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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #1  
Old 12-06-2018, 4:53 PM
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Default 556-223

Not wanting to thread crap a existing post on this forum, I'll start a new one.
The existing thread asks about a rifle in .223 cal.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1494647
A couple of people quickly posted about the extreme danger of using 5.56 ammo in a .223 marked rifle.
Can anyone document a actual problem with someone doing this with standard commercial or surplus ammo?
I do realize that there are maximum pressure differences with these 2 cartridges.
I also realize that thousands of people have done this over the years with 0 problems.
So, problem wise, fact or myth?
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Old 12-06-2018, 5:06 PM
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Whether it's fact or myth might depend on how close to the edge you like to live. I've seen enough warnings and the reasoning behind them to prefer living further away from the edge in this case.

Not that you're obligated to share your thinking but I'm curious to know why you're asking? Is 5.56 ammunition cheaper and if so, is it cheaper enough to be worth the risk? Or is there some other reason?
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Old 12-06-2018, 5:30 PM
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Quote:
SAMMI makes it quite clear- you can shoot 223 Remington ammunition in a 5.56 chamber, but you shouldn’t shoot 5.56 ammunition in a 223 Remington chamber:
http://ultimatereloader.com/2018/08/...#acceptLicense
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Old 12-06-2018, 5:31 PM
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Just because a cartridge is more powerful, doesn't mean that most/all guns won't handle it.
The main reason I started this post is that I hate internet fud and parrots.
How many millions of rounds of 5.56 have been shot in .223 rifles?
Anyone document a problem?

Last edited by Pofoo; 12-06-2018 at 5:43 PM..
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Old 12-06-2018, 5:41 PM
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IIRC it's mostly about the chamber, and freebore specifically.
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Old 12-06-2018, 6:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pofoo View Post
The main reason I started this post is that I hate internet fud and parrots.

Fair enough. I'm the same way when it comes to claims that aren't necessarily backed up by facts. I'm interested in the answer to your question, but I also suspect SAAMI wouldn't recommend against using 5.56 ammo in a .223 without a good reason.

Just because people are using 5.56 in a .223 without accident doesn't mean it's a good idea. Like this clever lad who thought he was far enough away from the fridge he was trying to blow up:
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Old 12-06-2018, 6:39 PM
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I have a ruger American compact in 223. I had a few boxes of 55gr American eagle 556 I ran through it. Bolt closing was. A little sticky but wasn’t that hard. Shot fine but grouped horribly. No pressure signs or anything. Just awful groups. I figured it was the “AR” ammo or something. So I ran 55gr reloads and got better but still poor groups. Ran 62 and 68 grain reloads through it and it shot great.

Conclusion? 55gr 556 will shoot out of a 223 bolt, but not well. At least not one with a 1:8 twist. Of course, YMMV.

Would they feed and shoot out of say the ruger precision in 223? Dunno.


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Old 12-06-2018, 7:41 PM
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Some quick googling shows max overall length is the same for .223 and 5.56, so it's hard to see where there would be a problem. Maybe if you load 80 grainers extra long it would be bad, but if you're just shooting normal factory ammo or crimping in the crimping groove it should be no big deal.
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Old 12-06-2018, 8:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigstroker View Post
Some quick googling shows max overall length is the same for .223 and 5.56, so it's hard to see where there would be a problem. Maybe if you load 80 grainers extra long it would be bad, but if you're just shooting normal factory ammo or crimping in the crimping groove it should be no big deal.
It's because the leade of the 5.56 chamber is longer, (there is more taper cut in front of the lands.) This causes the 5.56 bullets to have more jump before they contact the lands where the maximum pressure is generated. The longer leade lets the bullet move forward with lower pressure. This creates a larger combustion area before the pressure peaks as the bullet contacts the lands which reduces the peak pressure. The 223 chamber with the short leade allows pressure to rise quicker and peak higher.
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Old 12-06-2018, 9:11 PM
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Old 12-06-2018, 10:14 PM
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Exactly.
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Old 12-06-2018, 11:32 PM
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Yes.....Before I knew better. I had to knock the bolt open on my XP100. Obvious Overpressure....Flat Primer.....Brass Wipe on the bolt face....Etc. I only shot three rounds and without knowing....figured it was the Ammunition....which it was, but operator error was the root cause.
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Old 12-07-2018, 1:07 AM
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You don't have an answer until you find out yourself. I have a Savage model 10 bolt action with heavy barrel in .223. I shot 5.56 Federal 55 gr with great results. It shoots the same 0.25" groups as .223 ammo. It's a very beefy gun, so it has no issue.
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Old 12-07-2018, 2:05 AM
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.223 in 5.56...
.308 in 7.62...


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Old 12-07-2018, 7:43 AM
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If you have ever been next to a rifle when it blows, as I have, it will make you take these warnings more serious.

I don't think anyone will tell you it can't be done, it is just flat dangerous.

And why take the chance on damaging your rifle or worse injuring someone or yourself.

I caught flying parts in my arm from the rifle the blew on the bench next to me. The shooter had major cuts in his forearm that was under the rifle.

Taught me not to take chances.

Regarding the 55 grain 5.56 load from a 8 twist barrel, it didn't shoot well because of it being fired in the 223 chamber, rarely will an 8 twist stabilize a 55 grain pill. JMHO
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Old 12-07-2018, 8:22 AM
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I have a Mossberg MVP in 5.56 and I don't worry about it

Also, a 60 rnd Magpul drum works just dandy in it.
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Old 12-07-2018, 9:27 AM
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I shot some 5.56 through my cousins Mini-14 which was chambered in 223 and about halfway through the mag the op rod went so far to the rear that it came out of the track and got hung up. I’m not sure if it was the ammo or not because I didn’t want to try it again.
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:12 AM
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They say you can't load a .308 cartridge in a 5.56. If someone hasn't tried it, why not? Get out the hammer, baby! Pffft!
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjold View Post
It's because the leade of the 5.56 chamber is longer, (there is more taper cut in front of the lands.) This causes the 5.56 bullets to have more jump before they contact the lands where the maximum pressure is generated. The longer leade lets the bullet move forward with lower pressure. This creates a larger combustion area before the pressure peaks as the bullet contacts the lands which reduces the peak pressure. The 223 chamber with the short leade allows pressure to rise quicker and peak higher.
^this^
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Old 12-07-2018, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by billped View Post
They say you can't load a .308 cartridge in a 5.56. If someone hasn't tried it, why not? Get out the hammer, baby! Pffft!
I saw a guy load 300BLK into a 5.56 once on the interwebz.
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Old 12-07-2018, 5:30 PM
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[QUOTE=Ramsh00ter;2241433
it is just flat dangerous. JMHO[/QUOTE]

Personally, I don't believe this, and NO ONE has posted anything to verify it.
You're focusing on cartridge pressure, not the rifle build specs. Do you believe that any 5.56/223 rifles aren't over built to handle the higher pressure?
Proof tested at xxxxpsi or whatever only tells us that it is safe at that pressure. Not that this is the max safe pressure or unsafe at a higher pressure.
Flat dangerous?
No. Terribly misleading to newbs.
Having someone next to you blow up a unknown rifle of unknown caliber with unknown ammo means nothing to this discussion.
Possibly dangerous in a very small percentage of rifles?
Maybe. Post some proof!
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Old 12-07-2018, 7:08 PM
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Quote:
You're focusing on cartridge pressure, not the rifle build specs. Do you believe that any 5.56/223 rifles aren't over built to handle the higher pressure?
I think you're wandering into an area that's best avoided. If manufacturers are being unduly conservative, it's because they've learned that there are folks who will push the edge of the envelope well past the breaking point without thinking about consequences. Maybe someone tries the experiment with a Brand A rifle and doesn't get hurt, but then someone else tries it with a Brand B rifle and ends up with a face full of shrapnel. Why take the risk?
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:48 PM
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Default 556-223

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackEllis View Post
Maybe someone tries the experiment with a Brand A rifle and doesn't get hurt, but then someone else tries it with a Brand B rifle and ends up with a face full of shrapnel. Why take the risk?
Agreed. And maybe 100 people are ok with brand A and 1 is not and suffers severe injury. Design margins exist for a very good reason... because manufacture processes and materials have variation; consuming margin unnecessarily is for the foolhardy and thrill seekers.




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  #24  
Old 12-08-2018, 5:20 AM
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https://saami.org/technical-informat...-combinations/

It has nothing to do with action strength. Every action I've seen leaves the last 1/8-3/16" of the case head unsupported. The case head is the fuse. If you get the action or barrel to burst, it was a really colossal screw up. Rupturing a case head is dangerous enough.

The issue is the throat on a SAAMI spec 223 chamber. Many 223 rifles are chambered with longer than SAAMI spec throats and 5.56 ammo will work, but you have no way of knowing. The only information you have is it says 223 on the barrel and will shoot 223 ammo without a problem.

And if a given 223 chamber does shoot 5.56 ammo with 55 grain FMJs, that's no guarantee it'll shoot 5.56 ammo with heavier bullets or different bullet constructions.

308/7.62 is not on the SAAMI list. That appears to be an internet extrapolation.
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Old 12-08-2018, 9:20 AM
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OK, we all have our opinions and conclusions. My opinion, your opinion, someones liability statement, etc.
But, AGAIN, can anyone post any examples that this is "flat" dangerous, given that millions of rounds that have been shot in both calibers?
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Old 12-08-2018, 9:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pofoo View Post
But, AGAIN, can anyone post any examples that this is "flat" dangerous, given that millions of rounds that have been shot in both calibers?
Apparently some of the folks who responded here have gotten away with shooting 5.56 ammo in a .223 without incident. That doesn't make it safe or wise. Moreover the fact that none of us can point to instances where using 5.56 ammo in a .223 led to an accident doesn't mean it hasn't happened or that it can't happen.

Challenging what you believe to be an "old wives tales" is fine when safety isn't an issue. In this case we're not talking about an old wives tale. We're talking about specific guidance from an organization that represents firearm manufacturers. Part of the problem with this thread is that some "newbie" is going to read it and come away thinking they have nothing to be concerned about because there's no proof that using 5.56 ammo in a .223 rifle is potentially dangerous.
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Old 12-08-2018, 10:30 AM
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I have yet to find a 5.56 round, USGI, ball, tracer, commercial, import, or any other flavor that has a throat datum measurement longer than a .223 sporting round. Therefore I must conclude the "pressure spikes" from a bullet jammed into the lands is not happening. Also, jamming bullets is a common practice with some shooters and does not raise pressures significantly. Some guys jump them some jamb them, whichever the gun likes for best accuracy. Jamming bullets is not recommended for gas guns. A tight neck or brass that is too long and rolled into the bullet when chambered can drive pressures up to the danger point.
Back when .223 rifles first hit the market, ALL we had to shoot in any quantity was PMC 5.56 ammo. USGI milspec ammo from Korea. Never saw a wrecked gun from that practice. EVERY .223 blow-up that I have seen in 45+ years of shooting has been from improperly loaded ammo. Most of the time it is from improperly sized cases leading to an out of battery, or partial battery fire.
Why do SAAMI and others advise against it? Not really sure but something tells me they are covering their butts. Same reason when you get a service rifle barrel from Krieger, it will be cut with a "5.56 Target KB" reamer. It has .080" more free bore than the original 5.56 Target chamber to give them a little wiggle room once the barrel goes out the door and the user possibly does something really stupid with it. The shooter will never know it and it will still more than accurate enough to win the Nationals.
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Old 12-08-2018, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pofoo View Post
OK, we all have our opinions and conclusions. My opinion, your opinion, someones liability statement, etc.
But, AGAIN, can anyone post any examples that this is "flat" dangerous, given that millions of rounds that have been shot in both calibers?


Prove that millions of rounds have been fired in the wrong chamber (in the potentially dangerous combination), in many variations of firearm manufacturer and model. If you’re trying to dispel myth you have the burden of proof, not those who are willing to accept the guidance of the firearm cartridge specification governing body.



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Old 12-08-2018, 10:38 AM
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Not 1 example of a extreme failure??
I totally understand that this is not recommended, and some people/organizations even recommend against it. But, without even 1 example of a problem, with factory ammo, how can anyone say or infer impending doom?
Wouldn't it be more correct to say that "in my opinion", or so and so "states", such and such?
The ONLY fact that I know of is that thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people have done this without any documented history of major problems.
Do you refute this?
I'm not saying that I recommend this. But, I also am not a chicken little because of some published opinions. I believe in real world facts and figures.

Last edited by Pofoo; 12-08-2018 at 10:43 AM..
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Old 12-08-2018, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pofoo View Post
...I also realize that thousands of people have done this over the years with 0 problems...
What is your factual basis for this, or is it just your opinion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pofoo View Post
...The main reason I started this post is that I hate internet fud and parrots. How many millions of rounds of 5.56 have been shot in .223 rifles?...
Zero millions of rounds, unless you have something factual to report, not just your opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pofoo View Post
The ONLY fact that I know of is that thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people have done this without any documented history of major problems. Do you refute this?
I'm not saying that I recommend this. But, I also am not a chicken little because of some published opinions. I believe in real world facts and figures.
Again, what is your factual basis for the statements above?


For a guy that hates internet FUD, it seems like you are OK with spreading your own FUD/opinions, not facts.
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Old 12-08-2018, 11:36 AM
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I stole this from another source, but it covers my understanding of the 5.56X45 .vs .223 Remington.

It is my understanding that the outer case dimensions of the .223 Remington and 5.56x45 cartridges are identical. At one time, the 5.56 cartridge case was a bit thicker near the case head than that of the .223 Rem so that the interior volume was a bit less, so that a given powder charge in a 5.56x45 case would develop a bit higher maximum pressure than the identical charge would in a .223 Rem case. I don't know if this is still the case, and if it is whether the difference applies to all 5.56 and .223 Rem cases.

The chamber dimensions for the 5.56x45 and .223 Rem barrels are distinctly different. This came about because of the need for the US Armed Forces and NATO to be able to use tracer rounds which required a longer, thicker projectile. With these tracer projectiles the ogive (the point at which the projectile became thick enough to contact the rifling in the barrel) was farther forward away from the case head. Use of these required chambering with a longer leade or freebore that had a less steep angle. The .223 Rem chamber has a shorter leade with a steeper angle. This means that the 5.56x45 chamber has a bit more overall volume.

The problem with using some 5.56x45 cartridges in a barrel chambered for .223 Rem is that some heavier, longer projectiles may have an ogive that contacts the rifling before the cartridge is fully chambered which can cause a bit of projectile set back into the case resulting in over-pressure. The other issue is that since the .223 Rem chamber has a bit less volume, for any given powder load chamber pressure will be a bit higher. With some 5.56x45 loads that have acceptable maximum case pressures in a 5.56 chamber, the case pressure in a .223 Rem chamber might be somewhat over maximum pressure limits.
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Old 12-08-2018, 11:57 AM
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FUD is FUD is FUD. Interchanged both in either chamber for years with no problem. Pressure differences are apples and oranges since they are measured in two different ways. Military chamber specs are a little looser to compensate for crud buildup in a wartime situation. Also due to heat buildup in rapid fire.
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Old 12-08-2018, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kendog4570 View Post
Back when .223 rifles first hit the market, ALL we had to shoot in any quantity was PMC 5.56 ammo. USGI milspec ammo from Korea. Never saw a wrecked gun from that practice.
I had the same experience in the early 1980's with my Remington 700V in .223 Rem. 1/12 twist. I shot lots of USGI M-193 5.56, Twin Cities, Lake City, WCC, FC etc. I didn't blow it up. I still have the rifle.
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Old 12-08-2018, 2:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjold View Post
It's because the leade of the 5.56 chamber is longer, (there is more taper cut in front of the lands.) This causes the 5.56 bullets to have more jump before they contact the lands where the maximum pressure is generated. The longer leade lets the bullet move forward with lower pressure. This creates a larger combustion area before the pressure peaks as the bullet contacts the lands which reduces the peak pressure. The 223 chamber with the short leade allows pressure to rise quicker and peak higher.
^^This^^

Lots of people get away with shooting 5.56 in 223 Rem chambered guns, but I still don’t do it. One thing to consider is if Mr A did it just fine during winter time in Colorado doesn’t make it safe when Mr B does the same during Summer time in Kalifornia.
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Old 12-08-2018, 2:59 PM
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This picture shows the chamber specs for the 5.56 Nato throat on top and the SAAMI spec throat for 223 Rem chamber on the bottom.



The SAAMI spec for 223 Remington pressure is:
Maximum pressure (SAAMI).........380 MPa (55,000 psi)

The US military has two different specs for their 5.56 ammo

Maximum pressure (EPVAT)..........430 MPa (62,366 psi)
Maximum pressure (SCATP 5.56)..380 MPa (55,114 psi)
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Old 12-08-2018, 5:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOBGBA View Post
What is your factual basis for this, or is it just your opinion?
Zero millions of rounds, unless you have something factual to report, not just your opinion.
Again, what is your factual basis for the statements above?
For a guy that hates internet FUD, it seems like you are OK with spreading your own FUD/opinions, not facts.
You obviously don't get to the range much, do you?
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  #37  
Old 12-09-2018, 12:28 AM
sigstroker sigstroker is offline
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Originally Posted by DesertDave100 View Post
The chamber dimensions for the 5.56x45 and .223 Rem barrels are distinctly different. This came about because of the need for the US Armed Forces and NATO to be able to use tracer rounds which required a longer, thicker projectile. With these tracer projectiles the ogive (the point at which the projectile became thick enough to contact the rifling in the barrel) was farther forward away from the case head.
Meh, both the red tip 55 gr and orange tip 62 gr tracers I've had look a lot like the same weight fmj's, as far as the part that sticks into the chamber. The 62 grainers are more obvious in that I got them on a belt mixed 1 in 5.

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Originally Posted by Fjold View Post
The SAAMI spec for 223 Remington pressure is:
Maximum pressure (SAAMI).........380 MPa (55,000 psi)

The US military has two different specs for their 5.56 ammo

Maximum pressure (EPVAT)..........430 MPa (62,366 psi)
Maximum pressure (SCATP 5.56)..380 MPa (55,114 psi)
EPVAT is a different method of measuring than SAAMI. SCATP is very similar to the SAAMI method, and the spec is basically the same as .223. The cartridges are loaded to the same pressure.
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  #38  
Old 12-09-2018, 6:52 AM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
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The 223 Remington and 5.56X45 are the same cartridge but one is using metric dimensions.

The 223 Remington and 5.56X45 both use 0.025 freebore.

The 5.56X45 NATO uses the same brass as the 223 Remington and 5.56X45.

The difference between the 223 Remington and the 5.56X45 NATO is the 5.56X45 NATO chamber has 0.061 freebore versus the 0.025 of the 223 Remington.

That's the big woopla 0.036 of Freebore.

If you use a Pacific Tool 223 Match Reamer the freebore is 0.068 or roughly 0.007 longer than the NATO round.

SAAMI recommends that you don't shoot 300 Blackout in your 223 as well.
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  #39  
Old 12-09-2018, 9:22 AM
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17+1 17+1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sd joe View Post
It only matters on the Internet.
This is the answer. People on the internet that have nothing better to do except tell you it will blow your gun up. Same guys that will tell you to buy that $2000+ AR15. Usually they all get out of the hobby a few years later because they were never really a shooter to begin with.

Check out 223 reloading data, it’s up there at what 5.56 factory ammo is advertised as, close enough to call it the same.
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  #40  
Old 12-09-2018, 10:15 AM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
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I think this is the bolt action forum?
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