Cal Regs

[kouye]

Question: I have a Type 03 FLL and COE, I want to sell a C&R rifle to a resident of another state. The transfer, however, will be in CA at my Type 03 FFL address. The buyer does not have a Type 03 FFL. Can this be done cash and carry, as long as he is allowed to purchase firearms and it does not conflict with laws in his state?

Pretty sure this was true pre-2014, but am unsure now.

[six seven tango]

Originally Posted by kouye

Question: I have a Type 03 FLL and COE, I want to sell a C&R rifle to a resident of another state. The transfer, however, will be in CA at my Type 03 FFL address. The buyer does not have a Type 03 FFL. Can this be done cash and carry, as long as he is allowed to purchase firearms and it does not conflict with laws in his state?

Pretty sure this was true pre-2014, but am unsure now.

Short answer...No cash and carry.

Longer answer...

As of Jan '14, long guns must be registered at time of transfer. That means the self reg for us 03's.

Since the transaction will take place in CA, you and the buyer must follow CA law. Since your buyer does not have an FFL, the long gun must be PPT'd by an 01. But, CA requires both the seller and the buyer to be CA residents, so you're pretty much SOL.

I've never sold to a non-FFL from out of state, but you might be able to legally handle it F2F in his home state. Hopefully, someone with a little more experience with that will chime in.

[kouye]

I found this on the ATF C&R FAQ page, but maybe it's outdated?:

"Can a licensed collector sell a curio or relic shotgun or rifle to a nonlicensed resident of another State?

Yes. A licensed collector is specifically authorized to sell a curio or relic shotgun or rifle to a non-licensed resident of another State so long as 1) The purchaser meets with the licensee in person at the licensee’s premises to accomplish the transfer, sale, and delivery of the rifle or shotgun; and 2) The sale, delivery, and receipt of the rifle or shotgun fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States.

[27 CFR 478.96 (c)(1)]"

https://www.atf.gov/faq-page/306#t306n12296

Is this no longer true?

[six seven tango]

Originally Posted by kouye

I found this on the ATF C&R FAQ page, but maybe it's outdated?:

"Can a licensed collector sell a curio or relic shotgun or rifle to a nonlicensed resident of another State?

Yes. A licensed collector is specifically authorized to sell a curio or relic shotgun or rifle to a non-licensed resident of another State so long as 1) The purchaser meets with the licensee in person at the licensee’s premises to accomplish the transfer, sale, and delivery of the rifle or shotgun; and 2) The sale, delivery, and receipt of the rifle or shotgun fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States.

[27 CFR 478.96 (c)(1)]"

https://www.atf.gov/faq-page/306#t306n12296

Is this no longer true?

It's still true, but it's only the federal side of the issue. Notice #2 above mentions complying with the legal conditions of sale in both States. That's your catch 22. Because CA requires registration of all long guns, and as an 03 you don't have access to the DROS system, your buyer has to PPT at an 01, and wait 10 days. But, your buyer can't satisfy CA's residency requirement, so you can't PPT it to him. It's looking like your only option will be to ship it to an FFL in his state.

[kouye]

I see...what about shipping it directly to him in his state (as long as it's legal in their state). Any CA rules against that?

[six seven tango]

Originally Posted by kouye

I see...what about shipping it directly to him in his state (as long as it's legal in their state). Any CA rules against that?

Not allowed federally. An interstate transfer has to be done FFL to FFL.

[kouye]

That just blows!....

[six seven tango]

Ya gotta love CA surf and ski and all that crap...

Does the buyer not have an FFL close to him that you could ship to? The shipping wouldn't be any different on your end. Enter it into your book as an FFL to FFL transfer.

[kouye]

Haven't explored that yet. Now there is less of advantage to buying from me vs. buying from an LGS so...

[annoyed_in_ca]

Hello,

I wanted to see if anyone else has run across the same issue I just had. I have my C&R and my COE. I purchased an Enfield from an Ohio dealer. I told the dealer he could ship directly to me. However, he wanted to call DOJ and verify. DOJ told him that all shipments must go thru an FFL dealer. When I called DOJ I asked why couldn't the rifle be shipped to me and then I self report it, the woman indicated it violated PC 28160.

[Hinnerk]

annoyed,

First off, I am not a licensed C&R collector nor have I applied for a COE (but this is of interest to me in case that should change). I have looked through the Penal Code (not exhaustively) but it appears that the section that the woman from DOJ cited has to do with the format of the electronic report by the dealer. That section pertains to Section 26500 which begins:

26500. (a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless
the person has been issued a license pursuant to Article 1
(commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with
Section 26800) of Chapter 2.
(b) Any person violating this article is guilty of a misdemeanor.

It seems to me that the sale and transfer is being done by a dealer who is out of the jurisdiction of California. This section does not specifically address the receipt of a firearm, which is really the issue here, no?

There is an exception for C&Rs but that addresses only the sale of a C&R by a licensed collector and restricts it to a dealer:

26585. Section 26500 does not apply to the delivery of an unloaded
firearm that is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of
Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, if the delivery
satisfies all of the following conditions:
(a) It is made by a person licensed as a collector pursuant to
Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United
States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(b) It is made by a person with a current certificate of
eligibility issued pursuant to Section 26710.
(c) It is made to a dealer.

I am not surprised that the DOJ would take the perspective that California laws apply to the entire universe, but it doesn't sound as if they are citing any part of the code that would preclude this sale.

[annoyed_in_ca]

Hinnerk,

Thanks for the input. I read over the section she cited too and that seemed to not fit her explanation either. I called back and I was told point blank that a C&R with a COE cannot have any c&r items mailed directly to them from someone out of state. Period. All out of state c&r mailed transactions must go thru a dealer. This is incorrect right?

[81turbota]

C&R long guns that are CA compliant can be shipped to you directly with C&R+COE. All handguns must go through a dealer.

[sourdiesel]

https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#7

Section 14

Can I sell a gun directly to another person (i.e. non-dealer)?
Generally, no. This type of transaction is referred to as a “private party transfer” and must be conducted through a fully licensed California firearms dealer. Failure to do so is a violation of California law. The purchaser (and seller if the purchaser is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements.

Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request but may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting the transfer. For example:

For a private party transfer involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00 for the first handgun and $31.00 for each additional handgun involved in the same transaction.

For private party transfers involving one or more long guns, or a private party transfer involving one handgun, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00. The dealer may charge an additional dealer-service fee of up to $10.00 for each additional firearm.

"Antique firearms," as defined in section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement. For additional exceptions, refer to Penal Code sections 27850 through 27966.

(Pen. Code, § 27545.)




Whats the deal, has the State of California Department of Justice Office of Attorney General website just not been updated??

[spy-d]

This is a quick question.
It is June, 2015. A fellow has a 1946 .303 British Mk 4 to sell.
I have not commuted to buy it... Yet.
Can we do a PPT or should I go through a FFL dealer?

Thank you

[six seven tango]

Originally Posted by spy-d

This is a quick question.
It is June, 2015. A fellow has a 1946 .303 British Mk 4 to sell.
I have not commuted to buy it... Yet.
Can we do a PPT or should I go through a FFL dealer?

Thank you

If the buyer has an FFL 03 and a COE, then it can be face to face, and the buyer files the appropriate form and $19 fee with the state.

If the buyer does not have both an FFL 03 and COE then the sale must be completed as a PPT thru your local dealer.

[spy-d]

Thanks. It's off to the gun shop I go.

[spy-d]

Ok, just to be clear, as of ????? ALL FIREARMS regardless of age has to go through a dealer, unless you have a collectors permit issued by the Calif DOJ.
Is that correct?

[six seven tango]

Originally Posted by spy-d

Ok, just to be clear, as of ????? ALL FIREARMS regardless of age has to go through a dealer, unless you have a collectors permit issued by the Calif DOJ.
Is that correct?

As of 1-1-14, all firearms must go thru a dealer.

Exceptions are, a C&R long gun purchased by a holder of both an FFL 03 and a COE (handguns still have to go thru a dealer), or if the firearm is an antique (1898 or prior).

The "collectors permit" you are referring to is not issued by CA. It is a Federal Firearms License, issued by the BATFE. The only thing issued by CA is the Certificate of Eligibility (COE). All that is, is a fancy name for a background check with a live scan. It is only required in CA. The buyer must have both to purchase C&R long guns in CA without going thru a dealer.

[spy-d]

Fantastic.

[spy-d]

I know this will get me into trouble.

Hey, if all of us gun guys are on the DOJ list of registered gun holders,
And China's hackers get all this intel, two things can happen.
1> china may list this intel on iBay, or
2> use this intel to attack the west coast in an invasion.
After all, they will also know everyone on the doj's gun register.

Sounds far fetch? Well, look what China did this year.

I'm just saying.

[turtlini]

New FFL 03/COE holder here. I just bought a C&R Savage 99 of Gunbroker and there was some computer mix-up with my COE number so the seller called the CA DOJ to verify. They told him the rifle had to ship through an FFL 01. I called them up and they told me the same thing. I referred them to CA P.C. 27966 and was put on hold for a while. The guy came back and said this was a topic of debate and they he'd have to call me back in a few days with clarification. This is absurd! Looking at the code itself there is no ambiguity. What can we do about this bs?
Relevant code section

[supergimp]

Ok, I know this is an old thread and I really hope I'm not flogging a dead horse here, but I am confused about a scenario I haven't found written up here.

I am the holder of both a Type 03 FFL and a California COE. I have done plenty of transfers from out-of-state FFLs and am familiar with BOF 961 (have done plenty of those, I dig the new online system) and BOF 4100A.

So here is the scenario...an IN STATE (another part of CA) seller has a C&R eligible longarm that I would like to purchase. I realize I can do a face-to-face transfer, but that is not possible in this case. Can the seller (who DOES NOT possess an FFL of any type) ship the longarm directly to me and I would file a BOF 4100a?

I am unclear of how IN STATE transfers that involve shipping are handled. I believe that you must ship from an FFL. Is that correct?

Thanks in advance.

[six seven tango]

Originally Posted by supergimp

Ok, I know this is an old thread and I really hope I'm not flogging a dead horse here, but I am confused about a scenario I haven't found written up here.

I am the holder of both a Type 03 FFL and a California COE. I have done plenty of transfers from out-of-state FFLs and am familiar with BOF 961 (have done plenty of those, I dig the new online system) and BOF 4100A.

So here is the scenario...an IN STATE (another part of CA) seller has a C&R eligible longarm that I would like to purchase. I realize I can do a face-to-face transfer, but that is not possible in this case. Can the seller (who DOES NOT possess an FFL of any type) ship the longarm directly to me and I would file a BOF 4100a?

I am unclear of how IN STATE transfers that involve shipping are handled. I believe that you must ship from an FFL. Is that correct?

Thanks in advance.

Long gun can be shipped directly to you. You would file form BOF 961 for in state acquisition.

[SquidBilly]

I have a fairly simple question that I couldn't really find definitively answered in this thread. Having to do with the 50 year rule on long guns.

Say I go to a Nevada gun show, I can buy any 50 year old or older long gun (not nfa of course) and bring it back to California. As long as it's registered within 5 days?

Or does the long gun specifically have to be on the ATF list?

Same question for online purchases?

Basically, where and when do the 50 year rules apply? Where and when do the ATF's list apply?

[TRICKSTER]

Originally Posted by SquidBilly

I have a fairly simple question that I couldn't really find definitively answered in this thread. Having to do with the 50 year rule on long guns.

Say I go to a Nevada gun show, I can buy any 50 year old or older long gun (not nfa of course) and bring it back to California. As long as it's registered within 5 days?

Or does the long gun specifically have to be on the ATF list?

Same question for online purchases?

Basically, where and when do the 50 year rules apply? Where and when do the ATF's list apply?

If it's 50 years old or older, you are good to go, it is considered a C&R.
If it is on the ATF C&R list, you are good to go, it is considered a C&R.
This applies no matter how or where you acquire the firearm

If you are making the purchase in person with a 03FFL, out of state, (like at a Nevada Gun Show) this applies to both C&R long guns and handguns. Buy it and register it with CA DOJ within 5 days of bringing it into Ca.

In state purchases of C&R long guns, this includes online purchases shipped to you, require both a 03FFL and COE. Register with CA DOJ within 30 days of receiving the firearm. In state purchases of C&R handguns, this also includes online purchases, must go through a FFL Dealer but you are exempt from the 10 day wait if you have a 03FFL and COE.

[SquidBilly]

Perfect thank you!

[Army GI]

Tried to skim the thread, but probably missed where my question was answered. I apologize if it is redundant, but I haven't bought any new C&Rs in a couple of years and am concerned if the laws have changed.

My question is this:

I am a COE and 03FFL holder. I am currently bidding on a C&R rifle from out of state. Does the seller have to ship to an 01FFL or can he ship directly to me?

[Texas_bung]

I am not sure if this is the right forum to ask but my question is related to c&r ppt so here it goes.
I am looking to sell a mosin I bought pre2014, when you could purchase said rifle without going through ffl and seller simply records the sale in his/her binder. How do I prove that the rifle is legally mine and ok sell?.

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[jc2aloha]

Does anyone if you can use your C&R license to buy ammo over the counter from Big 5, Bass Pro, Dick's, or any other shops that sell ammo in California?

[Kilo3049]

Originally Posted by jc2aloha

Does anyone if you can use your C&R license to buy ammo over the counter from Big 5, Bass Pro, Dick's, or any other shops that sell ammo in California?

Currently, you could walk into any store that sells ammo here and purchase it. You don't need a C&R license or any type of license to buy ammo.

[DrewN]

So, I PPT'd a NON C&R handgun within the last month but am thinking about grabbing a cool C&R handgun here on the forums. I know C&R is exempt from 1 in 30 usually, but will my DROS get kicked because of the prior purchase?

[locomike]

arent both of those bof forms exactly the same?

[locomike]

if im a C&R and COE holder who buys a C&R long gun in state, do i need any info on seller? I dont see that it is asked for on the BOF961 form

[TRICKSTER]

Originally Posted by locomike

if im a C&R and COE holder who buys a C&R long gun in state, do i need any info on seller? I dont see that it is asked for on the BOF961 form

You will need the sellers info to log into your Bound Book.

[locomike]

is that the same thing as "personal firearms record"? that little folded page that the atf sent me with my papers.

[TRICKSTER]

Originally Posted by locomike

is that the same thing as "personal firearms record"? that little folded page that the atf sent me with my papers.

See section f in this link.
(f. Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors.)
https://atf-eregs.18f.gov/478-125/E8-23178#478-125-f

[locomike]

thanks

[Blade Gunner]

Originally Posted by wtrtroughreg

Now that I have my C&R, do I have to get any more licenses from Ca before I can buy through the on-line auctions or places like SAMCO, Aim Surplus, Classic Arms, and such?

Get a COE and you can buy ammunition online delivered to your door.


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[General Kronstadt]

Originally Posted by Blade Gunner

Get a COE and you can buy ammunition online delivered to your door.


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....

This is true most places, but I have a O3 and COE and live in Contra Costa county, and because of some weird law about unincorporated areas not being allowed to recieve ammo, many online ammo retailers will not sell to me. It's bunk.

I have an FFL down the highway that charges $0 for ammo being shipped, so it's fine, but also, it's not....

Any one else encountered this?