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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: What are your feelings about Front Sight?
Great Training for Beginners Only. 76 8.13%
Great Training Beginner and Advanced. 630 67.38%
The Quality of Training is Going Down Hill. 20 2.14%
I paid too much for my Membership! 44 4.71%
They will go out of business this year! 22 2.35%
Don't want anything to do with them! 143 15.29%
Voters: 935. You may not vote on this poll

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  #10921  
Old 05-14-2019, 10:51 AM
mej16489 mej16489 is offline
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Originally Posted by tanks View Post
Yet, strangely in major matches (level II and above) most scores follow one's classification.
True, but is that because the classifier measures one's ability on a stage, or because both the classifier 'stages' and actual match scores both require an extreme level of focus and dedication to the task.
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  #10922  
Old 05-14-2019, 7:44 PM
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Originally Posted by nszzya View Post
. . .I would contend that any USPSA GM could pass the HCM test with minimal preparation.
I believe Naish has made a bet on that a few times. I understand a USPSA GM can take the class at FS at no charge if they would like (no membership required) with one caveat. If they qualify as HCM, they are good to go. Otherwise, they pay for the class. Don't think he has given away too many classes.
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  #10923  
Old 05-14-2019, 7:47 PM
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Originally Posted by LV_G22 View Post
And, that's the beauty of the HCM test.

All the opinions, hypotheses, and "talk" don't count...

The only thing that counts is taking a certified test, and passing!

There have been 30 people who have done it at Frontsight.
^^^^^ This! It is kind of like the skills tests in the basic classes. I hear from shooters all the time the beginning classes are too basic for them and that they are more advanced shooters but they don't score well on the skills test.

The problem with shooting is that it is a relatively simple skill to master intellectually. However, actually doing it in the real world is a different story. If you can't DG the basic class, how are your shooting skills too advanced?
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  #10924  
Old 05-14-2019, 8:14 PM
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Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
If you can't DG the basic class, how are your shooting skills too advanced?
SHOTS FIRED

I'll be going to Tactical HG and Adv. Tactical HG May 29 through June 1. Who's with me???
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  #10925  
Old 05-14-2019, 9:50 PM
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Looks like there should be a few of us there that weekend
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  #10926  
Old 05-14-2019, 10:15 PM
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I had fun years ago shooting sims in the tunnels. What are the classes called now that use sims and tunnels?

I also miss all the lunch lectures on escalation of force and how to drop the gun when the police arrive.
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  #10927  
Old 05-15-2019, 7:40 AM
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Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
I believe Naish has made a bet on that a few times. I understand a USPSA GM can take the class at FS at no charge if they would like (no membership required) with one caveat. If they qualify as HCM, they are good to go. Otherwise, they pay for the class. Don't think he has given away too many classes.
Disclaimer, I have not passed HCM or a USPSA GM.

It's funny. I have thought about this specific aspect of FS for a very long time, almost too much.. I believe a national champion level USPSA production GM could pass the shooting part of the HCM without too much trouble, but would not pass the malfunctions. I have taken classes and shot with world class shooters including Ben Stoeger ($495 for two days). As a production shooter, he needs to shoot alpha's to win (along with being fast). This is the same concept on the HCM shooting down zero's. The hard part would be getting him to spend time training on the FS target (rather than a USPSA target) and getting him to spend time at FS to take the test for free. Additionally, I am not sure his production gun, tanfolio, would qualify for the test.

I would sure like to see someone like him try to pass the HCM. I don't think the pressure of taking the test would get to him like it does most folks. I would think that trying to win a national championship or a world championship takes mental focus.
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  #10928  
Old 05-15-2019, 7:47 AM
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To follow up on the bored at FS comment...

When you take new shooters to FS, it get old... same old 4 day pistol...


SO
try a revolver for the class
Shoot with the opposite hand and eye- if you are a right handed, buy a $25 fobus holster and take the class left handed... left eye and left hand for 4 days...
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  #10929  
Old 05-15-2019, 8:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter View Post
Disclaimer, I have not passed HCM or a USPSA GM.

It's funny. I have thought about this specific aspect of FS for a very long time, almost too much.. I believe a national champion level USPSA production GM could pass the shooting part of the HCM without too much trouble, but would not pass the malfunctions. I have taken classes and shot with world class shooters including Ben Stoeger ($495 for two days). As a production shooter, he needs to shoot alpha's to win (along with being fast). This is the same concept on the HCM shooting down zero's. The hard part would be getting him to spend time training on the FS target (rather than a USPSA target) and getting him to spend time at FS to take the test for free. Additionally, I am not sure his production gun, tanfolio, would qualify for the test.

I would sure like to see someone like him try to pass the HCM. I don't think the pressure of taking the test would get to him like it does most folks. I would think that trying to win a national championship or a world championship takes mental focus.
Agreed. This was the point I was trying to make. Also, I don't think that malfunction clearances would pose any hurdle to someone like Stoeger. If he isn't already proficient at clearing type 3 malfunctions, I have no doubt that he could easily perform them given his weapon manipulation skills. I think your point about his trigger weight is valid.

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  #10930  
Old 05-15-2019, 8:17 AM
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I think I like 4 aces better..LOL From 6 years ago when he was shooting a Beretta. At 7 yards, draw, shoot two, reload, shoot two. Need to be all alphas. In the video, draw to first shot, .74, shot reload, shot, .88 overall time, 1.94 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7KlhYj4UUo
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  #10931  
Old 05-15-2019, 9:18 AM
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There are a lot of USPSA GM shooters out there who classified GM years ago but can't perform to that level anymore. Getting older, physical problems, etc. Out of all GMs there is a small percentage of them that perform at a 95% level or above at the biggest matches. You see a lot that shoot at 75 to 90%.

Its similar to professional sports. Anyone who makes a NFL team or Major League baseball team is very good. But there are big differences between bench warmers, starters, all star and hall of fame level players.
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  #10932  
Old 05-15-2019, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by SG29736 View Post
There are a lot of USPSA GM shooters out there who classified GM years ago but can't perform to that level anymore. Getting older, physical problems, etc. Out of all GMs there is a small percentage of them that perform at a 95% level or above at the biggest matches. You see a lot that shoot at 75 to 90%.

Its similar to professional sports. Anyone who makes a NFL team or Major League baseball team is very good. But there are big differences between bench warmers, starters, all star and hall of fame level players.
Are you talking about shooting 95% of available points or 95% of the winner? Two different things. If you are talking about available points, at last year's nationals (for production), Ben Stoeger won and only shot 89% of available points. Only the top 6 guys shot above 95% of the winners points.

If you are talking about shooting classifiers in major matches, that same match, had 29 GM's shooting. There where 9 stages that were classifiers in that match. No classifier stage had more than 10 GM shooters shoot at their classified level. More than half had less than 5. Some only had 1.


To bring this back to HCM, I think the top guys (with some FS focused practice) could pass. I don't think that every GM out there could. HCM is a goal to strive for and with time and practice, achieve. The same for getting to GM. I am not sure of the impact on either if those who have achieved those levels, tried to switch. Shooting classifiers is a skill that is very different than shooting matches. The same for shooting HCM, it's much different than shooting in a tactical scenario.

I think there is more prestige around HCM in our community than there is for a GM. I am not sure what people would think if a bunch of USPSA GM's came in an passed the HCM test. What would people say if the test was set up at a national match and 20 guys passed on a single day.
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  #10933  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
To follow up on the bored at FS comment...

When you take new shooters to FS, it get old... same old 4 day pistol...


SO
try a revolver for the class
Shoot with the opposite hand and eye- if you are a right handed, buy a $25 fobus holster and take the class left handed... left eye and left hand for 4 days...


Or an $85 left handed Bladetech from the pro shop with your Iggy bucks


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  #10934  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter View Post
Are you talking about shooting 95% of available points or 95% of the winner? Two different things. If you are talking about available points, at last year's nationals (for production), Ben Stoeger won and only shot 89% of available points. Only the top 6 guys shot above 95% of the winners points.

If you are talking about shooting classifiers in major matches, that same match, had 29 GM's shooting. There where 9 stages that were classifiers in that match. No classifier stage had more than 10 GM shooters shoot at their classified level. More than half had less than 5. Some only had 1.


To bring this back to HCM, I think the top guys (with some FS focused practice) could pass. I don't think that every GM out there could. HCM is a goal to strive for and with time and practice, achieve. The same for getting to GM. I am not sure of the impact on either if those who have achieved those levels, tried to switch. ShootiJust 9 okng classifiers is a skill that is very different than shooting matches. The same for shooting HCM, it's much different than shooting in a tactical scenario.

I think there is more prestige around HCM in our community than there is for a GM. I am not sure what people would think if a bunch of USPSA GM's came in an passed the HCM test. What would people say if the test was set up at a national match and 20 guys passed on a single day.
I'm refering to 95% of the winner at major matches with quite a few GMs per division. Shooting classifiers at the nationals precludes shooters from going for "hero or zero" as they might do at a local match. Can't afford to do that at nationals. Thats why youll see lower level GMs who shoot 80% of the winner at big matches. Going to FS to shoot the HCM test is not on the radar for top USPSA shooters.

Have any of the shooters who passed the HCM test gone over to USPSA and seen where they placed? There's not a lot of moving and stage planning and various moving targets in the HCM test is there?
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  #10935  
Old 05-15-2019, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by SG29736 View Post
Going to FS to shoot the HCM test is not on the radar for top USPSA shooters.
The HCM test isn't on their radar because it will do nothing to make them better at USPSA. The GM I know that practices the test does so because in his world he wants to ramp the speed/accuracy game in ways outside that scope.

Quote:

Have any of the shooters who passed the HCM test gone over to USPSA and seen where they placed?
I don't know of any.

Quote:
There's not a lot of moving and stage planning and various moving targets in the HCM test is there?
There is almost no movement.
1) Palm-strike step back; which is a free +10 for nearly anyone
2) the 15 responses involve either 90 or 180 degrees.

The only movement of the actual targets is them rotating about the center-line 90 degrees. The targets begin facing away from you at 90 degrees. The start signal is when they begin turning. The targets hit par-time facing 45 degrees from the shooter (and continue on to 90 degrees away)

So technically speaking the shooter must 'react' to the turning target as the signal to engage. The reality is that most of the range keep a fairly predictable cadence. "This will be a controlled pair to the thoracic cavity...the line is set...ready...(target begins rotation)" People will complain if its called too erratically.
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  #10936  
Old 05-15-2019, 5:09 PM
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The skills tested in the HCM test would help a USPSA shooter be better as far as the pure shooting part of USPSA. But there are a lot of other aspects of being the best in USPSA that the test doesn't involve.
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  #10937  
Old 05-15-2019, 5:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter View Post
Disclaimer, I have not passed HCM or a USPSA GM.

It's funny. I have thought about this specific aspect of FS for a very long time, almost too much.. I believe a national champion level USPSA production GM could pass the shooting part of the HCM without too much trouble, but would not pass the malfunctions. I have taken classes and shot with world class shooters including Ben Stoeger ($495 for two days). As a production shooter, he needs to shoot alpha's to win (along with being fast). This is the same concept on the HCM shooting down zero's. The hard part would be getting him to spend time training on the FS target (rather than a USPSA target) and getting him to spend time at FS to take the test for free. Additionally, I am not sure his production gun, tanfolio, would qualify for the test.

I would sure like to see someone like him try to pass the HCM. I don't think the pressure of taking the test would get to him like it does most folks. I would think that trying to win a national championship or a world championship takes mental focus.
But the real question is, would he 'Look, Move, Verify'?
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  #10938  
Old 05-15-2019, 6:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SG29736 View Post
The skills tested in the HCM test would help a USPSA shooter be better as far as the pure shooting part of USPSA. But there are a lot of other aspects of being the best in USPSA that the test doesn't involve.
Most USPSA shooters' guns would not pass the trigger test. My limited guns have a trigger pull of 1.25lbs.
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  #10939  
Old 05-15-2019, 9:11 PM
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Originally Posted by tanks View Post
Most USPSA shooters' guns would not pass the trigger test. My limited guns have a trigger pull of 1.25lbs.
That's true for the guns that most use in USPSA. They'd have to use the equipment that fits the rules just as they do for different divisions.
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  #10940  
Old 05-16-2019, 6:59 AM
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Originally Posted by AR15fan View Post
Other places are 1000x the cost. Unless I’m missing something, FS is essentially free...
What is your time worth? I'd rather pay $795 for 3 days at a place like Tactical Performance Center at St. George, UT (https://classes.tacticalperformancec...ndgun-mastery/) for great training than mediocre training elsewhere even if free.
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  #10941  
Old 05-16-2019, 7:32 AM
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Quote:
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What is your time worth? I'd rather pay $795 for 3 days at a place like Tactical Performance Center at St. George, UT (https://classes.tacticalperformancec...ndgun-mastery/) for great training than mediocre training elsewhere even if free.
We don’t agree that the training at FS is mediocre in general. And certainly the Tactical, Advanced Tactical and HCM Training at FS is not mediocre.
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  #10942  
Old 05-16-2019, 7:37 AM
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Well the doubling of Patronage Points in now $497.00. It was $197.00

It is supposed to keep escalating with each round of offers.



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  #10943  
Old 05-16-2019, 7:43 AM
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We don’t agree that the training at FS is mediocre in general. And certainly the Tactical, Advanced Tactical and HCM Training at FS is not mediocre.
TPC is a great place. I recently took a two day competition mastery for $495. Great class and since it was local to me, no travel, no hotel, etc. It was a different skill set being taught than what is taught at FS. There is always a trade off in costs. At FS, while the classes are free, you still have to get there. Unless you live in southern NV, you have to pay those costs. However, if you have a president membership with private training, you can get them to train on almost anything you want. That is way more valuable than the normal classes.
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  #10944  
Old 05-16-2019, 8:33 AM
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Firearms training is America's martial art. My kung fu is more powerful than yours. My dojo is better than your dojo. My sensei will kick your sensei's @ss. In the end, it's a personal reflection on why and where you train.

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  #10945  
Old 05-16-2019, 10:25 AM
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sweep the leg!
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  #10946  
Old 05-16-2019, 11:43 AM
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Acegunner
If America had a martial art then you are correct it would be firearms. Probably the best analogy I have heard.
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  #10947  
Old 05-16-2019, 2:05 PM
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Quote:
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sweep the leg!






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  #10948  
Old 05-19-2019, 11:38 AM
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My wife is new to firearms and has taken a few entry level handgun and safety classes. I had never heard of Front Site before, but she had. A lady in one of her classes had apparently raved about Front Site to her.

So we find ourselves at an auction and bid on a “Commander” membership, then we won it.

I have been researching Front Site since, and am now trying to figure out the best way to maximize the membership for us. Should we get a second membership so we can both go at same time?

My wife mainly wants to build proficiency where she feels comfortable carrying her handgun, I am interested in many of the classes too. I work full time and would have trouble going to very many 4-day classes. My wife doesn’t work, so she could probably go more often than me. We also have adult kids grandkids that we think could benefit from some additional firearms training.
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  #10949  
Old 05-19-2019, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by middleofnowhere View Post
My wife is new to firearms and has taken a few entry level handgun and safety classes.

....


I have been researching Front Site since, and am now trying to figure out the best way to maximize the membership for us. Should we get a second membership so we can both go at same time?

....
My Wife is new to firearms, as well. Her first class was actually with Front Sight:




That said, get a membership for the entire family. My wife and two boys have Diamond membership each. While I have a President membership so I can get private training - which is good because I can most probably go through a 4-day curriculum in around 2-days or less 1-on-1 (same as you, I don't have the luxury of taking off for a 4-day class).



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  #10950  
Old 05-19-2019, 1:07 PM
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yeah, get a 2nd membership. There's plenty of people here who could get you one for a very reasonable price.

if you can get out and train with her, great. IF not, start with a 2 day class (schedule permitting) and go from there.
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  #10951  
Old 05-19-2019, 2:18 PM
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middleofnowwhere - welcome good group here with lots of FS knowledge. I just wish I was somewhere more west for an easy commute to FS.
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  #10952  
Old 05-19-2019, 6:12 PM
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So what's everyone's training calendar looking like this summer?

I've got Adv Tactical on the 31st and then I think that's it for shooting classes until the fall.
Actually just signed up for Empty Hands and Edge weapons in June, been wanting to take those for a while and figured I might as well do it this summer.
Other than that I think I'm going to do some training locally and then get back out to FS starting in September and get in 3 or 4 classes before the end of the year.

That's the plan at least.
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  #10953  
Old 05-19-2019, 6:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi54 View Post
So what's everyone's training calendar looking like this summer?

I've got Adv Tactical on the 31st and then I think that's it for shooting classes until the fall.
Actually just signed up for Empty Hands and Edge weapons in June, been wanting to take those for a while and figured I might as well do it this summer.
Other than that I think I'm going to do some training locally and then get back out to FS starting in September and get in 3 or 4 classes before the end of the year.

That's the plan at least.
I’ve got Skill Builder with a buddy that hasn’t G’d or DG’d yet on June 21.

Hopefully he’ll G and then he can do Tac and Adv Tac with me.
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  #10954  
Old 05-19-2019, 6:36 PM
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Edge Weapon sounds really interesting to mix it up.
4 day Marksmanship Rifle in October.


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  #10955  
Old 05-19-2019, 6:47 PM
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rodralig rodralig is offline
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So what's everyone's training calendar looking like this summer?
THG and ATHG immediately post-Memorial Day... That will probably be it for me at FS for this year (because of work/projects).

The rest of the summer will be one or two local classes during the weekend.

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Old 05-20-2019, 1:41 AM
Jerry1834 Jerry1834 is offline
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Some local stuff - what to do if type stuff (active shooter etc) - then FS in Oct with our large group.

Anyone know if I can order targets from FS and will they ship them to me?
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Old 05-20-2019, 5:41 AM
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LCU1670 LCU1670 is offline
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So what's everyone's training calendar looking like this summer?

I've got Adv Tactical on the 31st and then I think that's it for shooting classes until the fall.
Actually just signed up for Empty Hands and Edge weapons in June, been wanting to take those for a while and figured I might as well do it this summer.
Other than that I think I'm going to do some training locally and then get back out to FS starting in September and get in 3 or 4 classes before the end of the year.

That's the plan at least.
Wife and I will be there june- July for day, then 4th night courses.
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Old 05-20-2019, 6:25 AM
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Every year I tell myself I'm going to do the night courses but then I don't.
One day.
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Old 05-20-2019, 9:14 AM
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So what's everyone's training calendar looking like this summer?
No more FS until the Fall. We swore we’ll avoid the heat since our 109 degree days in 2016. Those were horrible.

Will probably do a Marksmanship class in October. Building up a new light weight AR for it. Surely will do THG/ATHG cause the wife loves it.

Might do scoped tactical rifle class/fieldcraft class with LMS Defense if I can get back into fighting shape in the summer. Gotta show these young uns old guys rule LOL


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Old 05-20-2019, 10:34 AM
Jerry1834 Jerry1834 is offline
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Called FS and they don't sell/mail out targets - guess I'll need to buy more in Oct and mail them home....
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