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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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Bloomberg on Smartguns
Not a whole lot we don't already know.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-04-15/the-smart-gun-doesn-t-exist-because-of-new-jersey-and-the-nra?utm_source=pocket-newtab Quote:
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#2
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Nice to see the truth coming out though. More articles like this need to come out. Fingerprint tech is a novelty at best for small electronics. RFID can be so easily tampered with it's laughable.
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#3
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Agreed, I read that article yesterday and based on the title expected the usual drivel. Surprised at the content. About the only thing in there that was crap was the "well meaning" tag for Weinberg and her smart gun law. Which we know is BS, and was 100% the first step to removing legacy guns from sale.
But on smart guns themselves, it is an article that I hope is widely read. |
#4
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#5
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Everyone wants safer, better, more reliable firearms. Of that there is no doubt. Yes, it's bad and stifles innovation.
... but they are the ones that poisoned the well. They should not feign surprise at the results. Quote:
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#7
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Development of "smart guns" is linked to a prohibition on those that are not "smart gun compliant". That requirement was made by gun control proponents, who make the usual public safety assertions. They state they want to encourage development of "smart guns". I think they want to do the opposite. Development of new technology has not been linked to a prohibition of the old in any field I can recall. We still ride in prop planes, we still use candles for light. Would TESLA exist if it meant the end of internal combustion engines? Of course not. New technology would have never been developed if it meant killing off a company's revenue stream of existing products. New technology also expands markets. There are plenty of people that don't particularly care for guns but would buy one if they could be assured a child or other unauthorized person couldn't use it, harmless if stolen. Single woman, older folks. Parents with kids. City folks in general. They might buy a smart gun. And maybe they'd become comfortable with guns and buy something else, like a plain old handgun or shotgun. That's what the "smart gun law" is designed to prevent, is my POV. Link development to killing the "meat and potatoes" gun company product, thereby poisoning the field and preventing an expansion of the market. We should think about that the next time someone accidentally hurts or kills themselves, or takes someone else's gun (Newtown for example) and uses it in a crime. Put the blood where it belongs. |
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#11
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I believe forum member 'dfletcher' is spot on when he stated that the development of smart guns will be linked to a complete prohibition on those that are not smart gun compliant. You don't think so, then how about this. On October 24, 2013 the Armatix iP1 was placed on the roster as the iP1 was originally submitted before the microstamping requirement. On June 13, 2014 the Armatix iP1 Limited Edition was placed on the roster making it a second owner-id handgun to be placed on the roster. The iP1 Limited Edition gets added to the roster since the changes simply added components separate from the iP1 handgun, and was basically marketed by Armatix in the form of a newly-named package. The operating distance enhancement did not change the metallurgy, dimensions, design, or the wiring, gates, and switches on the electronic circuit board, or any of the physical hardware components of the iP1 Limited Edition handgun as compared to the originally introduced iP1. So the iP1 Limited Edition qualified under the same requirements which were in effect when the iP1 was originally certified on January 24, 2013 by the United States Test Laboratory in Wichita, Kansas. At that time California in 2014, you had in the hopper "SB-293 Firearms: owner-authorized handguns". Its basic premise was if two owner-authorized handguns have been placed on the roster, the bill would, commencing two years from the date that the second handgun was placed on the roster, prohibit the Department of Justice from placing a handgun on the roster that is not an owner-authorized handgun. Last edited by KHF1222; 05-02-2019 at 5:27 AM.. Reason: Add a missing preposition. |
#12
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If a state wants to support ID-locked firearms ("smart" is a pretty steep misnomer here) development, then have the state offer a rebate for adopting the technology, ala solar panels and electric cars.
This, obviously, would be political suicide. |
#14
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maintenance updates to fix bugs does not instill confidence in firearm reliability. The present technology is too immature, subject to high severity errors leading to failures, and subject to signaling false positives. Sound of phone ringing............ Technical Support #1: Thank you for calling Wishy Washy Wonder Weapons of Walla Walla, Washington. My name is Bob. How can I be of service to you today? Customer: Um, I'm Josephine and there's a burglar attacking me because the green LED indicator light won't go on no matter how many times I press my fingerprint on the biometric sensor, and the backup facial recognition option fails with a 0F4 in that really tiny display window on the handgun. Technical Support #1: Oh, a hex code 'zero fox four' is a memory exception due to a storage overlay. Did you try performing a power-on reset to reactivate the software on the handgun? Customer: Yes, I reset twice and on the third try I had to stop because I was getting violently assaulted. Technical Support #1: Ok, do you know the model number of the handgun, and the firmware version, release, and modification level you have? Customer: Geez, I really don't know. It would be whatever the gun came with when I bought it! Technical Support #1: Oh I see. Ok, there is a new firmware update that may fix that issue. I will open a problem ticket and create an incident number for you. Are you ready to copy? Customer: I'm a little busy right now fighting off my attacker! Technical Support #1: Ok, sorry you are experiencing some technical difficulties, but we may have a solution for you! You can grab a USB 2.0 cable, plug the cable into the handgun, then plug the other end into a USB port on your laptop, sign up for a free Wonder Weapons account, download the latest firmware, upload to your handgun, and then do a reboot with a power-on reset to reactivate the software and you will be ready to go! Do you have a couple of minutes while I have you on the line? Customer: hissing sound of static...no response Technical Support #1: Josephine, are you there? Technical Support #1: Hey Richard, the stupid customer abandoned the call. Technical Support #2: (Richard) The nerve of some customers. Close the problem ticket number with solution 'Customer no longer pursuing' to keep our problem count low. Technical Support #1: Ok, I closed it. Next customer. Last edited by KHF1222; 05-03-2019 at 11:05 PM.. Reason: Grammer correction |
#15
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I'd really like to have a "smart gun". Make it reliable and you'll have millions of firearms owners (or wannabe owners) willing to pay at least some premium to get one.
But the thing can't run on batteries. Not really an option if you are going to be moving through backcountry and will be traveling light. Also, not good in a SHTF situation where batteries may not be available. Can't be subject to EMP. Too many developing scenarios where this could happen. And people tend to ignore this, but we will eventually be hit with a CME which will do much the same thing. We really should be preparing for the big CME because the statistics are a slam-dunk that it happens, but three days from now or three decades from now is what we don't know. Can't be adversely affected by cold, heat, wet, or grime. Again, this kind of goes back to the battery when it comes to the cold - most batteries don't do as well in the cold. Can't be more bulky or prone to mechanical/electronic failure than is a non-smart firearm. This may be technically possible but appears pretty unlikely in the near future. Have to be able to use with gloves, cold-weather masks, etc. My wife and a few others would have to be able to use it. But it has to be un-hackable. Good luck, I doubt this one will ever be achieved. It can't link to the Internet or anything else I don't find to be necessary. This would be a security hazard. Any delay in function due to electronics or anything else must be measured in just a few milliseconds (something like 3 ms). IOW, the delay must be negligible. The market for a good smart firearm I think would be huge. If they ever come up with the tech to make one they'll sell like crazy. The problem is that I don't see the tech for it within my lifetime or that of my children or grandchildren. The point is that the free market will create the smart firearm when the tech is available. Laws won't speed the development more than will the market so the laws are, at the very best one can imagine, useless.
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CGN's token life-long teetotaling vegetarian. Don't consider anything I post as advice or as anything more than opinion (if even that). |
#16
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I don’t have readable fingerprints — and in fact they are different every month.
I am so glad that Apple introduced Face ID, because touch ID was a no go for me. I don’t play well with anything that uses fingerprints. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
#17
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If your iPhone fails to open with your print, you might be inconvenience slightly by missing your wife's call.
If your smart gun fails to recognize your print.....well you get the idea. The one thing that I will say that people are currently doing that at some point the pro smart gun crowd will grasp a hold of and use against us is: Quote:
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#18
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Anyone who has ever owned a smartphone with a fingerprint reader can see that this technology is nowhere near ready for gun use, and may never be ready. It takes several tries quite often. It takes at least a second. The more in a hurry and distracted I am, the more likely it is to not work. If I've just washed my hands it often doesn't work. And don't forget to keep the battery charged. The RFID stuff might be more reliable but it has its own other problems. It means having to wear something all the time, which might also fail.
For home storage, biometric safes seem like a reasonable idea. I haven't tried it but I like the idea of the one that's based on hand size / finger length. It's not high security but it should be quick and independent of sweating or dirt. But I don't see any way that could be incorporated into a gun.
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"Weakness is provocative." Senator Tom Cotton, president in 2024 Victoria "Tori" Rose Smith's life mattered. |
#19
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You named several reasons that you could get killed trying to get your gun, then say it seems like it's reasonable? Personally, I don't like those odds. I'm not familiar with any of those handgun safes. Can you give an example of one? Is that a new biometric technology? |
#20
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No it isn't. Fingerprint readers don't work for anything that needs to be fast and reliable. I said that clearly.
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Fingerprint readers could be made physically small enough to go on a gun but they are not viable. Finger length readers do seem like they would be fast and reliable, but there's no way to put them on a gun. I don't have children at home but if I did, I would definitely not leave a gun unlocked anywhere, and I would want a hand scanner safe if they would make one. As it is, I do have a regular combination safe, which there's no way I could access under stress and in the dark. I actually can't find one built into a safe. It would be cool to have one... Quote:
Look, anyone who has guns at home should have a safe storage option, and if that safe storage option uses something like a hand scanner for fast access, cool. How is it bad to say, "this quick-access biometric technology is great for home storage"? That's all I'm saying. I said very clearly there's no fingerprint reader that's viable for use on a gun. A gun and a safe are two different things with different constraints and possibilities. I did see there are a lot of fingerprint home gun safes and they all have combination access as a backup. I'm pretty sure these are low security fingerprint readers but would keep children out, which is what they are really for. They couldn't possibly be effectively built into a gun. Also there's a big difference between access times needed on a carry gun vs. on a home gun. Usually in an attack in a home, there's some early warning, such as a sound of breaking a door, giving the user a few seconds or more to access it. For a CCW type situation, time is much less than that. Someone attacking with a knife, for example, gives no warning and fractions of a second count. A slow access method that might be suitable for home use wouldn't be suitable for a carry gun.
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"Weakness is provocative." Senator Tom Cotton, president in 2024 Victoria "Tori" Rose Smith's life mattered. |
#23
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Then why does the California Roster still exist? All it does is prevent us from buying safer, better, more reliable firearms.
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Anchors Aweigh |
#24
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As you point out, there apparently is one manufacturer of a hand scanner and with a price of $1500 you won't see it on a quick access handgun safe any time soon. Hell, people complain about spending $300 on one. Last edited by FAS1; 05-06-2019 at 6:59 AM.. |
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#26
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But just looking at these things, it doesn't physically fit on a gun. I work in technology and my analysis is that a smart gun would need the following:
I don't see any way to do this. The only access methods that are even being considered are fingerprint and RFID and they don't meet the criteria. I didn't even list "affordable" as a criterion, because I don't think you can achieve the four points above at any price, because of the fundamental facts of fingerprints. I could summarize it another way:
A level 2 holster does introduce probably 100ms to 200ms delay, so that's what I would pick as an accepptable access delay. Fingerprint readers can't do that; they seem to take about 1 second. Maybe with some big technology advanced that could come down. A level 2 holster is not affected by liquids, dirt, or gloves, and that seems to be a fundamental issue that no fingerprint reader technology could address. And a level 2 holster doesn't require fine motor movements, which again seems to be a fundamental issue that no fingerprint reader technology could address. A fingerprint sensor is not fast and not reliable, and RFID is fast but not perfectly reliable and basically just moves the security problem from one physical object to another. I did see this design for a smart holster: which is also just a 3d rendering, not an actual thing, and doesn't solve any fundamental problems with fingerprint readers or RFID. There's no technology that can make this viable on a gun. But I hope someone would incorporate that hand scanner idea into a quick-access home storage device!
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"Weakness is provocative." Senator Tom Cotton, president in 2024 Victoria "Tori" Rose Smith's life mattered. Last edited by CCWFacts; 05-06-2019 at 7:53 AM.. |
#27
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I embrace new technology in smart gun design. However, when the owner-id technology advances to the point that if our
fictional character 'Josephine' had both an old fashioned S&W .38 snubby and a Wishy Washy Wonder Weapons device, she could grab either one with equal confidence they would work with total reliability. Gets surprised in the shower when completely wet, or with soapy hands when washing dishes in the kitchen, or wearing latex gloves cleaning the counter top, comes into the house with grime on her hands from gardening, or any one of normal household activities that could impact a smart gun sensor. You know that .38 snubby is going to work. |
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