12-04-2018, 10:57 AM
Dlbasinger Dlbasinger is offline
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Default Low Recoil Slugs

Is there really a noticeable difference between Federal low recoil and regular slugs. I will only be shooting about 30 per day.
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  #2  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:18 AM
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Yes, low recoil slugs do make a difference in felt recoil 1200 to 1800 fps.
I shot a lot of different brand slugs before I started casting my own, I wanted to find a balance of moderate recoil and good accuracy.
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  #3  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:25 AM
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yes, there is a significant recoil difference between the two..

Fed low recoil muzzle energy is about 1400 ft/lbs of energy. Basically similar to a one ounce target load at 1200 fps.

Regular recoil slugs have a muzzle energy of about 2487 ft/lbs. 1 oz slug at 1600 fps.. If my gun runs the low recoil stuff, I'd use that.. 30 rounds of full power slugs is on the abusive side for most people.. In a semi-auto you won't notice as much as if you were running a pump gun.. but it's still significant.
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Old 12-04-2018, 11:36 AM
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Softest shooting slugs I chronoed have been the Winchester Ranger 1oz slugs, coming out of my rifled barrel at 1190 FPS.
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  #5  
Old 12-04-2018, 1:51 PM
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Get yourself a box of shells loaded with 1 1/8 oz of shot going 1200 @ your local store....about 6 bucks for 25

They will be very close or exactly the same recoil as low recoil Slug or Buck

Shoot off that box for a good estimate of what it would be like to shoot that many of the Slug without the expense of buying Slug loads

Last edited by Thefeeder; 12-04-2018 at 1:58 PM..
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  #6  
Old 12-04-2018, 9:28 PM
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YES.
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  #7  
Old 12-05-2018, 9:51 AM
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Ditto on Yes!

Randy
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Old 12-05-2018, 10:29 PM
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Thanks,Thefeeder, this is now my saturday morning plan.
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  #9  
Old 12-06-2018, 9:44 AM
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I run the Fiocchi low recoil slugs (1150 fps) through my Mossberg 590 for range days...and I can literally shoot for hours with no discomfort.

I found that anything in the 1500 fps range is painful after a while...
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  #10  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:34 AM
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Here's the deal guys, you don't need to shoot hi-velocity slugs for anything but big animals or stopping cars and such.

A Low Recoil Slug < 1300 fps will knock down anything in N/A and most of the world. That includes men with body armor. The impact is serious!

There is a measure of relative knock down power Called the "Taylor Knockout Factor." It compares different cartridges and how fast they dump their energy.

The Formula is,,, Bullet weight in grains x velocity x diameter / 7000

For example a .45-70 with a 400 gr bullet at 1600 fps which is a pretty potent load has a TKO of 42. A .458 Win Mag with a 500 gr bullet at 2150 fps has a TKO of 70. Same diameter bullet, just longer and faster.

A 12 ga. Low Recoil 1oz. slug (437 gr) at 1300 fps has a TKO of 60 and a Fed Maximum Slug 1 1/8 oz. (490 gr.) at 1610 fps has a TKO of 83 !

A .458 Win Mag has twice the ftlb muzzle energy but due to it's diameter it doesn't transfer it's energy to a target as fast as the larger diameter slug, and the ability to "Knock down" a target is where it is at when it comes to stopping a threat.

You've got a large Bear charging you. Do you want the bullet to go clean thru him, dumping it's energy in the dirt behind, or do you want to stop the charge?
This is what TKO is all about and it has been around for over 100 years, and the guy who developed it shot everything in Africa with every gun known to man at the time. He was a professional Ivory Hunter in the early 1900's when it was still cool to shoot elephants and such.

If you really need to get serious, like if you have to shoot a pickup truck or a Dinosaur,,, a 3" Magnum Slug, 1 1/4 oz (550 gr) at 1800 fps has a TKO of 104! If you can hold onto it? Note: In "Jurassic Park" the pro hunter used a pump shotgun.

This is why unless you are shooting something that is big and can kill you, you don't need anything above a Low Recoil Slug or Buckshot, and even those will have an effect on you if you shoot enough of them.

Hope this helps understanding of this subject.

Randy
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  #11  
Old 12-06-2018, 4:45 PM
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Taylor KO facto, never heard of it so I looked it up and found an interesting read, especially the Criticism section.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_KO_Factor
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  #12  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:33 PM
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Thanks, Randy. Good read!
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  #13  
Old 12-07-2018, 11:07 AM
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The difference between a smaller rifle round and a larger rifle round is "Frontal Area"

Here' a pic of a Lyman Sabot Slug weighing 490 gr. and a 450 gr Bullet for my .45-70.

Pretty easy to see which one is going to dump it's energy faster.

The TKO formula does in fact favor large calibers over small calibers. And smaller bullets do expand better now than they did over 100 years ago. But it all comes down to Frontal Area when looking at the ability to "knock down" a target.

Most people can't shoot a large caliber rifle very well due to the heavy recoil of the gun. However most people can shoot a 12 ga shotgun even if they have to suffer thru a couple of Hi-Base slugs which will knock down anything on this continent.

The .45-70 slug shown has a TKO of 47 when loaded to 1600 fps and it will go clean thru any animal in N/A Bison included. It has exceptional penetration. That means it is NOT dumping all it's energy on the target. However it will leave a big hole and if vital organs are punctured death by hemorrhaging (bleed out) will occur shortly.

The Shotgun Slug at 1500 fps TKO of 77 on the other hand will dump all it's energy within about 12-18" of travel into the animal. Or if the animal is lighter, like a 150 lb deer it will dump while moving the animal backwards. It probably won't penetrate completely. Still I probably won't shoot a Buffalo with a shotgun just because the rifle is a better choice. A Black Bear is another story and I wouldn't hesitate if confronted.

If the target is a Man with body armor the slug will not penetrate at all which is kind of the reason for the body armor in the first place. However it will still dump all it energy instantaneously and not many people can take a 2500 ftlb hit to the chest and survive.

Even with a Low Recoil Slug with an impact velocity of around 1200 fps at conversational distances hitting the body armor, the impact will still be above 1500 ft lbs and even with body armor nobody can live thru that.

Without body armor they are done.

These are the reasons why shotguns are such effective weapons. Granted you are limited in range to below, say 125 yards, but the power that you are wielding is enormous.

Nobody lives thru a COM hit with a slug! And TKO is a large factor in why this is true. Once again a 124 gr 9mm bullet at 1100 fps has a TKO of 7.5!

That's why those guns have such large magazines.

What's in your magazine?

Randy
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  #14  
Old 12-07-2018, 11:18 AM
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According to Taylor, his approach is only for large thick-skinned animals shot at close ranges, like elephants, and that more scientific approaches are better for everything else.

So, if we're talking about elephants, fine, otherwise ... no.
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  #15  
Old 12-10-2018, 12:54 AM
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NO? We are actually talking about people here and the correct answer is yes.
Every single one falls.

Randy
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Old 12-10-2018, 2:25 AM
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https://www.chuckhawks.com/taylor_KO_factor.htm

Chuck thinks the formula isn’t the best measure.
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  #17  
Old 12-10-2018, 9:52 AM
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It is simply a measure of how fast a projectile dumps it's energy.

Bigger frontal area dumps faster than aerodynamic. This is common sense.

Nobody said it was the end all.

Muzzle energy doesn't translate to knock down power. If so a .243 would have the same power as a Low Recoil 12 ga Slug.

When you are talking about the ability of a projectile to knockdown a target this is the formula that is the best comparison

Randy.
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Old 12-10-2018, 10:14 AM
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His formula was designed for punching elephants in the head and literally knocking them out. ( If I read it correctly.) His variables where picked for that function alone.

Btw, I don’t think you need any formula to know what a 12 ga slug will do to a person at any reasonable range.

To the op, I agree with all the others that yes, there is a noticeable difference shooting low recoil.
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  #19  
Old 12-11-2018, 9:32 AM
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John Taylor was a professional hunter and he shot alot more than just Elephants.

He shot everything that was available, with every caliber in existence at the time. He even shot elephants with a 7x57 Mauser.

The formula was simply a means of comparing different cartridges, no other method existed at the time.

FT/LBS doesn't tell the whole story, and TKO doesn't either.

But TKO does show the power that virtually anyone who owns a shotgun has in their hands.

Plus that try doing Velocity Squared on your calculator and see if it has enough digits. None of mine do so calculating FTlb is not happening for average Joe. (not Morning Joe!).

Randy
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Old 12-11-2018, 9:48 AM
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I'm going to go ahead and say yes and no. Yes, "low recoil" technically has less recoil. HOWEVER, NO, it doesnt really make a difference. They still kick pretty good if you dont know how to hold a shotgun properly. I got a bunch of these slugs and I love shooting them even though they are not "low recoil".

Remington Slugger Rifled Slug 12 Gauge Ammo 2-3/4" 1oz. Lead Slug
https://www.targetsportsusa.com/remi...s-p-58615.aspx

Get yourself a limbsaver pad and practice holding the gun lightly but firmly against your upper pectoral/collarbone area. The trick is to find the sweet spot. Also DO NOT push your cheek up against the stock. Just lightly touch your cheek to the stock just enough to get a good "sight picture". You dont want to transfer any of that recoil to your face. I personally have great results using my arms to absorb the recoil. I hold the gun very firmly with my hands and arms so they act as built in shock absorbers. It takes some practice to get down. Of course YMMV.
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Last edited by lightcav; 12-11-2018 at 9:56 AM..
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Old 12-11-2018, 9:57 PM
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Just a little bit of humor here.....Lets say your shooting at an intruder with a Shotgun full of Slugs. In theory would the slug not pretty much blow a hole right on through the intruder, leaving a nasty mess on anything behind. Certainly its doubtful, it would be survivable getting hit with body armor on. I have seen first hand the damage from Handgun Rounds on a vest....its not pretty and not TV. Good Read.
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Old 12-12-2018, 10:46 AM
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Shooting at <7 yards I would expect full penetration, and would only shoot the guy if he was standing in my Front Doorway so the mess could be hosed down outside the house !

I was talking to a Cal Game Warden yesterday who had an AR10 and a Rem 870 in his truck. He confirmed that nobody lives thru a slug hit even with body armor. The only thing the armor does is stop penetration.

You still eat the 2000+ftlb hit.

He wasn't messing with any puny .223 cal rifle either. He said his engagement distances are more likely to be longer range in the hills so he opted for a .308.

Guys here's some pics of slugs I am loading.

1. Pumpkin Ball 420 gr. 1200 fps
2. Lyman Sabot Slug 490 gr 1200-1600 fps.
3. Foster Slug 490 gr. 1200-1600 fps
4. Sabot Technologies Hammer Head 490 gr. 1200-1600 fps

The Pumpkin ball is my standard 3 gun load and is very light recoil. All the rest can be loaded up or down depending on what I want to shoot with them.

All the slugs are cast at home and cost @ nothing.The Lyman and Foster and STI slugs can be ran thru my rifled barrel and the STI slugs are shooting inside 4" at 100 yards.

I can also use turned Brass Slugs in the STI sabots for hunting in CA. All of these slugs are devastating.

Randy





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Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 12-12-2018 at 10:49 AM..
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Old 12-12-2018, 12:06 PM
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W.R., your photos aren't loading for me. They're little red X's, but a different color. Can't say it anymore cuz that would be racist. Oh, wait...

Meanwhile, you're loading some serious slugs. As slugs should be. Not those soft thimbles most folks *think* are slugs...

You've arrived at a specific fl/lb number... would you please do the math on a 300 grain hardcast .431" WFN bo0lit travelling 1700 fps? That's a certain .44 Mag load from a 16" carbine barrel...

And please forgive the threadjack!
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Old 12-12-2018, 12:14 PM
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who0ps. Helps to read the thread...

Quote:
W.R.B.

The Formula is,,, Bullet weight in grains x velocity x diameter / 7000

For example a .45-70 with a 400 gr bullet at 1600 fps which is a pretty potent load has a TKO of 42. A .458 Win Mag with a 500 gr bullet at 2150 fps has a TKO of 70. Same diameter bullet, just longer and faster.

A 12 ga. Low Recoil 1oz. slug (437 gr) at 1300 fps has a TKO of 60 and a Fed Maximum Slug 1 1/8 oz. (490 gr.) at 1610 fps has a TKO of 83 !

By that formula, the load I refer to (300 grain hardcast .431" @ 1700 fps) has a Taylor Knockout Factor of... engh... 31. And yet somehow I wouldn't feel undergunned...

BUT I DIGRESS. This is a shotgun thread. Forgive me. Carry on!

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Old 12-12-2018, 2:17 PM
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Apples: you are not under gunned ! I am a .44 Magnum enthusiast as well and my handloads of a 260 gr boolit (429244) at 1200 fps from my SBH or 1600 fps from my 24" bbld Marlin 1894 CB are powerful enough to take down anything in N/A.

My light loads are a 429421, 250 gr boolit are running about 900 fps from the SBH and 1200 fps from the rifle.

A 250 gr .44 boolit will go clean thru an Elk in any direction at 900 fps. You just have to hit something meaningful in the process.

These Boolits kill by punching a hole thru the animal and having it bleed out.

TKO is not as much of a factor in this case.

The shotgun slugs are twice as big as the .44 slugs and are killing by shear impact transfer. TKO tends to favor larger frontal areas over smaller ones.

Ft lbs are calculated by using the Formula: Energy = Mass in Pounds x Velocity Squared. My calculator won't do 1700 x 1700. It doesn't have enough digits.

Nobody cares about Hijacking a thread. Happens all the time.

Randy
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Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 12-12-2018 at 2:22 PM..
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Old 12-12-2018, 3:36 PM
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Copy that, my good man. Thank you.


Quote:
A 250 gr .44 boolit will go clean thru an Elk in any direction at 900 fps. You just have to hit something meaningful in the process.

These Boolits kill by punching a hole thru the animal and having it bleed out.

TKO is not as much of a factor in this case.

The shotgun slugs are twice as big as the .44 slugs and are killing by shear impact transfer. TKO tends to favor larger frontal areas over smaller ones.

Thass wut ah figgrd, thar, pard.

My pet load is one that a certain Charles Alan Skelton preferred when all was said and done: a .44 Keith over 7.5 grains Unique in Special brass, from a Special-only chambered whirlenpopper for roughly 950 fps. Clean through! by golly.

I have just taken in a Marlin 1894 SBL blah blah blah...

And on the left side of the safe there is one of two vintage Wingmasters wearing a 24" rifled slug barrel, with a short stack of 300 grain FTX in two speeds next to it: 2000 fps and 1575 fps. You know, for raptors and ****. Then there are the Brenneke K.O. and Classic Magnum projectiles for my smo0thbores.

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Old 12-12-2018, 4:49 PM
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Yes the Big Magnum Brenneke's are pretty powerful stuff.

And not for casual use, the back side of them is nothing to sneeze at and few will be touching off more than a couple at any one time.

I keep saying, people really need to get a grip on how much power they have with a 12 ga shotgun. The versatility with the number of different loads you can launch with a regular shotgun sets it apart from any other weapon.

I showed only 4 slugs I can shoot, but I could show 25 more easily and that doesn't even count the number of Bird Shot, Buckshot, Less Lethal, Breaching Rounds and even some ones that will blow a 4' diameter hole in a 12" thick cement wall!

There is a reason for all of this and part of it is that the basic concept has been around for 400 years. So people have had time to concoct alot of different things that can be ejected from the business end.

We are not close to being done and guys come up with new stuff every day. The Russians and Italians are pretty good at it also, so we can look forward to many decades of dispensing this brand of mayhem.

With the much less dense atmosphere on Mars can you imagine how effective the shotguns would be against Martians. We win again!

Randy
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Old 12-12-2018, 4:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
Shooting at <7 yards I would expect full penetration, and would only shoot the guy if he was standing in my Front Doorway so the mess could be hosed down outside the house !
I like your thinking....And I have looked into buying a Lee Slug Mold thanks to your thinking......
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Old 12-13-2018, 10:46 AM
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The actual formula for energy (if anyone cares since there are plenty of online calculators available) is;

Bullet weight in grains x velocity squared divided by 450240.
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  #30  
Old 12-13-2018, 11:42 AM
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FeuerFrei FeuerFrei is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlbasinger View Post
Is there really a noticeable difference between Federal low recoil and regular slugs. I will only be shooting about 30 per day.
To answer your question. Yes. Lo recoil < full power. Very noticeable recoil difference.

Shoot 1/2 that full horse power stuff to start and palpate for shoulder soreness a day later.
No bruises and a little sore? Shoot the other half and check again.
*pull the stock in tight and adjust grip as needed.

You'll know how to direct others to answer this question when asked in future.

*then try some 3" magnums. Good times.
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  #31  
Old 12-14-2018, 11:12 AM
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langss langss is offline
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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
Shooting at <7 yards I would expect full penetration, and would only shoot the guy if he was standing in my Front Doorway so the mess could be hosed down outside the house !

I was talking to a Cal Game Warden yesterday who had an AR10 and a Rem 870 in his truck. He confirmed that nobody lives thru a slug hit even with body armor. The only thing the armor does is stop penetration.

You still eat the 2000+ftlb hit.

He wasn't messing with any puny .223 cal rifle either. He said his engagement distances are more likely to be longer range in the hills so he opted for a .308.

Guys here's some pics of slugs I am loading.

1. Pumpkin Ball 420 gr. 1200 fps
2. Lyman Sabot Slug 490 gr 1200-1600 fps.
3. Foster Slug 490 gr. 1200-1600 fps
4. Sabot Technologies Hammer Head 490 gr. 1200-1600 fps

The Pumpkin ball is my standard 3 gun load and is very light recoil. All the rest can be loaded up or down depending on what I want to shoot with them.

All the slugs are cast at home and cost @ nothing.The Lyman and Foster and STI slugs can be ran thru my rifled barrel and the STI slugs are shooting inside 4" at 100 yards.

I can also use turned Brass Slugs in the STI sabots for hunting in CA. All of these slugs are devastating.

Randy





Now that you got me started.....lol......I'm ordering molds and handles and looking into primed hulls. Thanks again for the ideas.
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