Cal Regs

[wtrtroughreg]

Now that I have my C&R, do I have to get any more licenses from Ca before I can buy through the on-line auctions or places like SAMCO, Aim Surplus, Classic Arms, and such?

[Pthfndr]

No. The C&R is enough. Make LOTS of copies. Do NOT sign the original!

[EOD Guy]

Here is a short synopsis of the California regulations concerning C&R firearms and licenses:

There is a lot of confusion around concerning the California regulations on C&R Firearms. The first thing to remember is that California, with few exceptions, requires all firearms transfers in the state to be processed through a dealer [Penal Code 12072(d)]. There is no exception for C&R FFL holders. There is however, an exception to the dealer transfer requirement for C&R rifles and shotguns that are over 50 years old. [PC 12078(t)(2)] This exception is available to anyone legally able to possess firearms. California doesn’t care if you are licensed or not, that’s a Federal matter. The 50 year rifle and shotgun exception is the reason that C&R FFL holders in California can receive these types of firearms directly from an out of state supplier.

The California definition for a C&R firearm is exactly the same as that used by BATF in 27CFR. California references both Title 18 and 27 CFR for the definition. If the Feds say a firearm is C&R, so does the California DOJ.

There are a couple of exceptions to the firearms laws that are available to C&R FFL holders. If the licensee also holds a Certificate of Eligibility (COE) from the California DOJ, they are exempt from the 10-day waiting period when buying C&R firearms from a dealer. [PC 12078(t)(1)] The same C&R FFL holder with a COE is also exempt from the one handgun a month law for both C&R and modern handguns. [PC 12072(a)(9)(B)] You also would not need a handgun safety certificate when purchasing C&R handguns. [PC 12807(a)(6)]


Where the C&R FFL comes in handy is when the holder is out of the state. They may purchase any C&R firearm and bring it back to California. The exceptions of course include those “evil” “assault weapons”. Also, magazines with a capacity greater than 10 rounds cannot be brought back. Any C&R handguns purchased must be registered with the California DOJ within 5 days and are reported on Form BCIA 4100A along with a $19.00 payment for each handgun. [PC 12072(f)(3)] The form is now on the California DOJ web site, forms section.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Nope. As Pthfndr said, make a crapload of copies because you will need it.

P.S.

Don't max out your cards.

[M. D. Van Norman]

In practice, most people follow the 50-year rule, which excludes all handguns. However, this exemption has nothing to do with an FFL-03, beyond sharing part of the definition for relic status. By the strictest interpretation, one might conclude that a C&R license is completely worthless in California.

I’ve debated this issue myself, favoring a more liberal interpretation of the law. For example, I’ve been unable to locate specific language in the penal code prohibiting an FFL-03 holder from “importing” an eligible rifle less than 50 years old. The code is dense and difficult to read, so I could well be wrong.

Thus most take the more conservative approach.

[EOD Guy]

Originally Posted by M. D. Van Norman

In practice, most people follow the 50-year rule, which excludes all handguns. However, this exemption has nothing to do with an FFL-03, beyond sharing part of the definition for relic status. By the strictest interpretation, one might conclude that a C&R license is completely worthless in California.

I’ve debated this issue myself, favoring a more liberal interpretation of the law. For example, I’ve been unable to locate specific language in the penal code prohibiting an FFL-03 holder from “importing” an eligible rifle less than 50 years old. The code is dense and difficult to read, so I could well be wrong.

Thus most take the more conservative approach.

Penal Code Section 12072 (d) requires that all firearms be transferred through a California dealer. There is no exception for Type 03 FFL holders.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Originally Posted by EOD Guy

Penal Code Section 12072 (d) requires that all firearms be transferred through a California dealer. There is no exception for Type 03 FFL holders.

...err, no?

The fuzziness comes from what the Feds say qualifies as C&R (such as certain civilian and military models), and California law pertaining to firearms capable of being concealed on a person (Handguns). Those have to go through 01 FFLs, IIRC. Even when I was pointed out my errors a couple months ago the Federal/State law was mixed up.

Unless you mean to tell me that having a rifle shipped to you that is 50+ years old from another state (or in-state) to you when you have an 03 FFL is a crime, or face-to-face transactions with the same rifle status as previously mentioned, I believe you are mistaken.

[M. D. Van Norman]

Well, that’s the conclusion I would draw from EOD Guy’s interpretation. It took me a while to get my FFL-03, because I was afraid it would be useless.

Even if you assume the 50-year exemption applies to out-of-state sellers, it only covers infrequent transfers, if I recall correctly. Are AIM, SOG, and the CMP criminals, or am I the criminal for buying their stuff?

[FortCourageArmory]

One other useful feature of an 03 FLL (C&R License) is that the holder can....with possession of a CA Certificate of Eligibility....avoid the one-handgun-purchase-every-30-days rule. Nice little side benefit. As for criminality, an 03 FFL may take delivery of any long gun deemed to be a Curio & Relic directly from an out-of-state source. This means an 03 FFL holder can purchase a rifle from Auction Arms and get it mailed direct to him as long as it's over 50 years old. No harm, no foul.

[vf111]

Originally Posted by FortCourageArmory

As for criminality, an 03 FFL may take delivery of any long gun deemed to be a Curio & Relic directly from an out-of-state source. This means an 03 FFL holder can purchase a rifle from Auction Arms and get it mailed direct to him as long as it's over 50 years old. No harm, no foul.

How about a California seller? Can a C&R holder purchase a >50 year old long gun from a Calif. seller without having to go through the typical transfer / 10 day wait through an 01 FFL? If so, does the seller have to be an C&R holder as well?

[jmlivingston]

Better than that - no license is required for the transfer of a longarm older than 50 years old.

John

[EOD Guy]

Originally Posted by Dr. Peter Venkman

...err, no?

The fuzziness comes from what the Feds say qualifies as C&R (such as certain civilian and military models), and California law pertaining to firearms capable of being concealed on a person (Handguns). Those have to go through 01 FFLs, IIRC. Even when I was pointed out my errors a couple months ago the Federal/State law was mixed up.

Unless you mean to tell me that having a rifle shipped to you that is 50+ years old from another state (or in-state) to you when you have an 03 FFL is a crime, or face-to-face transactions with the same rifle status as previously mentioned, I believe you are mistaken.

No, one of the exceptions to the dealer transfer requirement is for C&R rifles and shotguns that are over 50 years old. Possession of a C&R FFL has no bearing on that exception. Also, both Federal and California law have the same definition for C&R firearms. California defers to the Federal law.

[EOD Guy]

Originally Posted by vf111

How about a California seller? Can a C&R holder purchase a >50 year old long gun from a Calif. seller without having to go through the typical transfer / 10 day wait through an 01 FFL? If so, does the seller have to be an C&R holder as well?

The 50 year long arm exception is applicable to anyone in California legally able to possess the firearm. A C&R FFL has nothing to do with it on either end of the transaction.

[M. D. Van Norman]

But can’t the exemption be exploited only infrequently? I seem to recall a definition of less than 10 sales per year, but I don’t feel like sifting through the code again just yet. Now, that provision may be unenforceable against out-of-state dealers, but wasn’t the DOJ able to choke off the flow of C&R handguns with the threat of lawsuits?

[vf111]

Originally Posted by EOD Guy

The 50 year long arm exception is applicable to anyone in California legally able to possess the firearm. A C&R FFL has nothing to do with it on either end of the transaction.

So anyone legally able to possess a firearm can do cash & carry on a 50 year old or older long gun? I remember that was the case in the mid-90's but I thought that was changed?

[chiefcrash]

Here's the deal guys:

Any california resident (excluding 01 FFL dealers if the long gun in question is part of his dealer inventory) can transfer a 50+ year old long gun to another california resident without any paperwork, background check, DROS, etc. This means I can sell my 56 year old mosin to anyone in the state without going through a dealer.

If you posses a 03 FFL, you can recieve 50+ long guns from out of state (mail order, internet, etc). The reason a person without a 03 FFL can not do this is federal law says you can't sell to residents of other states unless they have a FFL.

If you posses a 03 FFL, you can purchase any C&R eligible firearm while outside of the state. (all state and local laws for wherever you're visiting must be followed, so this probably won't work in NY) As long as the firearm is legal to posses in CA, you can bring it home with you (ie: no assault weapons, SBRs, etc). If you're bringing a handgun home, you must send a form + $19 (per gun) to the DOJ.



AS FOR SELLING STUFF:
There is no "you can only sell XX number of firearms per year" restrictions whatsoever.

However, if you have a 03 FFL, you may not engage in business. What does this mean? It's fuzzy. You are entitled to sell any of your guns, even at a profit. You just can't be making a living off buying and selling guns...

[vf111]

Originally Posted by chiefcrash

Here's the deal guys:

Any california resident (excluding 01 FFL dealers if the long gun in question is part of his dealer inventory) can transfer a 50+ year old long gun to another california resident without any paperwork, background check, DROS, etc. This means I can sell my 56 year old mosin to anyone in the state without going through a dealer.

...

Well I'll be.....didn't think we could do this anymore....

[M. D. Van Norman]

Chiefcrash, that’s all well and good and, as I understand it, the common practice. However, when I try to work out the implications of the presumed prohibition on handguns and non-50-year-old longarms, I come to the conclusion that any such interpretation must also exclude longarms older than 50 years as well. Everyone refers to the 50-year exemption for non-licensees, but I think that applies only to occasional or infrequent transactions. The business done by the big out-of-state sellers is certainly neither occasional nor infrequent.

As far as I can tell, the only place where the law recognizes the notion that an FFL-03 holder can bring a C&R gun in from out of state is in the requirement that handguns so acquired must be registered. Nowhere can I find the clause that says a licensed collector may buy C&R firearms by mail order or while out of state. Instead, I see a long list of restrictions on who can sell firearms to whom.

[EOD Guy]

Originally Posted by M. D. Van Norman

Chiefcrash, that’s all well and good and, as I understand it, the common practice. However, when I try to work out the implications of the presumed prohibition on handguns and non-50-year-old longarms, I come to the conclusion that any such iterpretation must also exclude longarms older than 50 years as well. Everyone refers to the 50-year exemption for non-licensees, but I think that applies only to occasional or infrequent transactions. The business done by the big out-of-state sellers is certainly neither occasional nor infrequent.

As far as I can tell, the only place where the law recognizes the notion that an FFL-03 holder can bring a C&R gun in from out of state is in the requirement that handguns so acquired must be registered. Nowhere can I find the clause that says a licensed collector may buy C&R firearms by mail order or while out of state. Instead, I see a long list of restrictions on who can sell firearms to whom.

As far as the out of state sellers are concerned, the infrequent or occasional sales mentioned in the penal code only applies to unlicensed persons in California.

You won't find anything that says you can buy C&R firearms by mail order. The 50 year exemption is why C&R FFL holders can purchase these firearms. California doesn't care if you have an FFL or not, that's a Federal matter.

The reason you can purchase C&R firearm while out of state is simple. Since it is not mentioned in the penal code, it is legal. The basic premis in the law and regulations is that what is not prohibited, is allowed. Any prohibitions come in the import of those firearms and in the requirement to register handguns purchased out of state.

[jmlivingston]

Originally Posted by EOD Guy

You won't find anything that says you can buy C&R firearms by mail order. The 50 year exemption is why C&R FFL holders can purchase these firearms. California doesn't care if you have an FFL or not, that's a Federal matter.

Right, it's a legal state transaction in CA because of the 50+ exemption. It's a legal Fed transaction because you used your 03FFL license for the matter of interstate commerce. That's why somebody without a license can't purchase via mail or internet order that very same item from an out of state supplier, it doesn't meet federal requirements.

Originally Posted by EOD Guy

The reason you can purchase C&R firearm while out of state is simple. Since it is not mentioned in the penal code, it is legal. The basic premis in the law and regulations is that what is not prohibited, is allowed. Any prohibitions come in the import of those firearms and in the requirement to register handguns purchased out of state.

Even more so, our state has no authority over you once you cross the CA border. That's why they get you when you return, as an importer.

John

[EOD Guy]

Originally Posted by chiefcrash

Here's the deal guys:



AS FOR SELLING STUFF:
There is no "you can only sell XX number of firearms per year" restrictions whatsoever.

However, if you have a 03 FFL, you may not engage in business. What does this mean? It's fuzzy. You are entitled to sell any of your guns, even at a profit. You just can't be making a living off buying and selling guns...

There is a restriction. Penal Code Section 12070(c)(1) limits an unlicensed individual to less than 6 transactions per calendar year. Each transaction can be for any number of handguns.

For other firearms you are limited to "infrequent" transfers which the Penal Code defines as "occasional and without regularity."

[chiefcrash]

Originally Posted by EOD Guy

There is a restriction. Penal Code Section 12070(c)(1) limits an unlicensed individual to less than 6 transactions per calendar year. Each transaction can be for any number of handguns.

For other firearms you are limited to "infrequent" transfers which the Penal Code defines as "occasional and without regularity."

so, there really is no restriction on the number of GUNS you can transfer, just the number of transactions. thanks for proving me correct!

i was trying to outline the 03 FFL specific rules/restriction for selling stuff, i guess i should have been more clear on that...

[M. D. Van Norman]

Chief, why would you expect the law to make sense?

[chiefcrash]

Originally Posted by M. D. Van Norman

Chief, why would you expect the law to make sense?

i wouldn't say "expect" so much as "wish"...

or maybe "dream"...

[EOD Guy]

Originally Posted by chiefcrash

so, there really is no restriction on the number of GUNS you can transfer, just the number of transactions. thanks for proving me correct!

I just knew that was the reply you were going to post.

[packnrat]

Originally Posted by vf111

How about a California seller? Can a C&R holder purchase a >50 year old long gun from a Calif. seller without having to go through the typical transfer / 10 day wait through an 01 FFL? If so, does the seller have to be an C&R holder as well?

if you have a c&r class 3 ffl, you can buy any long gun from a privit party in and out of the state of ca.
so long as said is over 50 years old. and on the c & r list

you can buy any pistol that is over 50 years old and on the c & r list out of state. and pay a tax along with a form to the doj here in ca. you get to keep the gun in your house, no 10 day wait.

to buy any pistol here in ca, if over 50 years old and on the c&r list cash and carry applys,

any long or short gun less than fifty years old, same old anti gun rules apply.

black powerd guns, ie push down the tube style, no wait for any long or short gun. the true cash and carry.

and all guns you buy using your c&r must be listed in you book. list who you bought it from and listed as to who you sold it to.

[jmlivingston]

Originally Posted by packnrat

to buy any pistol here in ca, if over 50 years old and on the c&r list cash and carry applys,

Um, you might want to check into that again. A C&R 03FFL does not allow you to cash-and-carry a handgun.

John

[chiefcrash]

Originally Posted by packnrat

if you have a c&r class 3 ffl, you can buy any long gun from a privit party in and out of the state of ca.
so long as said is over 50 years old. and on the c & r list

you can buy any pistol that is over 50 years old and on the c & r list out of state. and pay a tax along with a form to the doj here in ca. you get to keep the gun in your house, no 10 day wait.

to buy any pistol here in ca, if over 50 years old and on the c&r list cash and carry applys,

any long or short gun less than fifty years old, same old anti gun rules apply.

black powerd guns, ie push down the tube style, no wait for any long or short gun. the true cash and carry.

and all guns you buy using your c&r must be listed in you book. list who you bought it from and listed as to who you sold it to.

packnrat, allow me to correct you:

if you have a c&r class 3 ffl, you can buy any long gun from a privit party in and out of the state of ca.
so long as said is over 50 years old. and on the c & r list

The 50+ year old restriction is only a requirement if YOU are physically in the state. If YOU are out of the state buying guns, then you can purchase *ANY* C&R eligible firearm regardless of age

you can buy any pistol that is over 50 years old and on the c & r list out of state. and pay a tax along with a form to the doj here in ca. you get to keep the gun in your house, no 10 day wait.

Once again, if YOU are physically outside the state, you can purchase *ANY* C&R eligible firearm regardless of age.

to buy any pistol here in ca, if over 50 years old and on the c&r list cash and carry applys,

If YOU are physically INSIDE california and trying to purchase a handgun, it *MUST* go through a 01 FFL dealer. 10 day wait applies unless you have BOTH a C&R license and a COE.

any long or short gun less than fifty years old, same old anti gun rules apply.

This is only true if YOU are physically inside california. Outside of california, age doesn't matter, only C&R status.

and all guns you buy using your c&r must be listed in you book. list who you bought it from and listed as to who you sold it to.

*sigh* repeat after me:
I AM LICENSED, I DO NOT "USE" MY LICENSE.
you got the right idea. It's just a pet peeve of mine to hear people say they "use" their license....

[JawBone]

Originally Posted by M. D. Van Norman

As far as I can tell, the only place where the law recognizes the notion that an FFL-03 holder can bring a C&R gun in from out of state is in the requirement that handguns so acquired must be registered. Nowhere can I find the clause that says a licensed collector may buy C&R firearms by mail order or while out of state. Instead, I see a long list of restrictions on who can sell firearms to whom.

You are looking at the wrong law (CA). CA does not consider 50+ year old longarms "firearms," so the CA "firearm" transfer laws do not apply. So, the only laws which do apply are federal.

18 U.S.C. 923(b):

Transactions in curios and relics...
(c) Upon the filing of a proper application and payment of the
prescribed fee, the Attorney General shall issue to a qualified
applicant the appropriate license which, subject to the provisions
of this chapter and other applicable provisions of law, shall
entitle the licensee to transport, ship, and receive firearms and
ammunition covered by such license in interstate or foreign
commerce during the period stated in the license.

[chiefcrash]

Originally Posted by JawBone

You are looking at the wrong law (CA). CA does not consider 50+ year old longarms "firearms," so the CA "firearm" transfer laws do not apply. So, the only laws which do apply are federal.

CA certainly considers 50+ year old long arms "firearms". They just specifically exempt 50+ long arms from the requirement to go through a 01 FFL...

right idea, wrong reasoning...

[wtrtroughreg]

So as I am reading these replies about Cal regs for 50+ long guns, if I buy a 50+ long gun from Auction Arms, Gun Broker, ect. I don't need to worry about California DROS, just enter in my book. Is this correct?

[jmlivingston]

Originally Posted by wtrtroughreg

So as I am reading these replies about Cal regs for 50+ long guns, if I buy a 50+ long gun from Auction Arms, Gun Broker, ect. I don't need to worry about California DROS, just enter in my book. Is this correct?

Yes, that's correct.

Only other thing to add, just because I haven't seen it mentioned here, is you still have to comply with all the Assault Weapon (AW) laws. So be careful of SKS's with grenade launchers, and AW features.

John

[vf111]

Originally Posted by chiefcrash

The 50+ year old restriction is only a requirement if YOU are physically in the state. If YOU are out of the state buying guns, then you can purchase *ANY* C&R eligible firearm regardless of age


....

So to finally put this to bed for a non-C&R holder like me, I can sell a 50+ year old rifle to anyone inside Calif. w/o monkeying around w/ the DROS as long as that person can legally own guns. It's even better if that person is a C&R holder. Am I correct?

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Originally Posted by vf111

So to finally put this to bed for a non-C&R holder like me, I can sell a 50+ year old rifle to anyone inside Calif. w/o monkeying around w/ the DROS as long as that person can legally own guns. It's even better if that person is a C&R holder. Am I correct?

Yes.

[pdangeruss]

For those of you interested, I ran across this Memorandum of Law prepared by a law firm and submitted to the CA DOJ which they agreed with. It is lengthy but does deal very well with interpreting the ins and outs of CA law regarding transfers, importing, etc. of C&R firearms, of all categories. Long guns, Handguns, and C&R Firearms less than 50 years old.

http://www.calgunlaws.com/article-122.html

[daves100]

Does the CA Certificate of eligibility cover new handguns also, could i walk into a gun store and walk out with a new pistol same day

( yes i did search but nothing came up )

Originally Posted by FortCourageArmory

One other useful feature of an 03 FLL (C&R License) is that the holder can....with possession of a CA Certificate of Eligibility....avoid the one-handgun-purchase-every-30-days rule. Nice little side benefit. As for criminality, an 03 FFL may take delivery of any long gun deemed to be a Curio & Relic directly from an out-of-state source. This means an 03 FFL holder can purchase a rifle from Auction Arms and get it mailed direct to him as long as it's over 50 years old. No harm, no foul.

[diginit]

http://www.calgunlaws.com/article-122.html
Page not found

The page you are looking for might have been removed,
had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.

Please try the following:

If you typed the page address in the Address bar, make sure that it is spelled correctly.
- Click the Back button in your browser to try another link.
- Use a search engine like Google to look for information on the Internet. HTTP 404 - File not found

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????? I wanted to read this.............

[pdangeruss]

From the home page: http://www.calgunlaws.com/ under “MODULES” (top left hand pane) , there is a heading: “TOPICS”, click there and then scroll down to “Antiques, Curios and Relics.” The “Memorandum of Law” is there, for some reason the actual links from this site don’t work to copy/paste any longer. The page with the actual DOJ approval letter isn’t indexed properly, but I’m sure if you contact them they will be happy to provide it to you, it is archived. They recently changed their website, and it is somewhat difficult to navigate on. It is also a Trutanich - Michel Lawfirm website.

[amurphy]

Ok. In the mail today I found brown envelope with my FFL 03 forms in it to fill out. I requested them last Friday and today is Thursday. Amazing!

So on to my questions. I live within 1000 feet of a school in El Cajon(San Diego) any special hoops I will have to jump through? I will be purchasing mainly longarms.
Are there any local laws that would prevent me from getting a 03? I am totally legal to own and purchase a longarm or handgun. Totally clean record.
Thanks for the help!! Really looking forward to my CMP purchases I plan on!

(Move this if it needs to please.)

[Mssr. Eleganté]

You are good to go amurphy.