Cal Regs

[Dekker]

What's the deal with CA's C&R exemption and having it mailed/shipped? From what I read, if the rifle is over 50 years old then it is exempt from having to go through a FFL01 for a PPT. It's always the same situation but I just can't get a straight answer. I live in CA and don't have a license, but I only want to purchase a C&R so if I can find someone who has it then I just have to bring cash and leave with it. Now here's the problem, most people who have the rifles I want live in CA but not within driving distance. Regulations are always hazy and blurred and don't always give it to you in black and white.

-I want a C&R Rifle but don't have a license.
-Generally the person selling the C&R either doesn't have a license or has an 03.
-I want to purchase it but they are not within traveling distance.
-Can this firearm legally be shipped(UPS/FedEx) or mailed(USPS) to me?

[jmlivingston]

If shipping it from outside of CA then it must be sent to an FFL holder. That's a federal requirement.

Inside of CA, it does seem to be not so quite cut-and-dry. I'll let others answer that for you.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by Dekker

-I want a C&R Rifle but don't have a license.
-Generally the person selling the C&R either doesn't have a license or has an 03.
-I want to purchase it but they are not within traveling distance.
-Can this firearm legally be shipped(UPS/FedEx) or mailed(USPS) to me?

Like jmlivingston says, if the firearm is coming from somebody who is not a California resident then it generally has to go through a California Licensed Dealer in order to be transfered to an unlicensed person such as yourself.

If the firearm is coming from another California resident (who is not a California Licensed Dealer) and it is a C&R long gun that is at least 50 years old, then it is exempt from any requirements to be transfered through a California Licensed Dealer. There is nothing in the law saying such transfers have to be face to face. It's perfectly legal for somebody from San Francisco to mail a USGI M1 Garand to an 18 year old buyer from San Diego. That being said, most people won't want to ship a gun to a stranger. At minimum the seller should get a photocopy of the buyer's California Drivers License and ship only to the address on the license and pay extra for a service such as UPS's "Adult Signature Required". But there is really no way for the average person to verify if the Driver's License copy is even real. It could be photoshop'd by a 15 year old kid. When shipping to an FFL you can at least verify that the FFL is real by checking with BATFE.

Also, only UPS and USPS rules allow for shipping from one unlicensed person to another unlicensed person. FedEx and FedEx Ground rules don't allow it.

[spearedum]

Originally Posted by FortCourageArmory

One other useful feature of an 03 FLL (C&R License) is that the holder can....with possession of a CA Certificate of Eligibility....avoid the one-handgun-purchase-every-30-days rule. Nice little side benefit. As for criminality, an 03 FFL may take delivery of any long gun deemed to be a Curio & Relic directly from an out-of-state source. This means an 03 FFL holder can purchase a rifle from Auction Arms and get it mailed direct to him as long as it's over 50 years old. No harm, no foul.

Is a Yugo M48 considered a C&R, as it was not when I got my 03FFL in 03?

Thanx Dante'
Objects in mirror are closers than they appear:
DRIVE FASTER

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by spearedum

Is a Yugo M48 considered a C&R, as it was not when I got my 03FFL in 03?

Yes, they are listed by name on BATFE's C&R list...

Yugoslavian M1948 (M48) bolt action rifles, 7.92 x 57mm caliber, produced at the Kragujevac Arsenal, original military configuration only.

They were C&R back in 2003 as well. I don't know exactly when they were added to the C&R list, but it was before 2001. Also, since production of the M48 started in 1950, some of them would have started becoming C&R in the year 2000 based solely on their age.

Military surplus firearms can't be imported into the U.S. unless they are C&R firearms. So the fact importers were bringing them in back then means that they were C&R back then.

[ArtyB]

Originally Posted by chiefcrash

Here's the deal guys:

Any california resident (excluding 01 FFL dealers if the long gun in question is part of his dealer inventory) can transfer a 50+ year old long gun to another california resident without any paperwork, background check, DROS, etc. This means I can sell my 56 year old mosin to anyone in the state without going through a dealer.

Then why did I have to fill out a ton of paperwork, pay $25, and wait 10 days to buy a 70+ year old Mosin?

[Vin496]

Originally Posted by ArtyB

Then why did I have to fill out a ton of paperwork, pay $25, and wait 10 days to buy a 70+ year old Mosin?

Did you buy it from a gun store?

Have you read and understood everything in this thread, especially the post you quoted?

[IrishPirate]

Originally Posted by M. D. Van Norman

In practice, most people follow the 50-year rule, which excludes all handguns. However, this exemption has nothing to do with an FFL-03, beyond sharing part of the definition for relic status. By the strictest interpretation, one might conclude that a C&R license is completely worthless in California.

I’ve debated this issue myself, favoring a more liberal interpretation of the law. For example, I’ve been unable to locate specific language in the penal code prohibiting an FFL-03 holder from “importing” an eligible rifle less than 50 years old. The code is dense and difficult to read, so I could well be wrong.

Thus most take the more conservative approach.

excludes all handguns?? are you sure? i never saw anything about that! i know for a fact Tula Takarev tt-33's are C&R eligable. I think you're the one confused buddy.

[IrishPirate]

Originally Posted by EOD Guy

Penal Code Section 12072 (d) requires that all firearms be transferred through a California dealer. There is no exception for Type 03 FFL holders.

yes there is. It says so on the CA DOJ website. you dont need to go through a DEALER, you need to go through an FFL holder...a C&R license is an FFL license. You can only purchase C&R items this way, otherwise, what would be the point of having a C&R license if you had to go through a dealer? think before you post

[jmlivingston]

Originally Posted by IrishPirate

excludes all handguns?? are you sure? i never saw anything about that! i know for a fact Tula Takarev tt-33's are C&R eligable. I think you're the one confused buddy.

He's talking about the net effect of both California and Federal law. Yes the Fed's have qualified that there are C&R's less than 50 years old, both rifles and handguns. Problem is you still have to meet state laws, and CA says only firearms of 50 y.o. or greater can be PPT'd without going through a licensed dealer.

Originally Posted by IrishPirate

yes there is. It says so on the CA DOJ website. you dont need to go through a DEALER, you need to go through an FFL holder...a C&R license is an FFL license. You can only purchase C&R items this way, otherwise, what would be the point of having a C&R license if you had to go through a dealer? think before you post

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12070.php

Originally Posted by 12072(d)

Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's license issued pursuant to Section 12071, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Section 12082.

Have you even read most of this thread? I suggest you heed your own advice and

Originally Posted by IrishPirate

think before you post

You also might want to check your attitude at the door.....

John

[mievil]

Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté

There is no limit at all. Licensed Collectors can buy all the handguns they want while out of state. You just have to make more copies of the Form FD410A if all of your acquisitions don't fit on one form.

Dangit. I was also thinking we were only allowed to bring in one per 30 days. I wanted to pick up two in AZ Friday and only got one.

[Experimentalist]

Originally Posted by chiefcrash

Here's the deal guys:

... If you posses a 03 FFL, you can purchase any C&R eligible firearm while outside of the state. (all state and local laws for wherever you're visiting must be followed, so this probably won't work in NY) As long as the firearm is legal to posses in CA, you can bring it home with you (ie: no assault weapons, SBRs, etc). If you're bringing a handgun home, you must send a form + $19 (per gun) to the DOJ. ...

I'm about to apply for my C&R license, and was wondering if having family outside of the State of California might help with the restrictions on handgun purchases?

Would it be legal for me to purchase a handgun out of state, and have it delivered to my parents residence out of state? I would then personally drive up, have a nice visit, and drive back down with the guns. I would of course register them within the stated time limit.

This is not a straw purchase, as I am the one making the purchase on my Collectors license. Would this satisfy concerns regarding the direct purchase of out of state handguns?

Edited to add:

The reason you can purchase C&R firearm while out of state is simple. Since it is not mentioned in the penal code, it is legal. The basic premis in the law and regulations is that what is not prohibited, is allowed. Any prohibitions come in the import of those firearms and in the requirement to register handguns purchased out of state.

[jmlivingston]

Originally Posted by Experimentalist

Would it be legal for me to purchase a handgun out of state, and have it delivered to my parents residence out of state? I would then personally drive up, have a nice visit, and drive back down with the guns. I would of course register them within the stated time limit.

No. Firearms can only be delivered to the address on the license.

[Experimentalist]

Aha, thank you JMLivingston.

I'm just coming up to speed through the CalGuns, CalGunLaws, and CalGuns Wiki web sites. Many thanks to all who contributed to these resources, they are a wonderful help.

[Teej]

I've read through all 10 pages and haven't really found the answer. I'm a MA resident with an 03FFL. My father-in-law in CA has a 1943 Ithica 1911 I want to buy from him. Is he able to ship it to me once I send him payment and a copy of my C&R, does he need to wait 10 days before shipping it or does he need to have a CA 01FFL do it for him?

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by Teej

I've read through all 10 pages and haven't really found the answer. I'm a MA resident with an 03FFL. My father-in-law in CA has a 1943 Ithica 1911 I want to buy from him. Is he able to ship it to me once I send him payment and a copy of my C&R, does he need to wait 10 days before shipping it or does he need to have a CA 01FFL do it for him?

There is nothing in California law that prevents him from shipping it directly to you in Massachusetts and nothing in California law that requires him to wait any amount of time before shipping it.

I don't know about the Massachusetts side of the story though. I know that many vendors think it is illegal to ship C&R handguns to MA C&R FFL's, while other people say it is fine if the receiving C&R FFL has a FID card and fills out the FA-10. You're probably not here asking about Massachusetts law though.

[cruddymutt]

It hasnt been mentioned so Ill post the question with my understanding of the answer.
If a C&R holder while out of state buys an eligible firearm out of state (01 dealer) them Im sure the person would have to follow the other states rules? ie., if my brother in law from North Dakota buys a C&R rifle (01 dealer) under his C&R licence while visiting me in California then he will have to wait 10 days.
I assume this is correct? I know some states have waiting times. Something to take into account while on vacations. If I am wrong then please definatly school me.

[Teej]

Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté

There is nothing in California law that prevents him from shipping it directly to you in Massachusetts and nothing in California law that requires him to wait any amount of time before shipping it.

I don't know about the Massachusetts side of the story though. I know that many vendors think it is illegal to ship C&R handguns to MA C&R FFL's, while other people say it is fine if the receiving C&R FFL has a FID card and fills out the FA-10. You're probably not here asking about Massachusetts law though.

Thanks for the reply. One last question. To the best of my knowledge handguns are registered to an individual in CA. Is there anything he will need to file once the sale is complete?

As far as the laws in MA regarding handguns, there just isn't enough space to even begin to explain it in detail. The quick and dirty is that the Attorney General here is as anti-gun as it gets. If her office gets wind of a sale occurring she will go after the seller, basically a cease and desist letter with the threat of criminal charges. 99% of the time it's in regard to ammo sales but given that most C&R dealers also sell surplus ammo they get nailed at the same time, once bitten twice shy I guess. The issue is MA law requires MA dealers to physically check a buyers gun license before selling ammo. The law only applies to MA dealers which of course the AG exploits by not citing the whole section of law in their cease and desist letter. Unfortunately for us here in MA 99.9999% of the out of state dealers won't bother taking on the expense to fight the MA AG especially given the tiny market MA represents (there's <200k licensed gun owners in MA) so they just say no sales to MA. There are some dealers that will sell to MA resident but those are a closely guarded secret by people in the know in order to protect their supplier. I don't know if it's just that AG hasn't found out about them or that they called the AG's bluff but either way they're very few and far between. Sales by individuals fly under the radar in general and even if the AG got wind of the sale, the individual seller would just do the same thing as a dealer and not sell to a MA resident again. But you're right it's just a matter of filling out an FA-10 by the buyer. Which is all perfectly legal provided they have the proper license, for a handgun. They'd need an LTC-B for guns with <10 round capacity or an LTC-A for guns with >10 round capacity.

Sorry about the small dissertation on MA laws it's probably TMI but at least if you decide to sell something and you get interest from a MA buyer you'll know that a. it's legal and b. you might get a letter from the MA AG that means basically nothing.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by Teej

...To the best of my knowledge handguns are registered to an individual in CA. Is there anything he will need to file once the sale is complete?

Almost every way that Californians acquire handguns or bring them into the State now requires registration. But there are still tens of thousands of legally unregistered handguns here that were transfered or imported by new residents before registration was required. If your California seller has the handgun registered in his name and he wants to notify CalDOJ that he is selling it, he can send in a "No Longer In Possession" form to CalDOJ...

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/BOF4546NLIP0209.pdf

It is not required by law and the form is kind of intrusive with how much information and documentation it asks for.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by cruddymutt

If a C&R holder while out of state buys an eligible firearm out of state (01 dealer) them Im sure the person would have to follow the other states rules?

Yes, when a C&R FFL is outside of their State, they need to follow the rules of the State they are visiting with regard to firearms transfers. They do not need to follow the rules of their home State during the transfer, but do need to make sure the firearm is in a configuration that is legal to own in their State before bringing it back with them.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by Rhythm of Life

Question on the Regs.

Purchasing through a 01FFL dealer NOT PPT.

If I have a C&R and a COE on MODERN handguns I have to wait 10 days, but C&R handguns can be picked up same day? Or is it only long guns you get same day that are C&R?

I tried reading through all this but I have learning disabilities so its kind of hard for me to understand. Basically looking for a clear cut on waiting periods and take home for C&R, pistols and long guns and how that differs from PPT.

If you have both the C&R FFL and the COE and you are purchasing C&R firearms through a California licensed dealer then you can take the C&R firearms home the same day. This applies to C&R handguns and C&R long guns. It applies to C&R firearms of any age. It applies whether you are doing a PPT through the dealer, buying from the dealer's inventory or transferring something shipped in from out of the area through the dealer.

You still have to complete and pay for the DROS, but the 10 day waiting period is waived. Many California licensed dealers have a policy of ignoring this exemption and will make you do the 10 day wait anyway.

[Squashua]

so if i buy a 50+ year old handgun from online.. it has to be shipped and go thru a 01FFL dealer? + 10day wait?

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by Squashua

so if i buy a 50+ year old handgun from online.. it has to be shipped and go thru a 01FFL dealer? + 10day wait?

Correct. But if you have both a C&R FFL and a Certificate of Eligibility (COE) then you can skip the 10 day wait and take the handgun home from the 01FFL right after DROSing it.

[CrashMan]

I think I missed this so I'll just ask. My mom found a rifle that I wanted to buy myself for my 21st b-day. What are the laws for a parent to child transfer on a C&R rifle, as she's insistent on buying it.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by CrashMan

I think I missed this so I'll just ask. My mom found a rifle that I wanted to buy myself for my 21st b-day. What are the laws for a parent to child transfer on a C&R rifle, as she's insistent on buying it.

The correct answer depends on where the rifle is located now, whether or not your mom has a C&R FFL, and whether or not the two of you are both California residents.

If you and your mother are both California residents, she does not have a C&R FFL, and the rifle is in a local gun shop...she just buys the rifle, does the DROS and waits 10 days, picks up the rifle from the gun shop, gives the rifle to you.

[CrashMan]

Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté

If you and your mother are both California residents, she does not have a C&R FFL, and the rifle is in a local gun shop...she just buys the rifle, does the DROS and waits 10 days, picks up the rifle from the gun shop, gives the rifle to you.

This is actually the case. Thanks for the help. What about from a private seller though?

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by CrashMan

This is actually the case. Thanks for the help.

One thing to remember, it's not a good idea for your mom to mention to the dealer that she is buying the gun for you. It's perfectly legal for her to buy a firearm as a gift for her son. The instructions on the back of the Form 4473 clearly state this. But many dealers are spooked when a buyer tells them that they are buying a gun for somebody else because they think it might be a "straw purchase". If your mother is buying the gun as a bona fide gift for you with her own money then it isn't a straw purchase. But many dealers are confused about this, so just don't mention it to the dealer.

Your parent can buy modern guns for you this way too. This includes handguns if you are over 18 years of age and have a valid HSC.

Originally Posted by CrashMan

What about from a private seller though?

Two California residents, neither of whom is a California licensed dealer, can transfer a 50+ year old C&R long gun without going through an FFL, no paperwork or waiting period required. So if your mom found a private seller from California who was selling a 50 year old C&R long gun, she could buy it from them, cash and carry, and then give it to you.

[CrashMan]

Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté

If your mother is buying the gun as a bona fide gift for you with her own money then it isn't a straw purchase. But many dealers are confused about this, so just don't mention it to the dealer.

Your parent can buy modern guns for you this way too. This includes handguns if you are over 18 years of age and have a valid HSC.

Two California residents, neither of whom is a California licensed dealer, can transfer a 50+ year old C&R long gun without going through an FFL, no paperwork or waiting period required. So if your mom found a private seller from California who was selling a 50 year old C&R long gun, she could buy it from them, cash and carry, and then give it to you.

Alright, thanks. I am legal (and turning 21) to own/purchase firearms. I get that this could spook dealers though. Thanks again for the info.

[Bopper]

I'm a little confused by the regulations regarding selling an old handgun. Can someone help clarify. Based on what I see in this post it looks as though I must treat a 1870's handgun like any other for the purposes of a sale. Is that right?

Thanks in advance.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by mgbebout

I'm a little confused by the regulations regarding selling an old handgun. Can someone help clarify. Based on what I see in this post it looks as though I must treat a 1870's handgun like any other for the purposes of a sale. Is that right?

Thanks in advance.

A handgun manufactured before 1899 is exempt from California's dealer transfer requirement. You just have to make sure the buyer is at least 18 years old. The actual handgun you are selling has to have been manufactured before 1899, not just that model of handgun. So a Model 1895 Nagant revolver made in 1898 can be transfered in California without going through a dealer, but one made in 1899 has to go through a dealer.

[Bopper]

That is really good news. I would really like to see that spelled out in the regs and will look a little harder. Thanks for the clarification. I'm assuming that I'm also free to ship accross state lines without issue as well. Would that be a correct assumption?

Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté

A handgun manufactured before 1899 is exempt from California's dealer transfer requirement. You just have to make sure the buyer is at least 18 years old. The actual handgun you are selling has to have been manufactured before 1899, not just that model of handgun. So a Model 1895 Nagant revolver made in 1898 can be transfered in California without going through a dealer, but one made in 1899 has to go through a dealer.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by mgbebout

...I'm assuming that I'm also free to ship accross state lines without issue as well. Would that be a correct assumption?

Yes. The Feds don't even consider it to be a firearm because it was manufactured before 1899. Guns made before 1899 are considered "antiques" and not "firearms" under Federal law, even if they fire modern ammo. Anything that is an "antique" under Federal law is still a "firearm" under California law, but it is a "firearm" that is exempt from California's dealer transfer requirement.

Muzzle loaders are also "antiques" no matter when they were made (except for certain in-line muzzle loaders that use modern centerfire primers and muzzle loaders built on a "firearm" frame).

[Mickey D]

Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté

Correct. But if you have both a C&R FFL and a Certificate of Eligibility (COE) then you can skip the 10 day wait and take the handgun home from the 01FFL right after DROSing it.

Too bad having a CCW doesn't cover the COE need. Same LiveScan background check.

I have an 03FFL, making my first online purchase of a C&R eligible handgun. I know the gun needs to be shipped to my 01FFL. Do I need to fax/scan my copy of 03FFL to seller, or give to 01FFL here in CA?

Thanks for the advice.

[jmlivingston]

Originally Posted by Mickey D

I have an 03FFL, making my first online purchase of a C&R eligible handgun. I know the gun needs to be shipped to my 01FFL. Do I need to fax/scan my copy of 03FFL to seller, or give to 01FFL here in CA?

Assuming no COE then neither. Have your CA 01FFL send a copy of his license to the seller. When the gun arrives at your 01FFL, go do the paperwork like any other firearm purchase. Once you pick it up and take it home, enter it into your bound book.

In this particular case having a C&R license is actually more work as you have to enter it into your own book.

John

[Mickey D]

Thanks John. Easy Peesy

[asm_]

I don't suppose I need to enter modern handgun and long gun purchases into my C&R book as well, or do I?

B

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Only C&R firearms get logged in your bound book, and only if you acquire or dispose of them while you are licensed.

[vhuang168]

I need some clarification on the C&R regs. As I understand the law, ANY long gun older than 50 yrs qualifies.

I'm looking to purchase an older winchester that the seller says is 50+ but I don't think it is. If it turns out not to be AFTER I buy it, should I then bring it to an FFL n do my DROS? What about the fact the seller did not do DROS and only got a bill of sale from the person he bought it from?

Thanks in advance! This is such a great resource, I've been send links to all my gun owning friends!

Vincent

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by vhuang168

I need some clarification on the C&R regs. As I understand the law, ANY long gun older than 50 yrs qualifies.

I'm looking to purchase an older winchester that the seller says is 50+ but I don't think it is. If it turns out not to be AFTER I buy it, should I then bring it to an FFL n do my DROS? What about the fact the seller did not do DROS and only got a bill of sale from the person he bought it from?

Thanks in advance! This is such a great resource, I've been send links to all my gun owning friends!

Vincent

You can post the model and serial number in this thead...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=410211

...and Trap55 might give you the year of manufacture of the Winchester. If it's over 50 years old then it is C&R. Is the seller a California resident too?

[vhuang168]

Yes he is. I'll try to get a serial number off him.