Cal Regs

[bibon]

So C&R allows you to buy long relics from private party out of state.
How it can be proven though that the rifle was not purchased from private party in California if there's no paper trail requirement for the transaction?
Does C&R make sense at all in that case?

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by bibon

So C&R allows you to buy long relics from private party out of state.
How it can be proven though that the rifle was not purchased from private party in California if there's no paper trail requirement for the transaction?
Does C&R make sense at all in that case?

C&R FFLs are required to keep a written record of all of their C&R firearm transactions.

Currently, you don't even need a C&R FFL to transfer 50+ year old C&R long guns between two California residents. The law changes next year though.

[Bryon865]

Thanks for sharing.

[TheeMikeB]

I'm looking into getting my C&R, I filled out the paperwork but reading some posts on this site I keep seeing stuff stating changes for 2014. Specifically 'cash and carry'. I've searched but keep getting mixed answers.

Is there an upcoming change to the C&R for 2014 that will impact the license and the way purchases are handled? Specifically cash and carry?f

My understanding of a C&R is that as a holder I can buy any C&R listed rifle and take possession immediately as long as I have a C&R and the transfer is recorded appropriately.

[aal780555]

Can someone clarify the 2014 laws for me a little bit?

I have a C&R license right now, and I can purchase any long gun on the Internet and have it directly mailed to me, I just need to file it in my bound book this year.

I can also buy any C&R guns through PPT cash and carry now.(Has nothing to do with the license but I'll touch on this.) However, I cannot buy a C&R gun without 10 days waiting directly off a CA FFL 01 because I do not have a COE.

These questions are assuming all parties are located in CA.

My question is, starting next year. Do I need to get a COE to order C&R guns and have them shipped directly to me?

I currently do not have a COE, so if I want to buy a C&R gun from a private party, do I need to go a FFL01 to do a ppt transfer next year? Or can I just receive the gun with or without the COE? If I do have a COE can I receive it from a unlicensed person? Also, how about sells to a unlicensed person?

Also, what about transfers between FFL 03s?

The only thing I am sure is the requirement to report transfers and $19.00 to the CA DOJ.

Basically my main question is if I need to get COE next year to do the things I currently do.

1. Buying/Selling C&R guns online and receiving them.
2. Buying/Selling C&R guns between me and unlicensed person.
3. Buying/Selling C&R guns between FFL 03s, in and out of state.

Thanks in advance.

[asm_]

Short answer, starting 2014, 03FFL is worthless with out COE while in CA.

.

[aal780555]

And If I do get a COE? Can I still do the following without involving a FFL 01?

1. Buying/Selling C&R guns online and receiving them.
2. Buying/Selling C&R guns between me and unlicensed person.
3. Buying/Selling C&R guns between FFL 03s, in and out of state.

[TheeMikeB]

How difficult is it to get a COE? Seems like just another hoop to jump through.

[aal780555]

Well, nothing I am actually in the process of getting one. But last year I didn't NEED to. Now I think I do, but even when I do get one I am still not sure if I can do the following.

1. Buying/Selling C&R guns online and receiving them.
2. Buying/Selling C&R guns between me and unlicensed person.
3. Buying/Selling C&R guns between FFL 03s, in and out of state.

1 and 3 are probably good to go once I get the COE, my main issue is number 2 since I sometimes buy from unlicensed person.

[goldduster]

I would appreciate some advice, since I am confused as to what the requirements are for guns made before 1899. I understand that nothing was required before, but is anything needed now.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Nothing has changed for guns made before 1899. They are still exempt from California's dealer transfer and registration laws. The feds still don't even consider them to be firearms.

[Gunhacker]

Originally Posted by aal780555

Well, nothing I am actually in the process of getting one. But last year I didn't NEED to. Now I think I do, but even when I do get one I am still not sure if I can do the following.

1. Buying/Selling C&R guns online and receiving them.
2. Buying/Selling C&R guns between me and unlicensed person.
3. Buying/Selling C&R guns between FFL 03s, in and out of state.

1 and 3 are probably good to go once I get the COE, my main issue is number 2 since I sometimes buy from unlicensed person.

Same here with me... I'm trying to understand what the net effect of the new law is for long guns is.

The instructions for the new C&R long gun reporting form on the DOJ website looks to say you are good to go for #2 with the COE:

Collector In-State Acquisition of Curio or Relic Long Gun Report Requirements

Federally licensed collectors (FFL type 03) in California who have a current COE may acquire curio or relic long guns from
non-licensees without completing the transfer through a licensed firearms dealer only if he/she completes and submits this
report to the California Department of Justice within thirty (30) days of taking possession of the long gun. Your failure to
comply with this reporting requirement could result in criminal prosecution. (Pen. Code, §§ 27590 & 27966)

I've always had a COE, it was a "hassle" going through the process (live scan finger printing), but non eventful. One of the benefits of having the COE, if nothing else, was/is a C&R handgun exemption to the 10 day waiting period... don't know if that extends to long guns too now.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by Gunhacker

...One of the benefits of having the COE, if nothing else, was/is a C&R handgun exemption to the 10 day waiting period... don't know if that extends to long guns too now.

C&R FFLs with a COE are still exempt from the 10 day waiting period when acquiring C&R firearms from a California dealer. Nothing has changed about that this year.

[mariposawrick]

Since I came directly to this thread, which has been very helpful, is there a thread in the forums with guidance to applying for the COE? I am potentially dealing with an out of state dealer who claims he must charge $30 for paperwork to be able to sell and ship a C&R long gun, over 50, to me in California. THANKS

[k248576]

Use the following link to acquire your COE:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/coeapp.pdf

Follow the instructions. Takes about 10 days to 2 weeks & will run from what I've heard and paid $70 to $100 to process

[billmaykafer]

if you buy a C&R weapon (without having a coe) after 1/1/2014 from a dealer in San Diego,do you have to also pay $19 registration fee? or is it done by dealer?

[Mssr. Eleganté]

It's done by the dealer when he submits the DROS.

[Handelfan]

^ So if you buy a C&R long gun at a LGS now, it has to be registered?

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by Handelfan

^ So if you buy a C&R long gun at a LGS now, it has to be registered?

Yes. Starting back on January 1, 2014 the DROS system now registers long gun transfers just like handgun transfers.

And C&R FFLs who acquire C&R long guns outside of California have to register them within five days of returning to California by mailing in a form, just like they've had to do with C&R handguns.

And C&R FFLs who also have a COE have to mail in a form to register the C&R long guns that they acquire from non-dealers inside California.

[kouye]

Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté

Yes. Starting back on January 1, 2014 the DROS system now registers long gun transfers just like handgun transfers.

And C&R FFLs who acquire C&R long guns outside of California have to register them within five days of returning to California by mailing in a form, just like they've had to do with C&R handguns.

And C&R FFLs who also have a COE have to mail in a form to register the C&R long guns that they acquire from non-dealers inside California.

Which form is used, as a C&R and COE holder, when purchasing a C&R long gun from an out of state licensed dealer? BOF 961 seems to be for buying from non-licensees.

Edit: Is it BOF 4100A?

[pac531]

With the changes for 2014, does a C&R and COE still exempt you from the one every 30 day handgun purchase?

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by kouye

Which form is used, as a C&R and COE holder, when purchasing a C&R long gun from an out of state licensed dealer? BOF 961 seems to be for buying from non-licensees.

Edit: Is it BOF 4100A?

If the out of state dealer ships the long gun to you and you take possession inside California then you use BOF 961. If you take possession from the out of state dealer while you are outside of California then you use BOF 4100A.

Originally Posted by pac531

With the changes for 2014, does a C&R and COE still exempt you from the one every 30 day handgun purchase?

Yes, the C&R FFL + COE still exempts you from California's one handgun per 30 days rule. Any local restriction, like in Los Angeles, still applies though.

[Anunnaki]

If that is so, then the CA DOJ should update its website. https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs

14. Can I sell a gun directly to another person (i.e. non-dealer)?

Generally, no. This type of transaction is referred to as a “private party transfer” and must be conducted through a fully licensed California firearms dealer. Failure to do so is a violation of California law. The purchaser (and seller if the purchaser is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements.

Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request but may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting the transfer. For example:

For a private party transfer involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00 for the first handgun and $31.00 for each additional handgun involved in the same transaction.

For private party transfers involving one or more long guns, or a private party transfer involving one handgun, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00. The dealer may charge an additional dealer-service fee of up to $10.00 for each additional firearm.

"Antique firearms," as defined in section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement. For additional exceptions, refer to Penal Code sections 27850 through 27966.

(Pen. Code, § 27545.)

[flak88mm]

Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté

If the out of state dealer ships the long gun to you and you take possession inside California then you use BOF 961. If you take possession from the out of state dealer while you are outside of California then you use BOF 4100A.

Can u buy from a non ffl person with your c&r license while out of state without going thru an ffl here in ca once you import it?


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[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by flak88mm

Can u buy from a non ffl person with your c&r license while out of state without going thru an ffl here in ca once you import it?

Yes, you can acquire C&R handguns and C&R long guns from private parties while you are out of state and then report them to CalDOJ by sending in the form when you get back to California. The tricky part is getting the private seller's name and address. Many don't want to give out that info, but you can't buy from them without it.

[flak88mm]

Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté

Yes, you can acquire C&R handguns and C&R long guns from private parties while you are out of state and then report them to CalDOJ by sending in the form when you get back to California. The tricky part is getting the private seller's name and address. Many don't want to give out that info, but you can't buy from them without it.

I have his info I won the rifle from gunbroker and gunbroker discloses sellers address and phone number

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[Yorba1]

I tried to buy a C&R Mauser from J&G Sales in Arizona. They have my FFL03 on file; but now say they want a CA COE. Does anyone know when this changed ? I have purchased from them before without the COE.

[kouye]

Originally Posted by Yorba1

I tried to buy a C&R Mauser from J&G Sales in Arizona. They have my FFL03 on file; but now say they want a CA COE. Does anyone know when this changed ? I have purchased from them before without the COE.

New for 2014

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by anayaphoto

Question . If you are out of state can you purchase a 50+ year old rifle with out any license and bring it back to CA? I think I know answer but just want to confirm.

Nope. Since 1968 federal law has required transfers of firearms between residents of two different States to involve an FFL.

[Toyman321]

I have two C&R handguns that Im trying to sell, I have a buyer out of the area that wants me to ship to his FFL. Can I ship directly to his FFL or do I need to go through an FFL on my end as well? Advice would be appreciated. Thank you!

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Legally, you can ship them directly to his FFL. But many FFLs have a policy of only accepting shipments from other FFLs.

[kouye]

So this is what happened to me yesterday...

Bought a 1957 Win Model 94 30-30 cal from the personal collection of an FFL01 holder (he's runs an LGS). His claim was that it had to be DROS'ed and the 10 day wait applied even though I have a C&R Type 03 FFL and COE. He said it was because the rifle was not C&R any more due to the 30-30 cartridge still being in production.

I'm confused, I though the modern cartridge thing only applied to the definition of "antique" firearms.

Money-wise it was $25 for the DROS vs. $19 for self registration, but the point is the 10 day wait.

So, should it have been DROS'd and should I have had to wait the 10 days?

[DerZilla]

No,there is no waiting period if you have your CR and COE.

Yes you still have to go through the DROS. A lot of dealers don't know the new laws.

[TRICKSTER]

Originally Posted by kouye

So this is what happened to me yesterday...

Bought a 1957 Win Model 94 30-30 cal from the personal collection of an FFL01 holder (he's runs an LGS). His claim was that it had to be DROS'ed and the 10 day wait applied even though I have a C&R Type 03 FFL and COE. He said it was because the rifle was not C&R any more due to the 30-30 cartridge still being in production.

I'm confused, I though the modern cartridge thing only applied to the definition of "antique" firearms.

Money-wise it was $25 for the DROS vs. $19 for self registration, but the point is the 10 day wait.

So, should it have been DROS'd and should I have had to wait the 10 days?

He is confusing antique and C&R. They are two different things. Since he is a 01FFL it should be DROS'd. Since you have a 03FFL and COE the 10 day wait should be waived.
You do not need to self register, that is accomplished by the DROS.

[aal780555]

10 days wait and modern cartridge thing is bull ****.

Reference CA Pen. Code, §§ 26970

26970. (a) The waiting period described in Section 26815 does not
apply to the sale, delivery, loan, or transfer of a firearm if all of
the following conditions are satisfied:
(1) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11
of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.
(2) The sale, delivery, loan, or transfer is made by a dealer.
(3) The sale, delivery, loan, or transfer is made to a person who
is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with
Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the
regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(4) The licensed collector has a current certificate of
eligibility issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section
26710.
(b) On the date that the sale, delivery, or transfer is made, the
dealer delivering the firearm shall transmit to the Department of
Justice an electronic or telephonic report of the transaction as is
indicated in Section 28160 or 28165.

[kouye]

I figured he was wrong, but since he is retiring at the end of June, I didn't push it. I also need the 10 days to gather up reloading supplies for this caliber...but I am missing out on learning how to tear it down and such.

[vintagerifle]

Ok, so I'm unclear with the new rules this year, maybe you guys can help.
NOTE: My interests are exclusively with old lever action rifles.

My understanding is that within California, no matter how old the rifle, I now need to go through an FFL to buy a lever action rifle correct?

It is also my understanding that if I visit Montana, and find an old lever action rifle at a dealer that I want to buy, I must have it sent to my California FFL, correct?

It is my understanding that I cannot buy a rifle from an individual, out of state, correct?

C

[tonyl]

Hi all -

I am fairly certain this is the case since 01/01/2014 but your help are appreciated.
My understanding a non C&R (FFL03) / COE license carrier can no longer buy C&R long rifle without going through a FFL01 dealer even if the seller has a C&R (FFL03) license. Is this correct?
As much as I want to purchase a rifle from a fellow calgunner, I want to make sure to not make any mistake.
Thanks.

[TRICKSTER]

If the buyer has both a 03FFL and COE then you can still sell C&R long guns to them cash and carry, no 01 FFL required.. It is up to the buyer 03FFL/COE holder to self register it afterwards.

[Flyin Brian]

Originally Posted by vintagerifle

Ok, so I'm unclear with the new rules this year, maybe you guys can help.
NOTE: My interests are exclusively with old lever action rifles.

My understanding is that within California, no matter how old the rifle, I now need to go through an FFL to buy a lever action rifle correct?

It is also my understanding that if I visit Montana, and find an old lever action rifle at a dealer that I want to buy, I must have it sent to my California FFL, correct?

It is my understanding that I cannot buy a rifle from an individual, out of state, correct?

C

First Q:
If the rifle you are buying was made in 1898 or earlier, it is an antique and you do not need to go through an FFL. The only exception would be buying it from a California 01FFL dealer who entered it in his books for whatever reason, then you would need to DROS it to purchase it. If you are buying from a regular citizen, then you are good to go on an Antique.
Second Q:
If you apply for an 03FFL, you can go to any state and buy a C&R rifle or pistol and bring it back here. You have to mail in a form and $19 to register it after importing it here. Unfortunately, not all out of state dealers/pawn shops/individuals understand the law so you will encounter some idiots who refuse to honor the license, but that is just something you have to deal with. After you educate yourself, you can sometimes persuade other with a little educating... but sometimes they will not listen.
Third Q:
Same as above, if you have an 03FFL you can go out of state and buy a C&R from anyone who will sell it to you... gun store, individual, etc it doesn't matter. You can't buy modern unless you go through an FFL and have it shipped here, etc.