Processing brass in Bulk

[sigfan91]

Questions:

1. How much does this set up cost?

2. What powers it?

[JF99]

Randall and Joe,

Thanks for your excellent write-ups of your XL650 brass processing systems. I've set up a .223 processing toolhead following your examples (RCBS lube die, Dillon sizer/trimmer, Dillon powder die) and I'm wondering what kind of consistency as to headspace and OAL is reasonable to expect.

My first batches weren't very consistent at all, so I installed the Uniquetek toolhead clamp kit (http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1230) and a thrust bearing/washers under the shellplate bolt. Still getting iffy results though.

What sort of consistency do you get, and are there any tips/tricks to improve it?

Thanks again,
Josh

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by JF99

Randall and Joe,

Thanks for your excellent write-ups of your XL650 brass processing systems. I've set up a .223 processing toolhead following your examples (RCBS lube die, Dillon sizer/trimmer, Dillon powder die) and I'm wondering what kind of consistency as to headspace and OAL is reasonable to expect.

My first batches weren't very consistent at all, so I installed the Uniquetek toolhead clamp kit (http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1230) and a thrust bearing/washers under the shellplate bolt. Still getting iffy results though.

What sort of consistency do you get, and are there any tips/tricks to improve it?

Thanks again,
Josh

Do you have two dies in the toolhead across from the dillon trimmer?
These two dies should be set down hard against the shellplate WITHOUT a case in the shellplate.
THEN adjust the trim die to proper headspace.
The two dies support the shellplate platform from flexing during sizing.
This will make the headspace length more consistent.

I would expect them all to be within about 0.003".

[JF99]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Do you have two dies in the toolhead across from the dillon trimmer?
These two dies should be set down hard against the shellplate WITHOUT a case in the shellplate.
THEN adjust the trim die to proper headspace.
The two dies support the shellplate platform from flexing during sizing.
This will make the headspace length more consistent.

I would expect them all to be within about 0.003".

Randall, thanks - I do have two dies in the toolhead across from the trimmer. But I hadn't tried setting them down against the shellplate before setting the headspace. I was trying to do that afterwards.

0.003" would be great. I'll give it a try.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by JF99

Randall, thanks - I do have two dies in the toolhead across from the trimmer. But I hadn't tried setting them down against the shellplate before setting the headspace. I was trying to do that afterwards.

0.003" would be great. I'll give it a try.

OK, no brass in the shellplate at all.
Run the ram all the way up.
Snug down the two support dies against the shellplate with all the force 2 fingers will muster.
Lock the dies there.
Then pull the ram back down, add a case and start adjusting the trim die for proper headspace followed by proper trim length.

[JF99]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

OK, no brass in the shellplate at all.
Run the ram all the way up.
Snug down the two support dies against the shellplate with all the force 2 fingers will muster.
Lock the dies there.
Then pull the ram back down, add a case and start adjusting the trim die for proper headspace followed by proper trim length.

Randall, thanks again. I tightened down the shellplate bolt and the toolhead clamp bolts, then snugged down the support dies, locked them and set up and locked in the trim die headspace. Didn't even try to add the trimmer motor or vacuum line yet.

On my RCBS precision mic, the initial shells were showing shoulder bump of -.004", right where I wanted them. But when I ran 40 more through the system, the variance is about .007" (from +.001 to -.006).

Not sure what I'm doing wrong. Called Dillon and they agreed with your estimate that the system should be capable of .003" variance.

Best,
Josh

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by JF99

Randall, thanks again. I tightened down the shellplate bolt and the toolhead clamp bolts, then snugged down the support dies, locked them and set up and locked in the trim die headspace. Didn't even try to add the trimmer motor or vacuum line yet.

On my RCBS precision mic, the initial shells were showing shoulder bump of -.004", right where I wanted them. But when I ran 40 more through the system, the variance is about .007" (from +.001 to -.006).

Not sure what I'm doing wrong. Called Dillon and they agreed with your estimate that the system should be capable of .003" variance.

Best,
Josh

Different brass types will react differently to sizing.
This is due to variations in brass hardness.

Sort some cases by headstamp and size 4-5 of each type at one die setting, then measure them.
See how consistent they are within the same type vs within the whole mixed batch.

If you are running mixed types like me, just size them all so that even the longest cases are getting sized enough and don't worry about the short ones.

[JF99]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Different brass types will react differently to sizing.
This is due to variations in brass hardness.

Sort some cases by headstamp and size 4-5 of each type at one die setting, then measure them.
See how consistent they are within the same type vs within the whole mixed batch.

If you are running mixed types like me, just size them all so that even the longest cases are getting sized enough and don't worry about the short ones.

Well, I've been trying to control for that, so this last batch was all LC07 with a few LC08s thrown in. Fired only in my ARs, so no surplus machine-gun brass or anything like that.

I realized I haven't been checking how much lube is on each case - pretty much just letting the lube die do its thing. Do you think an excess of lube (e.g. on the first cases after refilling the die) might build up in the size/trim die and prevent later cases from sizing fully?

The problem really seems to be that something is preventing some, but not all, of the cases from getting fully into the size/trim die. . .

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by JF99

The problem really seems to be that something is preventing some, but not all, of the cases from getting fully into the size/trim die. . .

What makes you think this?

[JF99]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

What makes you think this?

Well, I'm surely no expert, but I set the size die to bump the shoulders down to -.004 and many are coming out bumped to +.001 or .000, which seems like insufficient sizing.

When I had the trimmer motor mounted, I had it set for 1.750, but some shells were coming out at 1.754+. So that seems like the shell isn't getting close enough to the blade. . .

What do you think?

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by JF99

When I had the trimmer motor mounted, I had it set for 1.750, but some shells were coming out at 1.754+. So that seems like the shell isn't getting close enough to the blade. . .

What do you think?

The hardness of the brass is what you are fighting.
The press frame can stretch differently based on the hardness of the brass AND the amount of lubrication.
Screw the trim die down a little more so that even the longest cases are getting sized enough to fit into your guns.

[ZakAttackMan]

How long does a RCBS Lube dies decaping stem last before bending?

The reason I'm asking is I have around 25,000 cases to do and I'm ordering the lube die soon and want to know how many decaping stems and pins I would need?

I know that I could always do it on the loading setup but I like the idea of having a prep completed round come out of my 650 with every pull (except for the swaging).

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by ZakAttackMan

How long does a RCBS Lube dies decaping stem last before bending?

One berdan case will do it in.
I keep a couple spares around.

Call or Email RCBS tech support and tell them the decapping stem bent on your lube die.
Ask for a couple spares so you won't be down if the next one bends too.

[joelogic]

On the high side 1 bent pin per 1k cases.

[SES50]

Great thread, thanks for the all the information.

I have a Dillon 650 but have not seen a Dillon 1050 close up. How are they swaging the primer pockets on the 1050 and is it possible to some how put it one a 650?

Thanks
SES50

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by SES50

Great thread, thanks for the all the information.

I have a Dillon 650 but have not seen a Dillon 1050 close up. How are they swaging the primer pockets on the 1050 and is it possible to some how put it one a 650?

Thanks
SES50

Completely different press designs.
The 650 has fixed dies and the shellplate moves up and down.
The 1050 has a fixed shellplate and the dies move up and down.
Having the fixed shellplate also allows them to swage primer pockets and seat primers during the handle's down-stroke.

Skip to about 1 minute into this video:

[5150bronco]

thanks Randall. I am going to start reloading instead of buying cases.

[BlackRifleFan]

Wow that bullet feeder and case feeder you can really fly! But I noticed he is not checking his charges (powder check die).

Also it appears he is not trimming and swaging?

[BlackRifleFan]

I was reading how Military .308 LC Brass is really good stuff, but the first time it is really hard to work with, you have to decap and size in 2 separate steps because of the primer is crimped on super tight.

Sizing is difficult even with the old primer primer knocked out because most .308 cases were fired from machine guns with loose headspace causing the case to balloon bigger than normal and it takes extra lube and effort to get them back to size.

[Fyathyrio]

Randall,

I'm looking to do a setup similar to yours with the Dillon trimmer and RCBS lube die on my LnL press, now that nearly a year has passed since you wrote this...would you do anything different? I'll be doing both .223 and .308.

Thanks,
Mark

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by Fyathyrio

now that nearly a year has passed since you wrote this...would you do anything different?

I've been doing it this way for at least 6 years and I have not found anything better in all that time.
I only wrote the thread a year or so ago.

[mstlaurent]

Originally Posted by Fyathyrio

Randall,

I'm looking to do a setup similar to yours with the Dillon trimmer and RCBS lube die on my LnL press, now that nearly a year has passed since you wrote this...would you do anything different? I'll be doing both .223 and .308.

Thanks,
Mark

One suggestion I would make, since I'm doing the same thing with an LNL: make sure that as part of your setup for processing brass you remove the priming punch. If you get stray brass chips in the priming punch it can hang up the shuttle and damage the shuttle and/or cam follower. With the Dillon trimmer on you will get a lot of chips flying around, even with the vacuum attachment. If this is a permanent setup (i.e. process on the LNL and load on another progressive), I would remove the cam follower completely and just let the spring tension hold the shuttle in place for the entire stroke.

[sargenv]

But I noticed he is not checking his charges (powder check die).

I suspect he is using a powder suited to mass quantity loading, either a short stick or ball powder. Since he is basically loading blasting ammo (ie short range or under 100 yards) there is no need to check the powder since it likely all drops + or - .2 gr or so.. and so long as it runs his particular firearms, why bother?

I load for 223, 30-30, and soon 308 win and use a similar method to Randall and I never do a powder check. I usually use exclusively ball powder for 223 and 308 and in the case of 30-30 I use trailboss which meters just fine through my Dillon measure. 8.5 gr of it fills the 30-30 case about 70%.

[joelogic]

I dont see the point of a powder check on a progressive.

[mstlaurent]

Originally Posted by joelogic

I dont see the point of a powder check on a progressive.

I do. What else do you have to look at on the up-stroke? Why not play it safe? Maybe your powder caked up in the drop tube. Maybe you just had to clear a jam and you think you know where you were, but you're wrong. Maybe you lost your place because your wife just interrupted you to ask if you've seen your youngest child and/or the electric carving knife.

To me, minor annoyance + severe consequences = no brainer. YMMV

[RaymondMillbrae]

I gotta agree..the powder check is indespensible.

Just that little feature sold me on the XL650.

In Christ: Raymond

[Fyathyrio]

Randall,

Thanks, good to know!

mstlaurent,

Good point, I've learned the hard way that stuff can build up around the primer shuttle and cause probs.

[JC Smith]

Hi Randall,

Have you ever had a problem with scratched dies? I did a similar setup on my Dillon 550 with the RCBS lube die and Dillon trimmer. The first 100 cases worked like a charm but sometime during the next 100 the size/trim die became scratched and about half the second batch of cases had long scratches in them from the shoulder to near the base. The brass was all from the same lot and it had been cleaned and polished. On disassembly I found some sort of coarse debris stuck in the threads of the lock nut (the one that locks the die to the tool head... it wasn't there when I assembled the setup). The nut could not be removed from the die without either some serious cleaning effort or considerable force. Neither was used and the die was returned to Dillon for their inspection. They sent me another one but had no clue as to how it happened. Do you have any thoughts before I try another batch of cases?

Thanks - JC Smith

[joelogic]

Scratched dies happen. Tumble the brass longer. I ruined 2 dies until I just started tumbling for twice as long. I used a chamber honing brush to polish the die back to new.

[JC Smith]

Thanks, but it wasn't that. This brass looked better than new, except for the obligatory ding from the deflector.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by JC Smith

Have you ever had a problem with scratched dies?

Most likely, you were not lubing correctly and you picked up some brass on the sizing die.
That brass sticks to the die and then scratches every case you size.
Either that, or you had a burr at the vent hole.
The vent is right at the shoulder and is designed to vent off excess lube so you don't get lube dents.
The vent often clogs up if you use too much lube and acts just like you explained by locking up the locknut on the outside of the die.

[JC Smith]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Most likely, you were not lubing correctly and you picked up some brass on the sizing die.
That brass sticks to the die and then scratches every case you size.
Either that, or you had a burr at the vent hole.
The vent is right at the shoulder and is designed to vent off excess lube so you don't get lube dents.
The vent often clogs up if you use too much lube and acts just like you explained by locking up the locknut on the outside of the die.

Being new to this trim setup almost anything is possible, but:
>It wasn't a burr on the vent hole, I checked that when I cleaned the die before using it plus the scratches on the cases cover about 1/3 of the body... way too much to be from the vent hole.
>The lube die seemed to be doing its job, in fact a little too much. I had a number of cases with small lube dents in the shoulder.
>I did find quite a few brass trimmings inside the top of the die and in some of the sized cases. I didn't think they could scratch a steel die but I see how they could scratch other cases if they were stuck inside the die. However, the die itself appeared to be scratched. I tried cleaning it with no luck. Sent it back to Dillon and they seemed to thing it was scratched too.
>I wish I had disassembled the nut from the die and looked closer at the stuff that was in the threads. It looked like it could be steel, the threads appeared to be galling, but I can't say for sure. I do have good macro pictures of it however. I wish the lock nut had a little more thread to engage. That die seems to have to go too far into the tool head, not enough thread above the head for the nut to hold on to (because of the "windows").
>I'm going to try again soon. I'll report back.

[cjskalka]

"station 2 has a 22-250 neck sizing die set high in the press
this knocks out media from 2nd tumbling and neck expands DOWNWARDS like a lyman M die."

Is there any particular reason for using a 22-250 neck sizing die instead of just taking a .223 small base die with expander and just backing it out a lot so that the only thing working the brass is the expander? Or did you just happen to have a spare 22-250 die laying around you wanted to put to use?

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by JC Smith

That die seems to have to go too far into the tool head, not enough thread above the head for the nut to hold on to (because of the "windows").

I put the locknut on the underside of the toolhead.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by cjskalka

did you just happen to have a spare 22-250 die laying around you wanted to put to use?

Yes.

[Antihero47]

Bah!!

Got all my toys in today (rcbs lube die, corncob, super swager) and 3k brass to decap, resize, trim, swage.

About 300-400 rounds in the decapping rod on the lube die got bent and started destroying brass. Now I need to call RCBS to get another one or a couple more. I tried to use the lube die without the decapping rod but it doesn't seem like lube is getting on the cases anymore.

[joelogic]

Genius, I have been messing with locktite on my .223 trim die for a while now because there are not enough threads on top. I am going to be putting a nut on the bottom side first thing tomorrow.

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

I put the locknut on the underside of the toolhead.

[Antihero47]

Just called RCBS, they are sending out 2 new stem assemblies and extra pins today not even a two minute phone call. I love RCBS and Dillon customer support. For Free.

[joelogic]

I might have to switch to a lubing die because I am getting tried on cleaning the casefeeder and the feeder tube.
Any lessons learned?
Just buy a die and some lube?
Run a reservoir like Randall?

[Antihero47]

When it worked it was GREAT. I have not used it enough to really need the reservoir however. Pretty much purchase the RCBS Lube die (#1 for .223) and it comes with some RCBS lube that works really well. I read that some people use the cable pulling jell and it works really well also. The fact that it decaps is a plus.

Just be sure to get enough lube in there, you kinda of have to use trial and error to get enough to soak the pads inside. It takes about 15-30 minutes to see if the pads get soaked. Put a very light film of lube that was perfect for sizing and doesn't get all over the place.