Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > INTERESTS AND ACTIVITIES > Ammo and Reloading
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Ammo and Reloading Factory Ammunition, Reloading, Components, Load Data and more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-22-2022, 3:30 AM
blockfort's Avatar
blockfort blockfort is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,184
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default need projectile suggestions (223, 16" 1:8 AR, H4895 or IMR 4064)

going to start reloading for my new AR. 16" heavy barrel, 1:8 twist. I have H4895 and IMR 4064. will test at 100y and likely not shoot past 300y.

Main purpose for now is just to find the limits of accuracy for my rifle.

should I just go for SIE HPBT 77 grain or is there a good reason to try for something lighter (or heavier)?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-22-2022, 6:29 AM
blockfort's Avatar
blockfort blockfort is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,184
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripplet918 View Post
I like 69 grain on my 1/8. Better groups that 75 gr for me. I believe the projectiles on the Remington match ammo I shoot are Sierra Matchking HPBTs.
I should get some 55s, 69s, and 77s for a thorough test
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-22-2022, 9:55 AM
ar15barrels's Avatar
ar15barrels ar15barrels is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Van Nuys
Posts: 53,920
iTrader: 113 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blockfort View Post
going to start reloading for my new AR. 16" heavy barrel, 1:8 twist. I have H4895 and IMR 4064. will test at 100y and likely not shoot past 300y.

Main purpose for now is just to find the limits of accuracy for my rifle.

should I just go for SIE HPBT 77 grain or is there a good reason to try for something lighter (or heavier)?
H4895 looks like the winner with a 69gr SMK:

Code:
Cartridge          : .223 Rem. (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .224, 69, Sierra HPBT MatchK 1380 G7 Litz
Useable Case Capaci: 25.121 grain H2O = 1.631 cm≥
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm
Barrel Length      : 16.0 inch = 406.4 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 55000 psi, or 379 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 102 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

18 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 60%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant AR-Comp *C *T              102.0     22.8     1.48    2760   100.0    55000   10539   0.840  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester 748                      98.2     24.5     1.59    2747    96.1    55000   11405   0.840  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon BL-C2                      100.8     25.5     1.65    2736    94.8    55000   11542   0.848  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 2520                      101.3     24.7     1.60    2731    96.9    55000   11259   0.856  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H322                        98.7     22.2     1.44    2717    98.5    55000   10748   0.842  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H335                        93.1     23.5     1.52    2712    97.7    55000   10919   0.847  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H4895                      102.0     23.6     1.53    2710    94.0    54522   11281   0.854  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot Wild Boar                  100.5     24.9     1.61    2710    93.1    55000   11222   0.846  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan SP 10                   92.6     22.9     1.48    2709    97.6    55000   10889   0.850  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 2495                      102.0     23.1     1.50    2700    99.2    51891   11160   0.900  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 *C                  98.4     22.9     1.48    2699    95.1    55000   10939   0.848  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-10x *C              96.0     21.0     1.36    2695    99.9    55000   10257   0.858  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 8208 XBR                       100.4     23.3     1.51    2689    95.0    55000   10809   0.849  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 2460                       96.3     24.0     1.55    2687    96.1    55000   10804   0.866  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-12                  98.1     23.2     1.50    2682    98.5    55000   10404   0.848  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Shooters World Match Rifle         102.0     24.3     1.58    2682    96.3    51881   11097   0.879  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2015                       98.9     21.9     1.42    2680    99.7    55000   10178   0.864  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma 200 *C                        92.2     20.9     1.35    2678   100.0    55000   10036   0.873  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma 202 *C                       102.0     23.2     1.51    2676    97.3    52739   10816   0.868  ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World AR Plus              94.7     23.5     1.52    2676    96.0    55000   10607   0.861  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan SP 9                   102.0     24.4     1.58    2670    92.6    53097   10968   0.861  ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 7                   101.1     25.1     1.63    2668    90.2    55000   10831   0.857  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 2230                       95.6     24.0     1.55    2668    94.2    55000   10608   0.858  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4198                            94.9     19.7     1.28    2663   100.0    55000    9498   0.841  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot X-Terminator *C             97.1     24.0     1.55    2658    93.1    55000   10594   0.854  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot TAC *C                      99.5     24.8     1.61    2658    89.4    55000   10755   0.853  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 2200                       99.4     23.4     1.51    2655    90.9    55000   10576   0.849  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon Benchmark                   98.8     22.5     1.46    2652    95.8    55000   10315   0.853  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Shooters World Tactical Rifle       93.7     23.1     1.50    2650    94.5    55000   10304   0.852  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Shooters World Tactical Rifle       93.7     23.1     1.50    2650    94.5    55000   10304   0.852  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester 296                      70.7     17.6     1.14    2649   100.0    55000    9303   0.864  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 1680                       82.7     20.0     1.29    2647    99.2    55000    9796   0.849  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-7                   89.6     20.1     1.30    2645   100.0    55000    9579   0.860  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N130 *C                  98.4     21.3     1.38    2644    99.9    55000    9640   0.857  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 5744                       78.8     17.5     1.13    2644   100.0    55000    9513   0.843  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Shooters World Buffalo Rifle        80.6     17.5     1.13    2644   100.0    55000    9513   0.843  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma 201 *C                       102.0     23.1     1.50    2641    94.4    52149   10757   0.885  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031                           102.0     22.1     1.43    2639    97.8    46832   10927   0.904  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895                           102.0     23.6     1.53    2637    91.5    49021   11202   0.895  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4198                       91.3     19.9     1.29    2631    98.4    55000    9630   0.844  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Shooters World Blackout             75.8     18.3     1.19    2620   100.0    55000    9106   0.843  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon CFE BLK *C                  89.9     22.1     1.43    2619    95.2    55000    9958   0.856  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N120 *C                  92.8     19.6     1.27    2618   100.0    55000    8755   0.858  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot Big Game                   102.0     25.2     1.63    2617    90.3    48309   11016   0.891  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227                       85.8     18.2     1.18    2617   100.0    55000    8817   0.847  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon CFE223 *C                  102.0     25.8     1.67    2616    88.4    48335   11136   0.890  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N125 *C                  87.5     18.8     1.22    2614   100.0    55000    8742   0.859  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N540 *C                 102.0     23.9     1.55    2610    96.2    49042   10630   0.896  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227                            85.2     18.0     1.17    2605   100.0    55000    8766   0.846  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-15 *C              102.0     23.6     1.53    2602    90.2    47979   10920   0.905  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N133 *C                 102.0     21.6     1.40    2593    99.1    51019    9607   0.879  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B *C                      102.0     23.6     1.53    2589    90.7    46996   10883   0.913  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate No.11 FS                   76.1     18.2     1.18    2585   100.0    55000    8472   0.855  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H110                        72.1     17.9     1.16    2585   100.0    55000    8556   0.869  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon Lil'Gun                     70.7     17.0     1.10    2558   100.0    55000    8125   0.876  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Shooters World Precision           102.0     23.0     1.49    2558    92.7    46616   10460   0.926
IMR 4320                           102.0     23.2     1.51    2545    89.6    46031   10312   0.909
Hodgdon H380                       102.0     24.1     1.56    2536    87.0    45720   10517   0.929
SNPE Vectan SP 11                  102.0     24.4     1.58    2526    88.3    43363   10654   0.937
Accurate 4064                      102.0     23.1     1.50    2525    95.0    42518   10752   0.986
Norma 203 old                      102.0     23.9     1.55    2523    90.5    42952   10694   0.958
Alliant 2400                        68.1     15.0     0.97    2521   100.0    55000    7675   0.859  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 4100                       69.6     16.6     1.08    2519   100.0    55000    7675   0.863  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon VARGET *T                  102.0     22.9     1.48    2519    89.0    45735   10102   0.919
Vihtavuori N110 *C                  81.2     15.9     1.03    2513   100.0    55000    7596   0.868  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot Enforcer                    66.7     15.8     1.02    2500   100.0    55000    7504   0.868  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4064                           102.0     22.3     1.45    2493    88.9    44491    9944   0.935
__________________
Randall Rausch

AR work: www.ar15barrels.com
Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com
Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com
Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns.
Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-22-2022, 9:56 AM
ar15barrels's Avatar
ar15barrels ar15barrels is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Van Nuys
Posts: 53,920
iTrader: 113 / 100%
Default

H4895 is also the winner with a 77SMK:
Code:
Cartridge          : .223 Rem. (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .224, 77, Sierra HPBT MatchK 9377G G7
Useable Case Capaci: 24.054 grain H2O = 1.562 cm≥
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm
Barrel Length      : 16.0 inch = 406.4 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 55000 psi, or 379 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 102 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

19 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 60%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant AR-Comp *C *T              100.6     21.6     1.40    2606   100.0    55000   10018   0.883  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester 748                      97.0     23.1     1.50    2605    97.1    55000   11023   0.882  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon BL-C2                       99.6     24.1     1.56    2597    95.9    55000   11196   0.889  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 2495                      102.0     22.1     1.43    2594    99.8    54613   10743   0.922  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 2520                      100.0     23.4     1.52    2589    97.8    55000   10860   0.898  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Shooters World Match Rifle         102.0     23.3     1.51    2579    97.7    54335   10829   0.903  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H4895                      101.0     22.4     1.45    2578    95.2    55000   10959   0.893  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot Wild Boar                   99.3     23.5     1.52    2572    94.3    55000   10901   0.887  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H322                        97.4     21.0     1.36    2571    99.2    55000   10310   0.885  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H335                        91.9     22.2     1.44    2569    98.4    55000   10519   0.889  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma 202 *C                       102.0     22.2     1.44    2568    98.5    54969   10532   0.895  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan SP 10                   91.4     21.7     1.40    2565    98.4    55000   10479   0.893  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan SP 9                   101.9     23.3     1.51    2563    94.4    55000   10780   0.889  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N530 *C                  97.2     21.7     1.40    2558    96.2    55000   10577   0.891  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 8208 XBR                        99.2     22.0     1.43    2549    96.1    55000   10455   0.891  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 2460                       95.1     22.7     1.47    2547    97.1    55000   10430   0.908  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-10x *C              94.7     19.8     1.28    2545   100.0    55000    9753   0.902  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-12                  96.9     21.9     1.42    2539    99.1    55000    9998   0.891  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4895                           102.0     22.6     1.47    2539    93.5    51152   11043   0.920  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 201 *C                       102.0     22.1     1.43    2538    96.0    54307   10541   0.911  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Shooters World AR Plus              93.6     22.2     1.44    2536    97.0    55000   10239   0.904  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 3031                           102.0     21.1     1.37    2536    99.0    49038   10600   0.929  ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 7                    99.9     23.8     1.54    2534    91.5    55000   10550   0.899  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 2015                       97.5     20.7     1.34    2533    99.9    55000    9704   0.907  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 2230                       94.4     22.7     1.47    2530    95.4    55000   10274   0.901  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma 200 *C                        90.9     19.7     1.28    2528   100.0    55000    9523   0.917  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot TAC *C                      98.4     23.5     1.52    2524    90.8    55000   10487   0.894  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon CFE223 *C                  102.0     24.7     1.60    2523    90.8    50253   11053   0.916  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Big Game                   102.0     24.1     1.56    2522    92.5    50259   10895   0.917  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator *C             95.9     22.7     1.47    2522    94.3    55000   10285   0.896  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 2200                       98.3     22.1     1.43    2519    92.2    55000   10285   0.892  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon Benchmark                   97.7     21.3     1.38    2513    96.8    55000    9964   0.895  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Shooters World Tactical Rifle       92.6     21.9     1.42    2512    95.6    55000    9974   0.895  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Shooters World Tactical Rifle       92.6     21.9     1.42    2512    95.6    55000    9974   0.895  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4198                            93.6     18.6     1.21    2511   100.0    55000    9012   0.885  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N540 *C                 102.0     22.9     1.48    2507    97.6    51104   10406   0.923  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 *C              102.0     22.6     1.47    2505    92.3    50036   10783   0.931  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 1680                       81.6     18.9     1.22    2500    99.6    55000    9360   0.893  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N130 *C                  97.1     20.1     1.30    2498   100.0    55000    9183   0.901  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-7                   88.5     19.0     1.23    2496   100.0    55000    9095   0.905  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma 203B *C                      102.0     22.6     1.47    2493    92.8    49043   10742   0.939  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 296                      69.7     16.6     1.08    2493   100.0    55000    8810   0.910  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 5744                       77.8     16.5     1.07    2492   100.0    55000    9031   0.888  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Shooters World Buffalo Rifle        79.6     16.5     1.07    2492   100.0    55000    9031   0.888  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H4198                       90.2     18.8     1.22    2487    99.0    55000    9223   0.888  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon CFE BLK *C                  88.9     20.9     1.36    2482    96.2    55000    9629   0.899  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N133 *C                 102.0     20.7     1.34    2481    99.7    53037    9270   0.908  ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Blackout             74.8     17.3     1.12    2470   100.0    55000    8640   0.887  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N120 *C                  91.5     18.5     1.20    2465   100.0    55000    8310   0.904  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H4227                       84.6     17.2     1.11    2464   100.0    55000    8363   0.892  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Shooters World Precision           102.0     22.0     1.43    2460    94.6    48622   10284   0.952  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N125 *C                  86.3     17.8     1.15    2460   100.0    55000    8292   0.904  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4227                            84.1     17.1     1.11    2454   100.0    55000    8316   0.891  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4320                           102.0     22.2     1.44    2449    91.8    47803   10195   0.937  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380                       102.0     23.1     1.50    2445    89.3    47730   10432   0.955  ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 11                  102.0     23.4     1.51    2436    90.7    45117   10573   0.964
Accurate 4064                      102.0     22.1     1.43    2435    96.8    44718   10524   1.009
Norma 203 old                      102.0     22.9     1.48    2434    92.8    45058   10571   0.983
Accurate No.11 FS                   75.1     17.2     1.11    2433   100.0    55000    8037   0.901  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H110                        71.1     16.9     1.10    2432   100.0    55000    8122   0.915  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon VARGET *T                  102.0     21.9     1.42    2422    91.1    47530    9989   0.947  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Lil'Gun                     69.7     16.1     1.04    2401   100.0    55000    7700   0.923  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4064                           102.0     21.4     1.38    2398    91.1    46290    9823   0.964
__________________
Randall Rausch

AR work: www.ar15barrels.com
Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com
Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com
Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns.
Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-22-2022, 2:43 PM
blockfort's Avatar
blockfort blockfort is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,184
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
H4895 is also the winner with a 77SMK
I'm not quite sure what you're looking at to call the 77 and 69 a winner. which column is the important one?

also, hi, it's been a while!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-22-2022, 6:36 PM
ar15barrels's Avatar
ar15barrels ar15barrels is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Van Nuys
Posts: 53,920
iTrader: 113 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blockfort View Post
I'm not quite sure what you're looking at to call the 77 and 69 a winner.
which column is the important one?
Velocity, case fill percentage and combustion percentage for a given pressure.
Look how high up H4895 is compared to IMR4064 in both of the powder chooser datasets.
__________________
Randall Rausch

AR work: www.ar15barrels.com
Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com
Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com
Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns.
Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-22-2022, 7:03 PM
tawadc95 tawadc95 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 517
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

How about Tac, meters a lot better.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-23-2022, 12:41 AM
zouaveherb zouaveherb is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 107
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blockfort View Post
going to start reloading for my new AR. 16" heavy barrel, 1:8 twist. I have H4895 and IMR 4064. will test at 100y and likely not shoot past 300y.

Main purpose for now is just to find the limits of accuracy for my rifle.

should I just go for SIE HPBT 77 grain or is there a good reason to try for something lighter (or heavier)?

At 100 yards, a flat base bullet is going to be more accurate than a similar bullet that has a boat tail. Itís because a flat base leaves the barrel more consistently. Look at the bullets used by 100 yard benchrest winners. Once you get to 200-350 yards, things then start to change as the better long range flight characteristics of boat tails take over. Anything heavier than 69 grains is kinda wasted at ranges of 200 yards or less. I would consider 77 grain bullets if I donít want to single load 80 grain bullets at 600 yards. Also keep in mind that a faster twist is not necessarily for a heavier bullet. It is for a longer bullet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-23-2022, 1:15 AM
kcheung2's Avatar
kcheung2 kcheung2 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,220
iTrader: 39 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zouaveherb View Post
At 100 yards, a flat base bullet is going to be more accurate than a similar bullet that has a boat tail. Itís because a flat base leaves the barrel more consistently. Look at the bullets used by 100 yard benchrest winners. Once you get to 200-350 yards, things then start to change as the better long range flight characteristics of boat tails take over. Anything heavier than 69 grains is kinda wasted at ranges of 200 yards or less. I would consider 77 grain bullets if I donít want to single load 80 grain bullets at 600 yards. Also keep in mind that a faster twist is not necessarily for a heavier bullet. It is for a longer bullet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes! This guy gets it

On an unrelated note, I wonder about the logistics of even using IMR4064 in a .223 case. As in the physical process of getting those long sticks into the case through that narrow mouth. I like 4064 and use it for .308, but even with that wider case mouth it has a hard time dropping through without getting congested. I often have to flick it with my fingers to make sure everything's settled in.

And the crunch!
__________________
---------------------
"There is no "best." If there was, everyone here would own that one, and no other." - DSB
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-23-2022, 3:03 AM
blockfort's Avatar
blockfort blockfort is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,184
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tawadc95 View Post
How about Tac, meters a lot better.
I'm going to stick with the powders I already own and use for other rounds.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-23-2022, 3:09 AM
blockfort's Avatar
blockfort blockfort is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,184
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zouaveherb View Post
At 100 yards, a flat base bullet is going to be more accurate than a similar bullet that has a boat tail. Itís because a flat base leaves the barrel more consistently. Look at the bullets used by 100 yard benchrest winners. Once you get to 200-350 yards, things then start to change as the better long range flight characteristics of boat tails take over. Anything heavier than 69 grains is kinda wasted at ranges of 200 yards or less. I would consider 77 grain bullets if I donít want to single load 80 grain bullets at 600 yards. Also keep in mind that a faster twist is not necessarily for a heavier bullet. It is for a longer bullet.
Sierra and Hornady couldn't tell me which profile would work best in my gun, they said I'll just have to see what it likes. But I'll likely be trying 69 and 77 boat tails first. Sierra also said hunters tend to like 77 tipped bullets, and that may be one of my future uses.

and yes, stability is technically related to length, but heavier bullets are longer, and weights are easier to discuss.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-23-2022, 3:13 AM
blockfort's Avatar
blockfort blockfort is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,184
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcheung2 View Post
Yes! This guy gets it

On an unrelated note, I wonder about the logistics of even using IMR4064 in a .223 case. As in the physical process of getting those long sticks into the case through that narrow mouth. I like 4064 and use it for .308, but even with that wider case mouth it has a hard time dropping through without getting congested. I often have to flick it with my fingers to make sure everything's settled in.

And the crunch!
4064 shoots like a dream in my 308. 168 SMK over 41.5 gr 4064 gives me 5 shot clovers at 100y.

my jug of 4895 will be for the 223 it seems...
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-23-2022, 3:17 AM
blockfort's Avatar
blockfort blockfort is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,184
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Velocity, case fill percentage and combustion percentage for a given pressure.
Look how high up H4895 is compared to IMR4064 in both of the powder chooser datasets.
interesting. I can see that the data shows it's an efficient powder. I just have to find the charge that my rifle likes.

where do you get those charts?

Last edited by blockfort; 06-23-2022 at 5:05 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-23-2022, 8:44 AM
ar15barrels's Avatar
ar15barrels ar15barrels is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Van Nuys
Posts: 53,920
iTrader: 113 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tawadc95 View Post
How about Tac, meters a lot better.
He does not have it.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-23-2022, 8:55 AM
ar15barrels's Avatar
ar15barrels ar15barrels is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Van Nuys
Posts: 53,920
iTrader: 113 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blockfort View Post
where do you get those charts?
I generated them in Quickload.
You choose a cartridge, a bullet and a barrel length and then run what I call a "powder chooser query" where you specify a burn rate range, a max pressure and a max case fill percentage and then the software tests your whole powder library in those parameters and returns the results that I posted above.
The powders that can not fall within the parameters are rejected.

I only copied the top part of the results and cropped out everything below IMR4064 because you were asking about H4895 and IMR4064.
A complete set of results will not fit into a single post due to the 15000 character limit.

Here is the rest of the results for the 77gr SMK starting at IMR4064 and continuing down to the bottom:

Code:
IMR 4064                           102.0     21.4     1.38    2398    91.1    46290    9823   0.964
Alliant Reloder-17 *T              102.0     23.7     1.54    2387    88.5    41384   10858   0.998
IMR 4007 SSC                       102.0     22.9     1.49    2371    84.2    46713    9735   0.969
Hodgdon H414                       102.0     23.9     1.55    2370    82.7    42640   10288   0.990
Winchester 760                     102.0     23.9     1.55    2370    82.7    42640   10288   0.990
Accurate 4100                       68.6     15.7     1.02    2367   100.0    55000    7276   0.910  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N140 *C                 102.0     21.7     1.41    2366    93.7    44510    9541   0.981
Alliant 2400                        67.1     14.1     0.92    2366   100.0    55000    7265   0.907  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N110 *C                  80.0     15.0     0.97    2358   100.0    55000    7195   0.917  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4166 Enduron *C*T              102.0     21.7     1.40    2358    85.6    47050    9419   0.963  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Enforcer                    65.8     14.9     0.97    2346   100.0    55000    7110   0.917  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4451 Enduron *C*T              102.0     22.3     1.45    2343    84.3    44883    9525   0.976
Vihtavuori N135 *C                 102.0     20.5     1.33    2342    97.6    40862    9469   1.024
Accurate 2700                      102.0     23.6     1.53    2337    84.0    47297    9172   0.968  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 *C                 102.0     23.1     1.50    2317    85.4    38862   10163   1.038
Accurate No.9                       60.4     14.2     0.92    2311   100.0    55000    6776   0.910  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon LVR                        102.0     22.6     1.47    2307    84.4    39360    9888   1.028
Accurate TCM                        60.9     13.9     0.90    2295   100.0    55000    6634   0.911  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan BA6Ĺ                    88.8     16.2     1.05    2294   100.0    55000    6603   0.920  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant BLUE DOT                    72.4     13.1     0.85    2284   100.0    55000    6613   0.913  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester 6,5 StaBall *T*C        102.0     24.3     1.58    2264    88.2    39648    9334   1.027
Shooters World Long Rifle          102.0     22.1     1.43    2263    84.5    39683    9339   1.048
Norma R123                          60.9     13.5     0.87    2252   100.0    55000    6443   0.952  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-16 *C *T           102.0     22.0     1.43    2249    82.8    36444    9744   1.060
Norma URP *C                       102.0     22.4     1.45    2233    83.2    35443    9632   1.078
Vihtavuori N150 *C                 102.0     21.3     1.38    2231    90.5    36580    9138   1.074
Shooters World SW4350              102.0     22.4     1.45    2222    81.0    37256    9243   1.078
Alliant POWER PISTOL                61.2     10.8     0.70    2219   100.0    55000    6208   0.914  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma 204 *C                       102.0     23.4     1.51    2216    75.9    37790    9111   1.051
Ramshot Hunter                     102.0     23.4     1.51    2214    79.4    35635    9481   1.077
IMR 4350                           102.0     22.5     1.46    2209    79.3    37519    8913   1.058
Vihtavuori 3N38                     68.7     12.4     0.81    2207   100.0    55000    5901   0.922  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 4350                      102.0     22.6     1.47    2205    82.4    33235    9687   1.113
Vihtavuori N105 *C                  69.2     12.0     0.78    2187   100.0    55000    5763   0.938  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H4350 *T                   102.0     22.1     1.43    2162    77.8    35440    8652   1.084
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V                102.0     21.9     1.42    2150    84.1    32755    8956   1.111
Alliant Reloder-19 *C              102.0     22.6     1.47    2089    71.8    31815    8517   1.130
IMR 4831                           102.0     21.7     1.40    2087    79.7    29664    8791   1.161
Vihtavuori 3N37                     63.9     10.9     0.71    2084   100.0    55000    5179   0.940  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant HERCO                       73.8     10.3     0.66    2077   100.0    55000    5223   0.952  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan BA7Ĺ                    71.5     11.6     0.75    2076   100.0    55000    5105   0.947  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N350                     66.4     10.7     0.69    2072   100.0    55000    5072   0.940  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant BULLSEYE                    60.8      8.9     0.58    2062   100.0    55000    5182   0.939  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester Supreme 780             102.0     23.8     1.55    2058    71.1    32237    8128   1.126
Alliant UNIQUE                      67.1      9.6     0.62    2050   100.0    55000    5053   0.952  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4955 Enduron *C*T              102.0     22.0     1.43    2026    69.6    31105    7750   1.146
Hodgdon H4831 SC *T                102.0     22.9     1.48    2017    66.8    30792    7794   1.148
Accurate No.2                       62.8      9.2     0.60    2011   100.0    55000    4680   0.960  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma MRP *C                       102.0     23.6     1.53    2010    67.5    28151    8525   1.194
Vihtavuori N340                     66.2      9.7     0.63    2004   100.0    55000    4671   0.952  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 7828 SSC                       102.0     23.2     1.51    1998    63.3    29683    7874   1.171
Alliant Reloder-26 *C              102.0     24.3     1.58    1996    68.2    27421    8744   1.207
SNPE Vectan A0                      71.2     10.1     0.66    1995   100.0    55000    4543   0.961  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon Universal                   65.1      9.3     0.60    1982   100.0    55000    4657   0.966  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Fiocchi F-Rex yellow                61.1      9.4     0.61    1980   100.0    55000    4526   0.959  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N560 *C                 102.0     23.1     1.50    1974    62.6    27723    7989   1.204
SNPE Vectan BA9Ĺ                    67.4      9.7     0.63    1973   100.0    55000    4556   0.960  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
NitroKemia REX 3/Green/36           81.4      9.9     0.64    1971   100.0    55000    4461   0.961  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-22 *C              102.0     22.9     1.48    1970    65.9    27142    8050   1.215
SNPE Vectan BA 9                    66.9     10.3     0.67    1967   100.0    55000    4496   0.966  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
NitroKemia REX 2/Yellow/32          81.5      9.5     0.62    1967   100.0    55000    4442   0.958  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan A1                      61.7      9.5     0.61    1964   100.0    55000    4472   0.959  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
NitroKemia REX 1/Red/28             82.6      9.8     0.63    1964   100.0    55000    4489   0.952  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate Nitro 100                  72.4      8.4     0.54    1958   100.0    55000    4570   0.972  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Shooters World Sparta 100           72.4      8.4     0.54    1958   100.0    55000    4570   0.972  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N330                     63.8      9.2     0.60    1955   100.0    55000    4429   0.965  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate Solo 1250                  70.3      9.3     0.60    1955   100.0    55000    4403   0.959  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan AS                      64.9      9.2     0.60    1948   100.0    55000    4434   0.960  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-23 *C *T           102.0     22.1     1.43    1947    73.6    25389    8152   1.234
Alliant GREEN DOT                   72.2      8.9     0.58    1945   100.0    55000    4462   0.976  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Fiocchi F-Rex red                   60.1      9.0     0.59    1942   100.0    55000    4355   0.963  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N160 *C                 102.0     21.7     1.41    1931    67.1    27613    7185   1.203
Accurate Solo 1000                  72.7      8.9     0.58    1930   100.0    55000    4361   0.975  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant RED DOT                     76.5      8.4     0.55    1928   100.0    55000    4396   0.966  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H4831 *T                   102.0     22.0     1.42    1924    63.9    27278    7236   1.205
Accurate MAGPRO                    102.0     24.0     1.56    1918    58.7    26361    7617   1.232
Vihtavuori N320                     66.6      8.7     0.56    1913   100.0    55000    4202   0.970  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester WXR                     102.0     22.4     1.45    1908    63.7    25135    7624   1.257
Vihtavuori N165 *C                 102.0     22.4     1.45    1897    67.2    25840    7224   1.233
Accurate 3100                      102.0     22.6     1.47    1897    70.0    23920    7731   1.282
Norma R1                            79.7      8.9     0.58    1884   100.0    55000    4133   0.976  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot Magnum                     102.0     24.6     1.60    1873    60.9    26401    7159   1.236
Hodgdon Clays                       78.4      8.3     0.54    1872   100.0    55000    4068   0.968  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 7828                           102.0     22.0     1.42    1870    58.9    25058    6989   1.259
Vihtavuori N310                     62.2      8.0     0.52    1863   100.0    55000    3959   0.975  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 7977 Enduron *C*T              102.0     22.4     1.45    1838    56.6    27122    6215   1.223
Alliant Reloder-25 *C              102.0     22.5     1.46    1828    61.0    23053    6978   1.307
Vihtavuori N32C Tin Star            94.7     10.5     0.68    1825   100.0    55000    3704   0.998  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan SP 12                  102.0     24.1     1.56    1811    54.7    24407    6666   1.278
Vihtavuori N565 *C                 102.0     23.2     1.51    1791    56.9    21800    6996   1.333
Norma MRP 2 *C                     102.0     22.6     1.47    1723    53.1    20234    6358   1.377
Hodgdon H1000 *T                   102.0     22.4     1.45    1716    51.7    21762    5728   1.346
Vihtavuori N570 *C                 102.0     23.8     1.55    1658    42.9    19835    5638   1.394
Shooters World BMG                 102.0     24.3     1.58    1644    45.4    20948    5271   1.375
Hodgdon Retumbo                    102.0     22.7     1.47    1632    48.3    18853    5428   1.429
Vihtavuori N170 *C                 102.0     22.4     1.45    1629    49.1    18750    5558   1.430
Vihtavuori 24N41 *C                102.0     24.1     1.56    1610    40.5    20053    4924   1.400
Alliant Reloder-33 *C              102.0     24.5     1.59    1587    40.4    18479    5149   1.442
Accurate LRT                       102.0     24.0     1.56    1586    38.0    19187    4801   1.425
IMR TrailBoss                      102.0      7.6     0.49    1540   100.0    33027    2814   1.242
IMR 8133 Enduron *C*T              102.0     22.1     1.43    1540    43.6    16310    4983   1.512
Norma 217 *C                       102.0     22.3     1.44    1523    43.2    15867    4919   1.528
Hodgdon H870                       102.0     23.4     1.51    1513    39.4    16339    4706   1.517
Hodgdon 50BMG                      102.0     23.0     1.49    1495    35.3    16626    4360   1.509
Hodgdon US 869                     102.0     24.1     1.56    1474    36.1    16333    4250   1.528
SNPE Vectan SP 13                  102.0     23.1     1.50    1431    37.6    14783    4143   1.587
Alliant Reloder-50 *C              102.0     24.5     1.59    1409    33.4    14215    4207   1.607
Accurate 8700                      102.0     23.6     1.53    1395    34.5    14826    3764   1.595
Vihtavuori 20N29 *C                102.0     24.3     1.58    1354    31.8    13844    3641   1.640
When you start seeing all the powders capped out at 102% case fill, those powders are too slow.
__________________
Randall Rausch

AR work: www.ar15barrels.com
Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com
Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com
Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns.
Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-23-2022, 10:43 AM
Scota4570 Scota4570 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,480
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

I use 68 gr hornady, 24.5 gr 4895 pull down, Wolf Brass, Wolf primer. My match rifle has a Kreiger 1:8 barrel. Those are bottom feeder components, yet is holds the 10-ring and then some in the 300M slow fire prone. Off the bench they shoot around 3/4". I do use Adam McDonalds auto trickler and weigh the powder to +/-0.02 grains.

If I had no Varget I'd try the 4894 first. There is no need for heavy bullets at 300.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-23-2022, 11:34 AM
blockfort's Avatar
blockfort blockfort is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,184
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

wow, had no idea it even existed. thanks for the posts.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-23-2022, 11:35 AM
blockfort's Avatar
blockfort blockfort is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,184
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

"heavy" meaning heavier than the 68?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-23-2022, 4:19 PM
VonRyan209 VonRyan209 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Manteca, CA
Posts: 50
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

I like using Hornady 75 grain BTHP bullets. They are usually under $0.24 a pop, sometimes even cheaper. SMK's are sort of what most folks go for when replicating MK262 Mod 1 ammo. Barnes has a 75 or 77 grain as well. Same with Nosler.

All comes down to price really (for me). Buy 100 of each you like, see how they work, and then determine which is the best for your rifle. For reference I'm using a SIG 516 Patrol 1:7 twist 16" rifle. Nosler's didn't work that well for me, and I haven't tried Sierra or Barnes because Hornady's 75 grain is cheaper and gets me what I want.

Otherwise the "Match" style 52-69 grain projectiles would do well for under 300 yards. The 53 grain Sierra isn't bad. Same as the 69's.

RMR reloading has 69 grain projectiles for $0.15 or so each. https://www.rmrbullets.com/shop/bull...r-bullets-new/

I personally haven't used them, but being nearly 1/2 the price of Sierra's offering it'll do you just fine for under 300 yard shooting based on reviews.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-23-2022, 4:27 PM
blockfort's Avatar
blockfort blockfort is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,184
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

they look like they might be good, but min qty is 500, and that may be a bit much just to try them out. maybe i'll call and see if they can ship a micro batch.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-23-2022, 5:02 PM
VonRyan209 VonRyan209 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Manteca, CA
Posts: 50
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blockfort View Post
they look like they might be good, but min qty is 500, and that may be a bit much just to try them out. maybe i'll call and see if they can ship a micro batch.
I did forget about the minimum requirement of 500. If it makes you feel any better they do answer your question.

Quote:
t might be a good idea to explain our 100% satisfaction guarantee here.

Our guarantee means you can order 500 or 1000 bullets to get the bulk discount savings and you donít have to worry about how they shoot for you. Order the 1000 pack and try 50 or so. If they donít shoot well just let us know and we will send you a prepaid return label. Once we get the remainder of the bullets back we issue a FULL refund.

We know that some customers still prefer to order smaller quantities, so we make them available. However, shipping 100 takes the same time to package and the same amount of money to ship as larger quantities, so we actually make almost nothing for the same amount of work put into it. We would rather lose a little money on shipping stuff back and forth than to have to charge dumb amounts of money so that someone can test something out.
Under smaller quantities

Reading that I may have to buy some for myself in the future based on their guarantee.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 8:20 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2021, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.



Seams2SewBySusy

Tactical Pants Tactical Boots Military Boots 5.11 Tactical