Have an Old Winchester?

[Moving Chicane]

Originally Posted by TRAP55

1. Model 1894 (.30-30) S/N: 41,877 was made 1898, with 20,907 made that year.

2. Model 1894 (.30-30) S/N: 1,542,024 was made late 1948, with 147,934 made that year.

Thank you so much; appreciate it!

[steamerjames]

I have read both books by John Cambell on the single shot, they both state that their are no records after number 109999.Is this true or not.?I'm just curious to see if these books are now out of date.I do not own one of these at present, but am looking for something to shoot indoors offhand,as i cant take the heat in summer any more around here.Sort of a semi-schuetzen.

[TRAP55]

James, if you're referring to the Model 1885 single shot, the last one made was serial# 140,000 in 1920, and I have a copy of the records from 1885 to 1920.

[steamerjames]

I do tend to ramble, but i guess John Cambell was incorrect, that recordes do exist for the serial numbers 109999 thru 140000? He said that drawings and records would turn up sooner or later,due to estates turning over.So i guess he was both right and wrong.

[TRAP55]

James, if you read my first post on this thread, it will explain how, why, and where all this new info is coming out. Let me know when you're ready to get that 1885, I'll hook you up with Bert.
I've been using original mold cast bullets over Trail Boss powder in my 1885 .32-40, it would make a great indoor range load. No recoil, sub sonic, more accurate than BP, and no BP mess to clean up.

[flyfishr]

Hi Trap
I inherited a model 94 30wcf serial #993965
What info do you have for this one? my research came up with Oct 1929 If I remember correctly. Also how do you go about getting PR records if they are available?
Thanks for taking the time to help all of us out.

[rb765]

Thanks for doing this Trap. I have posted this on several other posts along with the story, but here it goes. About 20 years ago, my dad came home from a trip to Mexico with an old Winchester '94 that his dad gave him. The rear stock was rotten beyond repair and it was in pretty rough shape. My dad removed the rear stock hoping to find a replacement and proceeded to loose it and the butt plate. After he passed, I inherited it. About last year, after joining the forum, I asked my mom for a little more information about the gun. She replied that it was not my grandfathers, but his brother Emilio and he some high ranking officer in the army. She also said he used it in one of the wars in Mexico, but did not have any other information. I then googled Emilio Barrios and found out he was a Colonel in the revolutionary army and he lead the charge for removing the tyrannical government from the home town where my father was from (Jerez, Zac) during the Cristero War. Needless to say, i was very stoked about the historical link this gun has, but since everyone that had first hand knowledge of my dad's acquisition has passed, there is no way for me to prove the gun's provenance.



But since it still had a great story, I would love to restore it to it's former glory, but it looks like I might have to find a sacrificial gun to rob it of it's stock. Right now, it is not very high on my priority list and everything I find locally has the wrong stock, but one day, I will find the correct stock and it will be complete as a wall hanger. I do have some family members that are attempting to find photos of my great uncle with the rifle, but I'm not holding my breath. I would love any information I can get on this gun. Thanks again.

[M. D. Van Norman]

Why not put this family heirloom back into service as a working rifle?

[rb765]

The rifling looks good enough to be a shooter, but since I am the only one on my wifes side of the family that is into firearms, I am inheriting (actually my son is) most of the guns from her family that have past. Right now, we just haev my son's great uncle Rays 1950's '94, my son's great, great, grandfather's pump 22 (have a picture of him holding it after he used it to put down a pig for butchering during the depression in Oklahoma) and a slew of others. I really think that I would rather post it with a plaque describing it's history than use it as a shooter, just because we have a few others that fill the niche that this one would serve.

[TRAP55]

Originally Posted by flyfishr

Hi Trap
I inherited a model 94 30wcf serial #993965
What info do you have for this one? my research came up with Oct 1929 If I remember correctly. Also how do you go about getting PR records if they are available?
Thanks for taking the time to help all of us out.

Made late 1926, with 10,790 made that year.
The only place the info I have is available, is in Larry and Bert's last book, titled The Red Book of Winchester Values, 2nd Edition, 2011, and I believe it's sold out.
Last I talked to Bert, a newer updated version was supposed to be in print by now, and he should be done with his book, a comprehensive study on the 1885 Winchester. If he got them into print on time, he should have copies for sale at the Reno Show in Nov., and Larry should have one or both for sale on the GB auctions.
I need to give him a call and yank his chain anyhow, so I'll ask about the books and post the info where they can be ordered direct in my original post.
If you need info to get a Cody letter on your gun, I'll post the info there too as soon as I dig it out.

[TRAP55]

rb765, Your saddle ring carbine was made in late 1914, with 76,976 made that year.
A Cody Letter (if available) will tell where it was delivered (hardware store, ranch, post office, etc), rarely to who. It's a good place to start though, sometimes it will show if the rifle was shipped in a group of serial numbers too. If it does, it's a good place to establish bonafides with other guns.
That one can be made whole again pretty easy. My boys live in Fresno, so I'm back and forth between there and Dixon all the time. If you want help tracking down parts, and bringing it back to life, let me know, be glad to help.
Edit to add:

grandfather's pump 22

Make and model?

[freonr22]

Such an awesome service provided by you. Thank you!

[flyfishr]

Originally Posted by TRAP55

Made late 1926, with 10,790 made that year.
The only place the info I have is available, is in Larry and Bert's last book, titled The Red Book of Winchester Values, 2nd Edition, 2011, and I believe it's sold out.
Last I talked to Bert, a newer updated version was supposed to be in print by now, and he should be done with his book, a comprehensive study on the 1885 Winchester. If he got them into print on time, he should have copies for sale at the Reno Show in Nov., and Larry should have one or both for sale on the GB auctions.
I need to give him a call and yank his chain anyhow, so I'll ask about the books and post the info where they can be ordered direct in my original post.
If you need info to get a Cody letter on your gun, I'll post the info there too as soon as I dig it out.

I remember now that it was Nov. 1926 that I found so your info confirms that. I also have a remington 22 pump that was made in Oct of 26 both were my grandfathers.

[rb765]

Sorry it took so lon to get back to you. The pump is at my father in laws so it is kind of a pain to get to. It is a Remington Model 121. Not sure of the serial number but that will be forthcoming.

BTW, I just grabbed the other '94 from him (my son's great uncle Rae). It says it's a model 64 ser 201255 in 30-30 win with a 24" round bbl, no SR, but rounded buttstock. Bluing is gone on the receiver and magazine, but 80% or better on the barrel. The gun was left in the truck of a 55 chevy for many years so the finish melted on it. I just picked up some stripper and will be refinishing it probably this week.

[TRAP55]

rb, there was less than 67,000 Model 64's made, and they do bring a premium. I would have it evaluated by someone like Bert before I touched it, if I were you.
BTW, it was made in late 1903.

[rb765]

Thanks for that info. Can you send me information on how to get a hold of Mr Hartman?

[TRAP55]

RB,
Bert Hartman at Win1885@msn.com
Make sure "WINCHESTER" is in the subject line, and tell him Trap sent ya.
We're always at the spring and fall Reno show, next one is Nov 16, 17 & 18 .
http://www.bigrenoshow.com/
Good place to find a buttstock for that SRC!

[rb765]

Here are my results from Mr Hartman. He called my rifle a "Frankenchester". It turns out the receiver was made in 1904, but the barrel was made in the 50's. He also said to go ahead and refinish it because I could not hurt the value of it (wait, did he just call this rifle a POS?).

I also learned that my great uncles '94 had gum stocks on it, which is going to make it even harder to find that darn stock. Too bad uncle Ray's did not have the right stock or it would be sacrificed. One more replaced body part on Frankenchester wont hurt it.

Thanks again for hooking me up with Mr Hartman.

[rb765]

BTW, here are some picks of Frank





The last pic really shows the difference between the parts.

[TRAP55]

(wait, did he just call this rifle a POS?)

Probably, but he does it with such finesse.
That's one thing about Bert, he gives you a straight forward honest answer, no matter how bad it hurts. Did he tell you if the barrel was a Winchester installed barrel, Bubba take-off and installed, or a mail order barrel?
And did he give you any leads on a buttstock?
Wait, I'm using his data to get 1903, and now he says 1904?

[rb765]

Whoops, your right, late 1903, not 1904. Here is what he sent me:

"Ruben,

The Model 64 barrel was made in late 1950 or later. The receiver was made in late 1903. The gun is what I refer to as a "Frankenchester". It has very little value, and nothing that you can do to it will hurt the value any further.

Bert"

Looks like I just may have to buy a sacrificial rifle one of these days just to get this one complete. Oh well, at least the finished gun will be worth the effort.

[TRAP55]

RB, it looks like that gallon of old varnish might be hiding a pretty piece of walnut under it. Mod 64 bbls got a little more attention to detail, so if it has a good bore, I would re-finish the whole gun, and enjoy it as a shooter.

[rb765]

I went ahead and stripped the gunk off the stocks, but left all the nicks and character marks on the wood before refinishing. The pictures came out a little lighter than the actual gun because of the flash. And you were right Trap, one one side of the stock was great figure, not so much on the other side.





I did notice when I had the gun apart, some rough edges on the magazine tube. Nothing a little TLC won't fix, but we are going to take it out this weekend to give it a try. Thanks again for all your help.

[TRAP55]

Wow! What a difference!
A stock with figure in it like that today would set you back more than the gun was worth. Let me know how it shoots!

[skits57]

sir, I learned about this thread from the good folks at Gunbroker.com. I have some Winchesters I am trying to get an accurate date on, could you help? They are:
1897 - ser. #'s 34699, 858789, 256733.
1912 - ser. #'s 238214, 434388, 683805
1903 - ser # 41865
These all have sentimental value, so I want to get the records straight.
Thank you in advance for your help.

[TRAP55]

skits, write these down and slip them under the buttplates.

1897 - ser. #'s (continuation of Model 1893 serial #'s)
34699, made 1897, with 13,282 made that year.
858789, made Jan of 1930, 8,375 made that year.
256733, made 1904, 37,727 made that year.

1912 - ser. #'s
238214, made early 1920, 50,959 made that year.
434388, made 1925, 44,806 made that year.
683805, made late 1931, 11,461 made that year.

1903 - ser # 41865 was made in 1907, with 8,621 made that year.

[skits57]

Trap55 - thank your very much! Is there any way to gather additional information on these pieces? The 1930 '97 is a riot gun, I don't know much about the early history. the 1904 '97 says Trap Gun on the bolt, but I'm dubious of it.
The 1897 '97 was purchased new by my grandfather, and the 1931 model 12 was trap gun ordered new from the factory by a friend's father. His claim was that there were only two made in this configuration, one for him, and one for Teddy Roosevelt. (again, doubtful)
Anyway, thanks again. I have other Winchesters I want to check out, but they aren't a priority.

[TRAP55]

skits, a '97 Trap gun will have a "black diamond" inlay in the stock, if it hasn't been replaced.
The Cody letters will tell you what features the guns were shipped with, if they were returned for factory work, and where they were shipped to. In some rare cases, they will show "who" it was shipped to, and sometimes the serial number lots that were shipped to a location. Having a letter adds value to the gun too, and I would recommend it for a more complete history on your guns. You can contact them here:
Cody Firearms Research, C/O Buffalo Bill Historical Center, Cody, Wyoming 82414, Phone: (307) 587-4771 - http://www.bbhc.org/explore/firearms/firearms-records/

[Peter in CA]

TRAP55,
I have just purchased my first "vintage" Winchester. Model 1886, serial number 20607. Do you have any information on this rifle?.

Thank you.

Peter in CA

[Peter in CA]

TRAP55,
I found the serial number on the internet. Made in ?. So clearly not made as a 33 Winchester. Rebarreled with a Model 86 barrel to 33wcf.

Peter in CA

[TRAP55]

Originally Posted by Peter in CA

TRAP55,
I have just purchased my first "vintage" Winchester. Model 1886, serial number 20607. Do you have any information on this rifle?.

Thank you.

Peter in CA

Made mid 1888, with 16,112 made that year.
The 33WCF was introduced in the 1886 about 1902. If the factory did the re-barrel, it would be noted in a Cody letter as to the original cal, and the 33wcf barrel. If the barrel was mail ordered from Winchester and installed by someone else, it'll have a P in a oval proof stamp on it.

[Peter in CA]

TRAP55,
Thank you for your answers. The barrel has both P in an oval and WP in an oval. Here is a picture.

Peter in CA

[TRAP55]

Peter,
Winchester did not begin marking the mail order barrels with a "P" until circa 1914. Those that were ordered and sent out prior to that time were usually marked "OF" (Outside Fitted) on the underside of the barrel.
Many of the early factory rebarreled Winchesters will also have "J.P.P." marked on the underside of the barrel.

[frankh7]

Trap55,

1984 32-40 serial # 174XXX
Model 70 30-06 serial # 92153
Model 70 270 serial # 111813

Thanks

[Peter in CA]

TRAP55,
So this one looks to have been rebarreled by someone other than Winchester?

Peter

[TRAP55]

Originally Posted by Peter in CA

TRAP55,
So this one looks to have been rebarreled by someone other than Winchester?

Peter

Yep, it's a Winchester made barrel, but that proof tells you they didn't install it. If you scroll up to post #298, you'll see Bert's contact info. Send him an email with the serial, make sure you tell him I sent ya, and see if he can check for a Cody letter and see what cal it was built in. Include some good clear pics, and he'll give you an honest appraisal too.

[TRAP55]

Frank,
1894 32-40 serial # 174XXX was made early 1903, 35,957 made that year.
I sold one a couple years back, same cal, that was in 80% that I'm still kicking myself for. But it funded 3 others to take the pain away. I have an 1885 and a Stevens 44 in .32-40, accurate and a pleasure to shoot. If you're not reloading for it, you need to. I have a spare Winchester bullet mold for sale/trade if you're interested too.

Model 70 30-06 serial # 92153 was made in 1948, 26,005 made that year.

Model 70 270 serial # 111813 was made early 1949, 29,990 made that year.

[PEZHEAD265]

Hi Trapp do you know anything about old Colts?I have a 4 digit Colt Lightning that I'm wondering about.It is a 38 cal with mother of pearl grips.Does Cody do Colt letters?The bluing is about 90 % with a good amount of case color on the frame.I say it is about 90 percent condition for a 125 year old gun.
Thanks in advance

[TRAP55]

Pez,
Colt does their letters, prices are high:
Colt's Manufacturing Co. Inc., PO Box 1868, Hartford, Connecticut 06144-1868 Phone: (860) 236-6311, Historical Department. http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/historical.asp

[GoatLocker]

Trap, how about an 1873, 20" octagonal barrel, no caliber marking (44-40?), serial number 77,028?