BODY ARMOR: The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly

[sirgrumps]

Here is another thing I have learned trying to pick plates and a carrier.

Plate thickness varies, a lot, especially if one does not choose a steel plate, then most plates require anti-spall guards, then add a trauma pad/plate backer, that is a lot of thickness.

And most plate carriers will not accommodate all those combined thickness. I may have to either sell my LBT PC, which will accommodate up to 1" total plat thickness or go with steel, and it's weight penalty, to avoid buying another PC.

[crufflers]

Originally Posted by sirgrumps

And most plate carriers will not accommodate all those combined thickness. I may have to either sell my LBT PC, which will accommodate up to 1" total plat thickness or go with steel, and it's weight penalty, to avoid buying another PC.

A lot of times you can work the plates into the carriers... BOTACH Longfri level IV composite plates are on the thicker side but no problem getting those into Med Slicksters (tight AF honestly and they do not just slide in - makes for a perfect stable fit)... I have an LBT First Responder and no problem sliding in IIIA+ Rigid plates. I just tried a level IV front plate in the LBT and it goes in easier than into a Slickster. LBT has a really tight hook and loop under panel and a inside pocket retention strap makes the fit tight enough even with the IIIA+

The IIIA+ hard plates are about half the thickness of the IV. YMMV.

Spall guards are not thick, but why do you think you need them with modern UHMWPE and PE+Ceramic plates that catch the bullets rather than liquify and splatter them?

[sirgrumps]

Originally Posted by crufflers

Spall guards are not thick, but why do you think you need them with modern UHMWPE and PE+Ceramic plates that catch the bullets rather than liquify and splatter them?

Based on some of Buffman's testing, some of the PE/Ceramic plates do seem they may need a spall guard, but many of those type of plates, based on the deformation, backing plates seem warranted.

[crufflers]

Originally Posted by sirgrumps

Based on some of Buffman's testing, some of the PE/Ceramic plates do seem they may need a spall guard, but many of those type of plates, based on the deformation, backing plates seem warranted.

Spall from steel is crazy. I honestly haven't thought too much about backers with Level IV, but they would be hard or impossible to get into a Slickster for sure. IIIA deformation is probably painful AF.

Would be interesting to see SPALL from steel with SPALL guards vs COMPOSITE with nothing. I would bet COMPOSITE has very little compared to Steel with spall guards. I been wrong before.

It seems like the projectiles stopped inside the composite, ceramic, PE plate types would not benefit from thin aramid fiber spall blocker sheets that work on the surface of steel. With steel the projectile liquifies and splashes out to the sides... wouldn't a spall sheet on a composite plate get punched through like paper and then the bullet would be caught in the plate as usual?

[Buffman]

Composite plates given non edge hits don't frag out, unless you put a LOT of energy into the plate and separate the layers. The ceramic part of the plates do fragment, but those fragments velocities are A LOT lower than the frags coming from steel. Some ceramic plates are now incorporating foam, kevlar and or PE in front of the ceramic layer, and it greatly helps. The Tactical Scorpion Gear was a top performer for frag control.

[crufflers]

Originally Posted by Buffman

Composite plates given non edge hits don't frag out, unless you put a LOT of energy into the plate and separate the layers. The ceramic part of the plates do fragment, but those fragments velocities are A LOT lower than the frags coming from steel. Some ceramic plates are now incorporating foam, kevlar and or PE in front of the ceramic layer, and it greatly helps. The Tactical Scorpion Gear was a top performer for frag control.

That's great info. What do you think about using the flexible IIIA or IIIA+ armor on top of composite? Ineffective overkill?

What about on top of steel replacing a traditional $50 thin spall guard with a $60 IIIA piece? I think the IIIA+ special threat armor is about $80 if we are talking Longfri...

In general what are your thoughts on stacking armor assuming they even fit into a carrier that way. Obviously doesn't make much sense if it ends up being heavier than a Level IV Composite plate at 5.5 - 6 pounds for one side.

[Buffman]

I feel if anything gets put in front of it, It needs a way to encapsulate the frags. if a IIIA panel was "sleeve" like it would be effective. Just placing it in front I don't think will aid much.

[crufflers]

My old spall guards for my steel sets are thin AF compared to IIIA so I figured they may catch frags sideways though the PE… in my mind that’s easier to picture than frags getting stopped by a few layers of aramid… a test would be pretty good video for a popular YouTube channel

[sirgrumps]

Originally Posted by Buffman

...... The Tactical Scorpion Gear was a top performer for frag control.

Based on your testing, the results, and your comment, I am leaning toward getting the TSG plates. The deformation from your testing makes me think adding a backing pad. I am worried a bit about the combined thickness of the plate and pad fitting my carrier.

[Buffman]

What carrier are you wanting to use?

[Buffman]

Generic Import PE

[tacticalcity]

I'm tempted to pick up a couple of these plates. Not exactly cheap..but light. The problem with most armor is the weight. They weight as much as a tank. These are significantly lighter than most for their rating.

https://www.shotstop.net/products/du...39721047949504

[sirgrumps]

Originally Posted by Buffman

What carrier are you wanting to use?

LBT-6094 G3.

[Buffman]

Originally Posted by tacticalcity

I'm tempted to pick up a couple of these plates. Not exactly cheap..but light. The problem with most armor is the weight. They weight as much as a tank. These are significantly lighter than most for their rating.

https://www.shotstop.net/products/du...39721047949504

These are only an SRT plate for 5.56. They won't rate a level III for M80 ball protection. You're essentially paying more for less ceramic coverage because they don't use edge to edge strike face. The multi-curve is hexagon tiles, and the single curve model is rectangular/square. The ceramic is SiC and did do a good job of stopping all conventional 5.56 threats.

You can also get them cheaper from one of their resellers if they still float your boat. I believe even "Buffman" is an additional 10% off.
https://www.thearmorshop.com/product...39637806907543

[conover]

Tagged

[xrMike]

Originally Posted by sirgrumps

LGBT 3.

That thounds abtholutely FABulouth!

[tacticalcity]

Originally Posted by Buffman

These are only an SRT plate for 5.56. They won't rate a level III for M80 ball protection. You're essentially paying more for less ceramic coverage because they don't use edge to edge strike face. The multi-curve is hexagon tiles, and the single curve model is rectangular/square. The ceramic is SiC and did do a good job of stopping all conventional 5.56 threats.

You can also get them cheaper from one of their resellers if they still float your boat. I believe even "Buffman" is an additional 10% off.
https://www.thearmorshop.com/product...39637806907543

What I like about these the most is their weight. If I have to wear a steel plate I am gonna be moving so slow and in so much pain I will make an easy target.

They advertise it as being able to stop M80 ball. So the statement above has me a little confused. Here is the pic that says that https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/05...59561652206141

I assume it will stop all handgun and shotgun ammo as well? Is that what they mean by "all lesser threats?"

Would their other plates be a more effective option for handgun and shotgun rounds? If so which is better the III-PS or the III-PA?

[PogoJack]

I have some steel AR500 "Level III+" plates and some NIJ IIIA soft body armor plates, and a slick plate carrier, and was thinking of making a car trunk plate carrier for in casies. Very limited scenario, no time to go back home for real plate carrier and need to get my kids or wife out of some place is all I can really think. Worst case scenario would be facing 5.56.

I have heard that steel is a spall death trap that will make me bleed out if I get hit.

I know I should probably get some Level IV Hescos and replace every 6 months, but I don't have that kind of budget.

So what should I do with my limited budget? Spray some bed liner on the back of the AR500s and then stick them in together?

What order should they go into the carrier to maximize efficacy? I have 1/4 in trauma pad that could fit inside with one of each kind of plate as well.

Should it be Level IIIA to the outside and the III+ on the inside or vice versa?

Sorry for stupid questions.

[sirgrumps]

Originally Posted by xrMike

That thounds abtholutely FABulouth!

Ok that's funny!!

It's a LBT-6094 G3v2

[xrMike]

Originally Posted by sirgrumps

Ok that's funny!!

It's a LBT-6094 G3v2

Right on. You have a healthy, confident sense of humor and are not offended easily. I would shoot with you, or buy you a round or two in real-time, or even both simultaneously.

Have a great weekend.

[sirgrumps]

Originally Posted by PogoJack

I have some steel AR500 "Level III+" plates and some NIJ IIIA soft body armor plates, and a slick plate carrier, and was thinking of making a car trunk plate carrier for in casies. Very limited scenario, no time to go back home for real plate carrier and need to get my kids or wife out of some place is all I can really think. Worst case scenario would be facing 5.56.

I have heard that steel is a spall death trap that will make me bleed out if I get hit.

.................

....................

What order should they go into the carrier to maximize efficacy? I have 1/4 in trauma pad that could fit inside with one of each kind of plate as well.

Should it be Level IIIA to the outside and the III+ on the inside or vice versa?

Sorry for stupid questions.

As I understand it, based on reading about 50% of this thread, heat (sitting in a hot car) is the #1 killer of the durability of UWHMPE. So I agree with you that keeping steel III+ plates in the trunk of your car make a lot of sense. You don't have to worry about hot car weakening the steel, even over time.

Getting a dedicated spall guard to place over the plate is the way to "capture" the fragments of the round after it collide with your steel plate. But those plate will deform from the impact. So placing a soft armor behind your steel makes a lot of sense. That will spread the deformation load over a large area and help reduce the trauma of the deformation impact. I don't know (or think) a backing pad will be needed behind the soft armor. That soft plate will also help capture anything that manages to penetrate the hard armor. But since you already have a backing plate, might as well use it.

So the layers, as I understand it, should be outer carrier, Spall guard (usually a bag, so the AR500 would go inside of the spall guard), the AR500, Soft armor, backing plate, inner carrier: assuming your PC can hold all these items.

I am also of the opinion that your carrier, in combo with a spall guard, should eliminate an overwhelming majority of the fragmentation of the round on your steel plate.

Many companies sell spall guards. If you look above in this thread, I asked for sources of spall guards and I think 3 links were listed.

Also, no such thing as dumb questions, as most of use don't work daily with these items, have no experience to rely on, and weren't in the military.

[PogoJack]

Thank you, Sir Grumps, for the advice. I’m ordering some Spall guard for the metal armor from Tactical Scorpion Gear, one of the links above. I have level IV ceramic plates at home, but definitely a car emergency plate for the trunk in hot Arizona summers is what I need.

[Buffman]

Originally Posted by PogoJack

I know I should probably get some Level IV Hescos and replace every 6 months, but I don't have that kind of budget.

.

You don't replace armor every 6 months. Even the department 5 yr rotation is a little over the top for rigid armor. Sure aramid and PE soft that's on you all DAY, constantly bending and flexing, but rigid armor, well taken care of will last easily 10-15+ yrs.

[Buffman]

Originally Posted by tacticalcity

What I like about these the most is their weight. If I have to wear a steel plate I am gonna be moving so slow and in so much pain I will make an easy target.

They advertise it as being able to stop M80 ball. So the statement above has me a little confused. Here is the pic that says that https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/05...59561652206141

I assume it will stop all handgun and shotgun ammo as well? Is that what they mean by "all lesser threats?"

Would their other plates be a more effective option for handgun and shotgun rounds? If so which is better the III-PS or the III-PA?

They used to have an asterisk on that M80 ball infographic to state 1-2 hits. The GT2 is a SRT plate for 5.56 threats. If you look at the test reports, they're seeing 38mm of backface with 5.56 threats. That's approaching the 44mm limit.

Their other level III offerings are pure PE plates and would handle .308 better, but would fail against M855. Shotguns wouldn't be a concern with level III, nor would 95+% of all handgun threats.

When you get into really thin plates you push the limits of stopping higher energy rounds. Here is the test of the GT2

[Buffman]

More ShotStop action today This is their CPL listed Level III (+). The + is for M193 protection NOT M855:

[Big Chudungus]

Preliminary review of my new Hardwire brand Pull up proof clipboard. Edges are a rather sharp 90ﾟ and I think I'm going to try to stand down to break the edge a little bit hopefully that won't release a lot of nasty particles or create some other problem. I worked with level 2 bulletproofing in thing in building construction and it was pretty nasty to work with but not that bad watch is off easy without residue I'm like fiberglass a rock wool. My understanding is that 1 side was like a white dry erase board, However both sides have the jungle green plant paint.both sides also have fine grain not glass smooth, and surface is sort of sticky/tasty. Board is about 1/4" and completely stiff and flat and bit oversized so should be fine for drafting unlike most clip boards. Clip is nice basic sturdy metal held by 2 brass rivets that are near flush on back (drafting nice to have just flat).

Might remove clip and/or buy 2nd board.

[PogoJack]

I have seen the spall guard tests on AR500 and it looks like with 55gr 5.56, there will be enough spall to cut your jugular if you are unlucky.

I got some spall guards now. My plates came without the factory build up. Would it make any sense to put a few coats of bed liner on it?

This is for my trunk rig that has to endure several Arizona summers.

[crufflers]

Originally Posted by PogoJack

I got some spall guards now. My plates came without the factory build up. Would it make any sense to put a few coats of bed liner on it?

Isn't most build up coating just bed liner or similar like LINE-X? Even Duct tape does something.

[PogoJack]

Originally Posted by crufflers

Isn't most build up coating just bed liner or similar like LINE-X? Even Duct tape does something.

Wow thank you for sharing. I can’t believe my eyes.

[ShredLA]

I have a serbian production Yugo Zastava npap to trade if anyone has a set of medium multi curve composite plates, ideally level 4
Located in the (909)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[crufflers]

Originally Posted by PogoJack

Wow thank you for sharing. I can’t believe my eyes.

Right? Imagine what flexible Level IIIA duct taped or epoxied to a plate would do.

Nylon sleeves with multiple aramid layers just inserted on top of a steel plate really are more effective than that would be? Not that people are still messing with steel.

[Buffman]

speaking of IIIA, some HWIN today

[sirgrumps]

Originally Posted by Buffman

These have been requested quite a bit, and we finally were able to get one for testing.
https://tacticalscorpiongear.com/tac...x12-plate.html "armorking" is 20% off if you want one of them.
I like what TSG is doing with the construction of this plate. The hexagon tiles are proving to be a good thing for 5.56 threats, but .30 cal past M80 ball seems to be their limit.

I placed an order for these plates on 6-4-22.
Their website stated up to a 20 business day to fulfill orders.
I got the confirmation of shipment order today.

40 business days after the order

Not to happy about this.

[xrMike]

Originally Posted by sirgrumps

I placed an order for these plates on 6-4-22.
Their website stated up to a 20 business day to fulfill orders.
I got the confirmation of shipment order today.

40 business days after the order

Not to happy about this.

So, you ordered 6/4/22 and now the company tells you: "You will get your order 20 days later than expected..."

Do you really think you will receive a center of mass hit during those 20 days? During a particular instant in time when you are actually wearing those plates? When you are not sleeping? Or taking a ****? Or feeding your kids? Or making love to your girlfriend or wife?

99.9% of all Calguns "operators" who order plates will put those plates in a closet, or their garage, or the trunk of their car, for some imaginary day or event that will likely never happen...

20 days is nothing to be outraged about.

Instead, be thankful you can even afford the plates in the 1st place. You are doing something right. You are better off (and smarter!) than 90% of the general population...

No hate here, just tough love my friend.

Sit back, wait, and be happy when you get them.

[Big Chudungus]

What do you think of this helmet?https://www.ebay.com/itm/23463529152...8AAOSwzg5i3asQ
What does the "in process of converting" mean and is that legit and good? Does that mostly only matter for IEDs not 9mm?

I'm thinking of getting it or similar for Armed Guard duty. Doubt I'd be wearing it all day/night, more like just when I make a round late at night or go investigate something.

What about the similar but "new" for about $150. Does mean "made in China"?

Don't see any of those in XL (which my melon certainly is).

[sirgrumps]

Originally Posted by xrMike

So, you ordered 6/4/22 and now the company tells you: "You will get your order 20 days later than expected..."

Do you really think you will receive a center of mass hit during those 20 days? During a particular instant in time when you are actually wearing those plates? When you are not sleeping? Or taking a ****? Or feeding your kids? Or making love to your girlfriend or wife?

99.9% of all Calguns "operators" who order plates will put those plates in a closet, or their garage, or the trunk of their car, for some imaginary day or event that will likely never happen...

20 days is nothing to be outraged about.

Instead, be thankful you can even afford the plates in the 1st place. You are doing something right. You are better off (and smarter!) than 90% of the general population...

No hate here, just tough love my friend.

Sit back, wait, and be happy when you get them.

I am annoyed that I was charged and paid for the item, BEFORE shipment.
My previous experience is that they charge your card after shipment, not before production.

[xrMike]

Originally Posted by sirgrumps

I am annoyed that I was charged and paid for the item, BEFORE shipment.
My previous experience is that they charge your card after shipment, not before production.

Ahhhh, if you said that, I did not catch it, that is understandable then. I hate it when companies do that also. Seems unethical to me. They are in effect, borrowing your money, free of charge.

[sirgrumps]

Originally Posted by Buffman

These have been requested quite a bit, and we finally were able to get one for testing.
https://tacticalscorpiongear.com/tac...x12-plate.html "armorking" is 20% off if you want one of them.
I like what TSG is doing with the construction of this plate. The hexagon tiles are proving to be a good thing for 5.56 threats, but .30 cal past M80 ball seems to be their limit.

Hey Buffman,

How were these plates packaged when they were sent to you?
I just received mine, and the plates were not packed in a box.

Is this normal?

Thx

[Buffman]

Originally Posted by sirgrumps

Hey Buffman,

How were these plates packaged when they were sent to you?
I just received mine, and the plates were not packed in a box.

Is this normal?

Thx

It's been awhille. How were yours packaged? I think mine was in a box..

[Buffman]

I'm not sure how people feel about Tactical SH&T. They seem to have 5+yr ago Botach CS/fullfillment timelines, but the few orders I have placed with them recently I have gotten albeit slow. These are Chase Tactical 4S17M's, which are rebranded Highcom. 7.2lb, mulit-curve, and 10x12. At $179 each, that's a good weight savings over the RMA 1155.

Highcom (Chase Tactical) 4S17M