Request for Recipe (.223 77gr HPBT), also info to share

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by ETD1010

Has anyone tried using WIN 748 for the 77 grainers? I keep seeing computer generated results that shows them at the top of the velocity scale with 25 grains worth.

748 is too temp sensetive for serious accuracy use.

[ETD1010]

Well, i wasn't really concerned with serious accuracy. I just kept seeing the numbers and thought I'd give it a try. I have varget, but I had heard that it has inconsistency between batches. doesn't really matter to me what I use, but since I have a bunch of 748 lying around (and I started using it for my 375 H&H loads) I'd just keep using it

[pratchett]

Newbie Q: Can anyone tell me all potential seating depths for 77GR HPBTs?

From what I've read, it seems from 0.005" to 0.025", in 0.005" increments. I guess that would make five viable depth adjustments. Is that overkill? Comments?

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by pratchett

Newbie Q: Can anyone tell me all potential seating depths for 77GR HPBTs?

From what I've read, it seems from 0.005" to 0.025", in 0.005" increments. I guess that would make five viable depth adjustments. Is that overkill? Comments?

You can make the steps as small as you want.
The only limit is your time and budget for components.
If your magazine is long enough to seat the bullet touching the lands, I would just start there.
If your magazine is not long enough, then either seat to magazine length and be done, or if you are single loading, seat to touching.

[bakokid]

just got my components in for 223
ill be loading as soon as i get my hands on a chrony
im goin with 77smk
tac
lc brass
and cci br primers
ill be shooting out of a 16"
any suggestions for a starting point on powder.

[pratchett]

bakokid, I just asked that question in this thread, hoping for consensus.

Might be a good idea to re-ask here, though. Essentially:

Originally Posted by pratchett

In this post, Randall cited QuickLOAD on 77GR SMK HPBTs.

If I read that correctly, QuickLOAD turned up 46 individual powders by 8 different manufacturers. That's a bit intimidating to a new reloader. Could you help me out?

Maybe you could list one or two or three you'd prefer for that bullet, and a consensus might develop here. Thanks in advance for your advice.

[Jicko]

Originally Posted by pratchett
For 77GR SMK HPBTs.

It is ALL DEPENDING on how far you want to go.

Here is my list in order, you can just pick the top 1 (and you will be fine), or you can just go down the list to as many as you want to buy and try... (you can probably stop by the 4th)
- RL15
- Varget
- TAC
- H335
- 4895
- VV N540
- W748

RE: seating depth, are you reloading for AR or for a bolt gun? If you are reloading for an AR, try to just seat it to magazine length or spec length (2.260")

[bakokid]

as far as possible....range adds versitility. ur never gonna say man i wish i couldn shoot so far

[Jicko]

Originally Posted by bakokid

as far as possible....range adds versitility. ur never gonna say man i wish i couldn shoot so far

Far not in terms of distances.... in terms of how much WORK and money and trials you want to put in!

ie. how many powder are you willing to buy, how many combinations are you willing to try....

Some people try a few powders and a few primers.... some people test 10+ powders matrix with multiple primers and cases(w/ differnet headstamp) and different seating depth, and crimp.... and maybe neck tension etc...

[bakokid]

oh gotcha...not that far, 223 isnt even my ammo of choice. but wanna get quality bulk ammo without the match price.. i got tac w/ br primers and 77gr. just lookin for a starting point. and maybe what to expect

[Jicko]

Originally Posted by bakokid

oh gotcha...not that far, 223 isnt even my ammo of choice. but wanna get quality bulk ammo without the match price.. i got tac w/ br primers and 77gr. just lookin for a starting point. and maybe what to expect

TAC will work, I just like RL15 more.
BR4s will serve you well.
For 77gr..... 77gr Nosler HPBT is a great alternative to 77SMK.

[bakokid]

i was lookin 4 thr rl15 but couldn find any in stock a a decent price. it seems to be good for short barrels, has less of a velocity drop than other powder

[BlackRifleFan]

great thread. No pictures?

[3GunFunShooter]

Pictures? Of what? A bullet, case, powder?

[BlackRifleFan]

pictures of groups

I picked up some 77gr SMK and read this whole thread, very nice data!! However, most of the loads are too hot for my taste. I don't believe in beating up a gun for that extra 1/16th inch. Also to get that 1/16th you have to shoot on a bench in ideal conditions

NATO Mk 262 (77gr) ammo is super hot, like 2850 fps out of a 20" barrel. That's about 2720fps out of a 14.5". It appears you guys are trying to match that? Way too hot for my taste. Most reloading spec sheets I have read for the 77gr tops out at 2700 fps. I was reading about lots of defective powder and primers where they were a lot hotter than normal, that added with 100+ degree days, and maybe your barrel chamber is a little tighter, in addition to a well worked hot barrel. I imagine a KB would quite be possible. I am beginning to understand why Mk262 is very rare, even for DSM's in the Military.

My favorite accuracy round is 24.5 gr Varget with 69gr SMK's and LC brass. It's good for just under sub MOA out my LWRC at 100 yards, and just over MOA out of my Noveske. My 14.5" Noveske pushes this load 2620 fps, and my 16" LWRC is about 20fps faster than that. At 600 yards, I am only half a human lower than what my ACOG BDC shows (M855 ammo out of 14.5" barrel). Best of all it does not beat up my brass. I can't see 77gr being more accurate than 69gr at distances under 600 yards. Only reason I see to go to 77gr is to be supersonic past 700 yards. However to me the .223 is a 500 yard gun, and 600 at most.

Dam I just talked myself out of 77grainers, but too late. Got 300 on the way in bound.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by BlackRifleFan

NATO Mk 262 (77gr) ammo is super hot, like 2850 fps out of a 20" barrel. That's about 2720fps out of a 14.5". It appears you guys are trying to match that?

Yes.

[ocabj]

Originally Posted by BlackRifleFan

pictures of groups

I picked up some 77gr SMK and read this whole thread, very nice data!! However, most of the loads are too hot for my taste. I don't believe in beating up a gun for that extra 1/16th inch. Also to get that 1/16th you have to shoot on a bench in ideal conditions

NATO Mk 262 (77gr) ammo is super hot, like 2850 fps out of a 20" barrel. That's about 2720fps out of a 14.5". It appears you guys are trying to match that? Way too hot for my taste. Most reloading spec sheets I have read for the 77gr tops out at 2700 fps. I was reading about lots of defective powder and primers where they were a lot hotter than normal, that added with 100+ degree days, and maybe your barrel chamber is a little tighter, in addition to a well worked hot barrel. I imagine a KB would quite be possible. I am beginning to understand why Mk262 is very rare, even for DSM's in the Military.

My favorite accuracy round is 24.5 gr Varget with 69gr SMK's and LC brass. It's good for just under sub MOA out my LWRC at 100 yards, and just over MOA out of my Noveske. My 14.5" Noveske pushes this load 2620 fps, and my 16" LWRC is about 20fps faster than that. At 600 yards, I am only half a human lower than what my ACOG BDC shows (M855 ammo out of 14.5" barrel). Best of all it does not beat up my brass. I can't see 77gr being more accurate than 69gr at distances under 600 yards. Only reason I see to go to 77gr is to be supersonic past 700 yards. However to me the .223 is a 500 yard gun, and 600 at most.

Dam I just talked myself out of 77grainers, but too late. Got 300 on the way in bound.

Yes, this is exactly what I've been trying to tell people. A few years ago I tried to duplicate MK262 just to see what it would take. I was able to get it as I had posted prior, using 25.3gr Varget, 77gr SMK, LC brass, with a Winchester SR primer. Accuracy was decent (1" at 100 yards), but not the greatest. But that load is hotter than it needs to be. In my opinion, MK262 as it was originally spec'ed, is bordering at the top end of the accuracy pulse and should be dialed back in speed for better accuracy.

I think the key thing with MK262 velocities is that it's supersonic to 600 yards with the M4 (14.7" barrel). If you're running a 20" barrel, there's really no need to hot rod a 77gr that much. My 200/300 yard load for High Power matches is 77gr Lapua, 24.0gr RL15, LC brass, and a Wolf SRM (or CCI BR4) primer. I haven't clocked it, but I'd be surprised if that is moving more than 2750fps out of a Wylde chamber 20" 1:7 twist SS White Oak barrel.

For 600 yards I'm still using Berger 80gr VLDs with 24.0gr RL15, Lapua brass, and a Wolf SRM (or CCI BR4). I think those are moving 2750fps out of the 20" 1:7.

You might want to reconsider the 77gr if you want improved wind drift performance at short range (200-400 yards). You should look at the Hornady 75gr BTHP. It's a good bullet and is less expensive than the 77gr BTHP offerings by Sierra, Nosler, Berger, Lapua, etc.

[BlackRifleFan]

24.5 gr of Varget with 69 gr SMK will get you 2560 (mean) fps out of a 14.5" barrel, which means it will stay super sonic all the way out to 600 yards.

Speaking of supersonic, why is it so important we stay supersonic? What happens at this point other than the sonic boom?

[bakokid]

Originally Posted by BlackRifleFan

24.5 gr of Varget with 69 gr SMK will get you 2560 (mean) fps out of a 14.5" barrel, which means it will stay super sonic all the way out to 600 yards.

Speaking of supersonic, why is it so important we stay supersonic? What happens at this point other than the sonic boom?

id like to know as well, all iv ever heard is that the bullet does weird things once it drops below supersonic

[BlackRifleFan]

Originally Posted by bakokid

id like to know as well, all iv ever heard is that the bullet does weird things once it drops below supersonic

Yeah I hear all these sniper guys say "stay supersonic" but heck 45 ACP is subsonic as soon as it leaves the barrel.

I read a pellet gun forum once and they were saying you don't want the pellet gun to go supersonic for accuracy, they were saying ideal accuracy for a pellet gun is about 900 fps.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by BlackRifleFan

why is it so important we stay supersonic? What happens at this point other than the sonic boom?

No good things can come of the bullet going subsonic before the target.
The bullet gets disturbed, possibly begins tumbling and may even end up flying backwards.
Any of these are really bad for the precision, causing groups to open up radically, if the bullets even strike the target at all.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by BlackRifleFan

Yeah I hear all these sniper guys say "stay supersonic" but heck 45 ACP is subsonic as soon as it leaves the barrel.

It's the transistion that causes the problem.
If you get the bullet supersonic within the barrel, it's still going to travel where it's aimed.
When the bullet transistions back through is what causes the problem.
It the bullet never even goes supersonic, that's fine too.
You won't have to worry about it ever transitioning the sound barrier as the sound wave will always travel ahead of the bullet.

[BlackRifleFan]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

It's the transistion that causes the problem.
If you get the bullet supersonic within the barrel, it's still going to travel where it's aimed.
When the bullet transistions back through is what causes the problem.
It the bullet never even goes supersonic, that's fine too.
You won't have to worry about it ever transitioning the sound barrier as the sound wave will always travel ahead of the bullet.

Thanks. Confirmed as I had time to look it up. Going transonic to supersonic or vice versa causes all kinds of instability problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_barrier

[Peter W Bush]

Vihtavuori N150 102.9 24.5 1.59 2692 100.0 55000 11404 0.958 ! Near Maximum !

Nice to see a .223 recipe for V150. I've got some laying around and want to try and push some 77gr SMKs with it. Can you recommend a starting load?

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by Peter W Bush

Nice to see a .223 recipe for V150. I've got some laying around and want to try and push some 77gr SMKs with it. Can you recommend a starting load?

Appearantly the bulk density figures were wrong in the old quickload powder data file because that same 24.5gr load now shows up as 118% loading density.

I don't think you can get enough N150 into a case to make decent velocity with it.

[Peter W Bush]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Appearantly the bulk density figures were wrong in the old quickload powder data file because that same 24.5gr load now shows up as 118% loading density.

I don't think you can get enough N150 into a case to make decent velocity with it.

I remember reading that a while back but your chart gave me some hope lol. I think I'll just stick to trying out varget and ramshot.

[Antihero47]

Am I crazy for thinking about getting a 77g SMK 9377 out to 1k with a 20" 1:8 tube LC06 and BLC2?

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by Antihero47

Am I crazy for thinking about getting a 77g SMK 9377 out to 1k with a 20" 1:8 tube LC06 and BLC2?

Yes, you are crazy if you want to do that with mag length rounds.
Shoot 80's at 2.45" and single load.

[Antihero47]

So.. go with 8lb BLC2 and 77g SMK, or H335 and 80g SMK?

I've never shot H335 before. Is this temp stable?

EDIT:

Found out that was a negative. Thinking about going H322 as this is a extreme powder from Hodgdon and should be temp stable. It also allows for a faster burn rate and low case capacity without too much pressure. I'm assuming this will allow me to push it a little harder and act a little harder in LC cases.

[CavTrooper]

Ran some 77gr Noslers through my 1-8 20" Sabre Defense barrel yeserday using reloader 15. 24.2gr gave me a single ragged hole @ 100Y but when pushed to 300 was wholelly unimpressive. Thinking i need to push these a bit hotter, no pressure signs so far and from what im seeing the "max" loads are very conservative.

Intersting seeing the groups change as i progressed in charge weight. At the lower end, was having verticle groups, when I hit 24.2 the groups tighted up dramatically but were more inclined to be horizontal.

Think i had some scope issues when I switched my targets out to 300Y so im not giving up on the 24.2 just yet, just gonna see what pushing them a bit hotter will do.

[Antihero47]

Originally Posted by CavTrooper

Ran some 77gr Noslers through my 1-8 20" Sabre Defense barrel yeserday using reloader 15. 24.2gr gave me a single ragged hole @ 100Y but when pushed to 300 was wholelly unimpressive. Thinking i need to push these a bit hotter, no pressure signs so far and from what im seeing the "max" loads are very conservative.

Intersting seeing the groups change as i progressed in charge weight. At the lower end, was having verticle groups, when I hit 24.2 the groups tighted up dramatically but were more inclined to be horizontal.

Think i had some scope issues when I switched my targets out to 300Y so im not giving up on the 24.2 just yet, just gonna see what pushing them a bit hotter will do.

Do you go out to Lytle Creek to test your loads? I just purchased 80gr SMK's, 8lbs of Varget, Hornady Ogive guage, Forster ultra micrometer seater and a chronograph. Looking to use my AR with 1:8 HB 223 wylde with Buckmaster 4.5-14 and 30 MOA base to 1k. I may be totally retarded for trying to do this with .223 and not keeping my .308

[bakokid]

Originally Posted by Antihero47

Am I crazy for thinking about getting a 77g SMK 9377 out to 1k with a 20" 1:8 tube LC06 and BLC2?

the army marksman unit does it

[phish]

Originally Posted by bakokid

the army marksman unit does it

bzzzt, try again

on another note, I shot next to a Navy dude in Coalinga who used the much vaunted Mk 262 ammo. He told me he pulled a bullet and found that it uses ball powder, he had no idea what it could be derived from. just some food for thought

[xrMike]

Originally Posted by phish

on another note, I shot next to a Navy dude in Coalinga who used the much vaunted Mk 262 ammo. He told me he pulled a bullet and found that it uses ball powder, he had no idea what it could be derived from. just some food for thought

There are threads in other gun forums where a few people are guessing out loud (after doing load workup to create ammo with similar characteristics to MK262) that it's Ramshot TAC, or some close blend of it.

[new2mud]

I think it would be pretty hard to keep a .224 bullet supersonic to 1000 yards without single-loading longer (non AR mag-length), heavier bullets (>80 grains).

[Bolt2Bounce]

sorry guys, I've been out of the loop for a long time, the question was asked about wwc846 load data with 69 and 80 gr I've never loaded 80 gr bullets in the 223. I usually use H4895 for the 69 gr stuff.. I may have done a few tests but with it but I switched over to 75 and 77 gr bullets for High power and I'm out of 844 and 846 these days (I should have bought more of it) so I mostly run, RL-15 varget and 4895 4064 these days.. BTW the MK262 may be factory loaded with 846 and or 844 ball powders.. B2B

[Peter W Bush]

Well I got my hands on some Varget, LC and Black Hills match brass, Sierra 77gr BTHP with cannelure and some real Mk262 Mod 1. Now I just need to get my hands on a chronograph and try a few different recipes.

[3GunFunShooter]

Has any one tried the IMR 8208 XBR with 69 or 77 SMK?
Read the write up in the Hodgdon Reloading mag. Looks good but just wanted to check. Going to be using an 18" JP 1/8 twist. Looking for a 300-400 yard load that is close to the Black Hills 77 gr Match ammo which shot out of my gun at 2805 FPS. Drop was perfect with my Burris XTR BDC at 300 yds. 1.25" group at 300. When I win the lottery I'll shoot factory.

[swerv512]

anyone have any 77SMK loads for IMR 4064 out to 600yd (magazine length)?

[danpass]

Originally Posted by 3GunFunShooter

Has any one tried the IMR 8208 XBR with 69 or 77 SMK?
Read the write up in the Hodgdon Reloading mag. Looks good but just wanted to check. Going to be using an 18" JP 1/8 twist. Looking for a 300-400 yard load that is close to the Black Hills 77 gr Match ammo which shot out of my gun at 2805 FPS. Drop was perfect with my Burris XTR BDC at 300 yds. 1.25" group at 300. When I win the lottery I'll shoot factory.

I've been shooting 77SMK out to 600:

77 SMK
LC case
23 grn XBR 8208
Wolf SRM primer

2.245 COL

RRA NM, 20in, 1/8, SS, Wylde chamber


No chrono data though