The ongoing C&R Vendor Report.

[mcubed4130]

After dealing with questions like:
"Is a FFL03 C&R license worth it in Cali?" http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=57574
"How long did it take to get your FFL03 C&R" http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=47389

I then found myself asking the questions of - Where do I send my FFL 03 C&R? Who do I send it to first? Which vendors give discounts to FFL 03 C&R holders? Do I have to snail mail everyone or can I fax, email, etc?

It wasn't hard to find lists of people to send to, but the vendors change over time; as do the processes they accept; so I decided to simply document my own experiences, in an attempt to create a expectations guide that others can use.

If you have had experiences contrary to my own, please post to this thread, and I'll include them in this main post.

First, here is the method I used: I made many copies of original license - then put he unsigned original in my safe. The copies I signed in RED ink. I then scanned a signed copy, made into JPG. Then emailed w/attachment, or faxed, or periodically sat down and did the snail mail thing; personal phone calls are very hard for me to make from work, so it doesn't happen very often.

Here is my report so far:

Vendors providing discounts for FFL03 C&R holders:

Brownells - http://www.brownells.com - faxed w/email followup, online acct created and setup by afternoon of next day. Big huge catalog w/dealer pricing in my mailbox 2 weeks later. Have used them many times, great deals and great service.

*B&H Shooters - *No longer offer any discounts to FFL03 dealers - http://www.bhshooters.com

DPMS - http://www.dpmsinc.com/ - Contacted them via email, quick turnaround - asking me to fax my FFL03, emailed a response back, they quickly said it will take them a day or so, to update their system, then call back and request a dealer catalog. 5 weeks later - I finally called them, and they confirmed they did get my FFL03 and sent me a catalog last week? Ok, 3 weeks later I finally got my first catalog.

EMF Company - http://www.emf-company.com/ - offers discounts to any FFL03 holder per their declaration right here on CGN! Accolades here!

Grafs - http://www.grafs.com - faxed w/email followup - no response. After multiple phone calls, talking to 3 different people - finally got setup. - Once you receive a dealer account, there is a small section of C&R firearms on their site as well. NOTE: as shown here you may need to spend $2k per year to keep your dealer discount!

Midwayusa - http://www.midwayusa.com - faxed w/email followup, online acct modified with dealer page by morning next day. Have used them many times, great deals and great service.

Numrich - http://www.e-gunparts.com/ - Called hated their voicemail system, eventually got a live person, who was very nice to deal with. She told me to fax my FFL03, w/email contact info - they are supposed to respond by email. Received a very nice welcome letter via mail about a week later, with instructions on how to create a web account. Note: You can only create your online account using I.E. - mozilla, netscape, etc, all fail with a ASP error.

FFL Dealers, providing C&R firearms:

Aimsurplus (OH) - http://www.aimsurplus.com - faxed w/email followup, no response... I finally called them they dug around for a while, then finally told me - they must have thrown out my info, because I sent it by fax, and to try again by mail. Ok, finally sent them C&R by mail, and they were quite fast to respond to my contact info via email - easy process - as long as you use snail mail.

Allan's Armory (FL) - http://www.allans-armory.com - emailed w/scan per their website - no response - website says it's closed until - sometime; ok it's been a couple months, I noted some people are starting to talk about Allan's again, I emailed again, this time, got response, saying he did not receive my request, I resent my attachment via email, and am now finally setup.

Centerfire Systems, Inc. (KY) - http://www.centerfiresystems.com - emailed w/scan as they have no posted policy - no response. Called, they dug around, and found my info, nice enough to deal with via phone.

Century International (FL) - http://www.centuryarms.com - mailed per their website, called a couple weeks later, nice guys on the phone, setup my online account right away on the phone. Added me to email lists, and are sending me a catalog. Additional noteworthy items, $75+ order = fixed S&H charge of $12.95, $500+ order = free shipping. UPDATE: Century - Only ships AMMO to CA for FFL03 or FFL01 holders. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=72313

Classicarms (NC) - http://www.classicarms.us - faxed, called no answer and no voicemail, tried to email no address available, on and off I tried calling on Fridays (my 1 day of the week I can call - no answer during posted work hours) - now nearly 3 months later, I happened to call (not-on a Friday), and actually SPOKE to someone! WOW... They confirmed, they do NOT have voicemail, and they do NOT do email, and in general they do NOT work on Fridays during the summer - as it's too hot? Anyway, they did say they now are again working on Friday's till 1pm EST; and they have no plans to add voicemail or email. So if you want to reliably contact them, call Monday-Thursday, 9am-5pm EST. Oh, and yes - they did have my FFL I faxed to them on file from 3 months before; but I guess they don't contact people either. Seems like a rather odd way to do business, but I guess they get enough business to survive operating in this way. Additional experiences from others on the forum - here in September 2007 and also here in December 2008 and also here in December 2009 and also here in July 2012 and also here and here in November 2012.

Empire Arms (FL) - http://www.empirearms.com - tried fax, constant busy signals - sent email follow up w/scanned attachment of signed FFL. 2 hours later same day - I get a response, saying I'm all setup! wow! Owner apologized via email - that the Florida storms had his phones underwater, but greatly preferred the resolution and clarity of the scanned email instead. Seems like a good friendly owner, all firearms are graded individually, nearly all sales done through special email sales, any remaining items go to the website. Additional notes, many people here have reported the firearms received were exactly as stated, the owner is very good to work with, and even provides a "find your specific firearm for you" type service.

I.O. Inc - http://www.ioinc.us - mailed per their website, called and left a phone message about 3 weeks later - couldn't get anyone live to answer. (Also I assume that I.O. used to be InterOrdnance - as any reference to them is now gone.) Several days after my voicemail, they called back, confirming they received my license. I then manually created an account on their website; called back in; and they confirmed they will internally match up my FFL with the website account. *Family Friendly Warning; mailers and emails sometimes make me wonder if they are selling women's underwear instead of firearms.*

J&G (AZ) - http://www.jgsales.com - faxed w/email followup - 2 weeks of later - got a letter saying they wanted signed in non-black ink, I sent them a return letter, and didn't hear back. Additional phone call follow up - finally got my account setup.

Rguns - http://rguns.net/ - as mentioned here later in this thread.

Samco Global Arms (FL) - http://www.samcoglobal.com - emailed w/scan as they have no posted policy - responded saying they only accept mail. After about a month, I called them, they confirmed they received my FFL. Funny - you would think, that if a new customer takes the time to send in an FFL - which obviously means he's wanting to buy - they could at least send some type of response. Oh well. Additional experiences from others on the forum - here in December 2012.

Southern Ohio Gun (SOG) (OH) - http://www.southernohiogun.com - faxed w/email followup, online account setup by evening of next day. Good prices, intermittent turn around on email (either fast or 3 days later you get a bounced email saying their inbox is full). Minor annoyances; their website doesn't show shipping costs, so you won't know your final price till UPS delivers to your door. My first phone order, I ended up having to do additional paperwork; that wasn't required the first time I ordered on their website? weird, plus the paperwork they faxed to me specifically said they couldn't ship product to me, until they received a signed FFL by mail, I signed the document faxed it back, and then also sent a response by mail w/a signed FFL, 4 days later my order arrived - obviously they did not wait to get my snail mail response. They send a monthly newsletter catalog, 90%+ of the time, the items in the catalog, they don't have in stock. Low stock items they get, they put on the phone system, not their website; and you will only know the products exist, if you happen to call in - no email notifications or anything.

Tombstone Arms (MO) - [[ Oct1, 2008 - Owner notified will only being doing local business, website, phone, fax - being removed from this list ]].

C&R Firearm vendors I've never had a response from:

Ocala Armory (FL) - http://ocala-armory.com/ - asked if existing documents were transfered from Aztec or if new FFL03 copies had to be sent - via email - no response for 5 weeks now. (was ???? Aztec International (FL) - http://www.aztecguns.com - never received response from mail, or phone calls.)

Pete's Firearms (NY) - http://www.petesdiscountfirearms.com - emailed question about CA legal Yugos on the site, being C&R or not - no response.

Other lists maintained on other sites:

http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5607
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=14&t=168079

-M3

[River Jack]

This should be a sticky! Thanks for posting. Great stuff.

[dustoff31]

Very good info. This mirrors my experience almost exactly. Although I did have better luck with Classic Arms.

[GSequoia]

Yes, sticky for sure!

[ocabj]

Aztec was the place to buy Mosin Nagants from back in 2004. It was about $50 for an M91/30, M38, or M44 and they didn't have any cosmoline on them so it saved you the time and effort in cleaning them.

[tlillard23]

Nice post

[chiefcrash]

Dennis over at Empire Arms is an awesome guy. He's a little pricey, but you when you get your rifle, you *KNOW* where that extra money went.

Great thing about empire arms is if you're looking for something in particular, you can fill out a little form on his website and he'll find one for you...

[eta34]

Just ordered/received a 91/30 from J&G. It took two days from order to receipt of the weapon. It looks good except for the cosmo...just a hazard of the C&R trade. Great communication with them as well.

[mcubed4130]

Added the bad news about Century - above.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=72313

-M3

[eta34]

Also have tried Pete's a couple of times. E-mailed about the Yugo's, no response either.

[mcubed4130]

Added a "family friendly warning to - IO Inc." I think sometimes they think they are in the women's underwear selling business instead of the firearms business.

-M3

[GSequoia]

Originally Posted by mcubed4130

Century International (FL) - http://www.centuryarms.com - mailed per their website, called a couple weeks later, nice guys on the phone, setup my online account right away on the phone. Added me to email lists, and are sending me a catalog. Additional noteworthy items, $75+ order = fixed S&H charge of $12.95, $500+ order = free shipping. UPDATE: Century - Only ships AMMO to CA for FFL03 or FFL01 holders.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=72313

Edited to reflect current policy.

[mcubed4130]

Originally Posted by GSequoia

Edited to reflect current policy.

Main thread edited.

Thanks for bringing this up.

-M3

[lakai]

You can get brownells C&R pricing without faxing or sending your 03 by just choosing the C&R option under preferences.

[lakai]

Heres a .doc file containing a letter with addresses for 62 C&R vendors you can send. Its Approx. 62 pages. I find it very useful.

http://people.cs.vt.edu/wchiang/C&R-FFLs.doc

[wikidklown]

Thanks to this post, I now have discount at brownells and Midwayusa. Also, I'm setup at AIMsurplus. Currently waiting on JGsales and Century.

[mcubed4130]

Originally Posted by wikidklown

Thanks to this post, I now have discount at brownells and Midwayusa. Also, I'm setup at AIMsurplus. Currently waiting on JGsales and Century.

Nice to hear.

Also I just edited the main post; to reflect that Oscala Armory - appears to have taken over operations from Aztec Intl - and... they appear to be just as unresponsive at least to email as Aztec was to mail, phone, etc...

-M3

[MChan67]

Very Nice list...

Classic is a bunch of idiots... when i worked in a gunshop we ordered some stuff from them and half of it did not show up as it was "backordered" and what we did get was either junk or in horrible shape.... one tec 9 we had ordered was covered in crystalized cosmoline.. we sipped the stuff back and after a long battle got a refund and cancelled our account

[Wyseguy]

Great thread! I was just about to let my 03 FFL lapse because I've bought most of the rifles that I could, but forgot about trying to get FFL pricing on ammo and other stuff.

[diginit]

Thank you for all your time and effort. I think I'll stick with brownell's and Midway after I attempt to get my 03. I've heard good things about these dealers. Not so good about most others. And I agree this post should be stickied! James Smith.

[Heatseeker]

Thanks for this thread and the info contained! I just sent my 03 application off to the ATF. My main motivation was to buy some older rifles directly and had I no idea about all the discounts available to 03 holders!

This makes it even better.

Thanks again!

[chico.cm]

[raises hand]: I have a question.
I hope it's not the most retarded thing you read tonight--
I finally received my 03 FFL Saturday and am anxious to start giving away more money. So do I copy the entire original license, front and back, or can I just copy the top half with all the pertinent details?
(It would be nice to get two copies per page.)

Thanks~

[EBR Works]

CMMG will extend dealer pricing to FFL03s. I emailed a signed copy to them and they immediately sent me a dealer price list and order forms. Cool!

[EBR Works]

Originally Posted by chico.cm

[raises hand]: I have a question.
I hope it's not the most retarded thing you read tonight--
I finally received my 03 FFL Saturday and am anxious to start giving away more money. So do I copy the entire original license, front and back, or can I just copy the top half with all the pertinent details?
(It would be nice to get two copies per page.)

Thanks~

I have only copied the front of my FFL03 and sent it out. Welcome to the disease

[chico.cm]

Originally Posted by impactco

I have only copied the front of my FFL03 and sent it out. Welcome to the disease

Gracias.

[NotSoFast]

I just read this on the Tombstone Arms website. I thought I'd let you all know.

Well, the time has come to say goodbye to the web site.
I simply do not have the time the site deserves to keep it going.
We have many other projects in the works (mostly in the computer programming area) and the time needed to get those going will take even more time away from this project. Yes, those other projects are gun related as well.
The site will officialy close October 1st. Only the web site will be affected, so items you may have on layaway will still be here. We are not going out of business or moving . . . Just heading in a new direction with some new ideas.
This wasn't an easy decision to make.
There are literally over 20,000 lines of code on this web site, and a lot of hours put into it. But, it really comes down to deciding whether to invest more time in it, or put that time into something new that I feel will be well worth it in the long run.

Thanks.

M.S. Askins, owner Tombstone Arms.

[mcubed4130]

Originally Posted by NotSoFast

I just read this on the Tombstone Arms website. I thought I'd let you all know.

Tombstone, informed me - they will no longer being doing any online/mail business - planning on doing local only; and asked me to remove contact information for them. Website is due to disappear in Oct 2008.

-M3

[mcubed4130]

Seems like perhaps you are privileged... in some way the rest of us - are not.

-M3

Originally Posted by impactco

CMMG will extend dealer pricing to FFL03s. I emailed a signed copy to them and they immediately sent me a dealer price list and order forms. Cool!

On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 7:18 AM, <Sales@cmmginc.com> wrote:
> Michael,
>
> I am sorry we do not offer a discount to C&R FFL's.
>
> Thank You,
> Garson
>
> --
> CMMG, Inc
> PO Box 369
> Fayette, MO 65248
> (660)248-2293
> (660)248-2290 (FAX)
> Sales@cmmginc.com

[EBR Works]

That is peculiar, I have no explanation for this.

[Mark49]

I buy alota of my guns from J&G sales in Arizona, these people are great, I bought a Mauser and they sent it to the wrong address, they called me when it came back and 4 days later i received the gun along with 60rds of free 8M ammo. Can't beat that

[RudyN]

Got my C&R today. I had one and it expired in February of this year. I had forgotten to renew it on time and sent my new application in about two weeks ago and expected the normal 4-6 week waiting period. Well it was only two weeks, so now I can spend my money sooner.

[RudyN]

I just ordered a K98 from J&G Sales. They are very nice to talk to on the phone. I was able to get one with a very nice bore. Of course there was a charge for the hand pick, but I think it was worth the extra few bucks.

[RudyN]

I received my K98 from J&G Sales. It is very nice and was worth the extra few bucks to get a hand pick. I received a byf44 5XXXXG.

[mcubed4130]

Glad everyone is enjoying the info.

On my end I recently ordered a number of guns from Southern Ohio Gun; all hand pick; and all in very good condition.... easy to work with.

-M3

[Linus]

Does the age limit for a C&R have to be at least 21 years of age? I'm 20 years old and I don't want to go through the process of applying if my application will be rejected.

[freakshow10mm]

Yes, 21yo for any FFL.

Also when dealing with Graf's, Christie is the one who handles the FFL accounts. Ask for her directly.

[5aa12]

Originally Posted by dustoff31

Very good info. This mirrors my experience almost exactly. Although I did have better luck with Classic Arms.

Ditto...they are busy (who isnt these days) but you just have to keep calling. They are very helpful and knowledgable too. NICE RC K98Ks and great prices on them too.

[ZRX61]

I just discovered www.Hunterslodge.com in the latest SGN

[Eroland7]

wow, all my questions answered just like that. Thanks...

[Old_Romad]

Not sure I understand. As FFL03 holders we are forbidden to conduct "business". So, unless these kind folks are selling us parts, accessories, etc., for our C&R collections, it is illegal for us to purchase ANYTHING else. The BATFE rules are very clear on this (just rechecked latest CD from them). "C&R FFL Holders are NOT permitted to engage in ANY types of business dealings related to the type 03 FFL's." That's not MY reading, it is a quite from"their" rules. I like the idea, but not sure how we would explain it if the BATFE agents asked. And several here in my town (FFL01's AND FFL03's) got a visit from them today. A new store opened and they used that as an excuse to "visit" all in the area, while "they were in the neighborhood".