Is a 30-30 effective for hunting with copper ammo?

[deckhandmike]

Was thinking of picking up a 30-30 for pig hunting. I’m currently using a 6.8spc but it’s kinda like shooting fish in a barrel. Thought using a classic might be fun. Are they effective enough with copper out to 200 yards for hog? Most shots would probably be closer to 50 feet but I’m curious on practical range assuming I can do my part.

It should be similar to my 6.8spc looking at the numbers but I know nothing about these type of guns.

[Imageview]

So not having done personal testing, my suspicion is the 30-30 bullet is designed to expand at slower speeds than bullets designed for the 30-06. I'm sure if you dug around on the manufacturers sites long enough you could find their exact rated expansion speed.

But my guess is inside 200 yards it's gonna be just fine. There will be some drop, but not really that much. Checked buffalo bore's table and it shows their lead free round is getting a bit anemic at that point, with only 700 fpe, but that's still way more energy than 357 mag at the muzzle from a revolver. So if you put the bullet in the right spot it should be fine. At 150 it would be still be above 1k fpe, which would give more comfort for me.

[Sir Toast]

I gave away a Marlin 30-30 with a Leupold 2-7 power scope to my Nephew after he came back from Afghanistan for the 3rd time in the Rangers. He bagged some nice hogs with it already. Rifle well spent. I have a few pics of him with the hogs. I'll see if I can't find 'em.

So, yeah. Any well placed shot with a 30-30 can drop a hog. Spraying and praying is irresponsible.

[deckhandmike]

^Was he using copper?

[Calif Hunter]

My personal limit with open sights would be 150 yards and beyond that, with a scope, I would have to be sure of the range. I have not shot a hog with the Barnes .30-30 bullet, but my experience with other Barnes bullets is that I have confidence in them. A Hornady monoflex may be even better but I have no experience with them so I can't help you there. I would expect good performance from Hornady, though.

[Spyder]

Absolutely. I load 130g coppers in 30-30 and it works great.

[deckhandmike]

Originally Posted by Spyder

Absolutely. I load 130g coppers in 30-30 and it works great.

Perfect, I was hoping you would chime in. I was about to PM you. Any reason for 130? More speed?

[CartridgeCalls]

I have used my Wincheaster and Marlin .30-30 with Barnes 150gr TSX to drop deer and pigs out to 200 yards without any issue. Also the 130gr work perfectly if you can find them.

https://www.egunco.com/product/barne...product_detail

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by deckhandmike

Perfect, I was hoping you would chime in. I was about to PM you. Any reason for 130? More speed?

I got a really good deal on 500 Federal projectiles from american reloading, and they shot as well as I expect an old Marlin and Winchester to shoot, with leverevolution and the first recipe I loaded up.

[deckhandmike]

Alright, I might pick up one of the new Marlins when it comes out in 30-30. Don’t know enough to bother hunting a old one down.

[hambam105]

deckhandmike'

With the advent of the inner-net, California deer and wild boar stopped reading the popular Guns & Ammo Hunting Magazines.
So now these wild beasts don't know they are supposed to die when hit with 30 caliber compliant bullets.

[pennstater]

'mike, the 150 TSX Barnes for the 30-30 works well on Ca hogs. Real well.
Last piggy I shot was around the King City area, maybe 125 yards with that bullet. Pretty much dropped right there. Right behind the shoulder.

MLC

[cleonard]

Originally Posted by pennstater

'mike, the 150 TSX Barnes for the 30-30 works well on Ca hogs. Real well.
Last piggy I shot was around the King City area, maybe 125 yards with that bullet. Pretty much dropped right there. Right behind the shoulder.

MLC

Here is the info for the Barnes 30-30 150gr bullet. They publish reloading data too.

[Calif Hunter]

I have a box of the 150 gr Barnes that I haven't used and probably won't use them. I usually use a different round to hunt with. I must have bought them for my grandson to use in the Model 94 I gave him before they moved to Ohio.

[deckhandmike]

Originally Posted by hambam105

deckhandmike'

With the advent of the inner-net, California deer and wild boar stopped reading the popular Guns & Ammo Hunting Magazines.
So now these wild beasts don't know they are supposed to die when hit with 30 caliber compliant bullets.

Well, it’s a relevant question when shooting copper going 2200-2400. I don’t like screwing around in the poison oak looking for a pissed off hog.

[200Apples]

dhmike, every caliber will benefit from shooting pure copper projectiles. I have received many great reports of copper bullets outperforming their jacketed lead counterparts.

The homogenous copper bullet is better balanced coaxially/longitudinally; meaning they spin better and deviate less from their flight path.

Copper is slightly less dense than lead, therefore a copper bullet must be a little longer for the same bullet weight as a lead-core, but the step down in bullet weight in some cases (where the brass case propellant volume may be limited) doesn't matter since a pure copper bullet sheds less weight in target.

Hunters that *can* use lead in other states will use BARNES (for example) just because they are more-accurate and effective on their game.

There are other non-lead bullet options such as Hornady's GMX which is a solid made from copper jacket alloy... but they're not as naturally well-balanced as a pure copper, nor are they as soft.

I haven't yet hunted with my .30-30 and copper but I'm all ready to go. I've some BARNES' commercially loaded ammo (150 grain to 2350 fps) and I have several boxes of 150 and 130 grain BARNES .30-30 TSX bullets (shaped to be loaded in tubular mags) when I get the time to load some. I'm excited about it because my 336 Texan is a good shooter! Can't wait! although who knows when it'll be before I get out there and hunt some pork.

I've got some BARNES bullets to handload for .44 Mag, .44 Special (the cannelure is in a different spot to have a little more bullet outside of the Special brass), some in .41, .45-70 -and- .308 Win...

[JohnCCW]

I would think the bullet manufacturer would design their large meplat bullets to work at typical lever action velocities whether they are copper or lead, 30-30 or 405 Win.

[Imageview]

I think there are potential exceptions, when you have a bullet primarily designed for one chambering being used for another. For example I am working on loading up some 357 max 140gr Barnes to be shot out of a rifle length barrel, with projectiles that are designed to expand at 357 mag out of a handgun velocities. I suspect expansion will not be ideal in the too much direction, all the petals potentially getting folded back. Won’t know until I shoot something with them (if I’m able to recover the round, if I’m right that’s probably unlikely) but I wouldn’t be shocked.

But they’re making the 30-30 bullet to be shot at 30-30 velocities. So there shouldn’t be any issues there. Can always email Barnes and ask what velocity they are rated to expand at though.

[hambam105]

What was happening in the olden-days when 30-30 hunters were shooting deer and pig with plain old worthless 150 grain round nose cast lead bullets using lower pressure lower velocity black powder loads? Might have to call a Jack Russel Terrier or two for back-up. You know, just to be safe.

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by 200Apples

Hunters that *can* use lead in other states will use BARNES (for example) just because they are more-accurate and effective on their game.

This has not been my experience. I hunted CA for a long time, and used the TTSX. It is a good performer, and killed stuff dead. But it wasn't as good a performer and it wasn't as accurate as my old stand-by, the Sierra 165gr GameKing. The TTSX would kill alright, but I saw some weird stuff happen and dead animals wandering off for a bit before dropping. Never lost an animal, but sometimes it was hard to tell if I hit one, until it finally dropped. With the Sierra, they always dropped in their tracks, straight down, before the echo of the shot faded. Never a question if I had scored a hit or not.

When I finally pulled the plug and moved to Idaho, I switched back to the Sierra bullet. I have yet to meet anyone hunting here that favors a copper bullet over the traditional ones, except maybe out of state CA hunters that bring what they have.

I still have some TTSX loads for my 30-06, and will use them...... but truth be told the .308 gets the nod these days, and it shoots the Sierra. It's a better hunting bullet, as far as my experience as shown.

[deckhandmike]

Originally Posted by hambam105

What was happening in the olden-days when 30-30 hunters were shooting deer and pig with plain old worthless 150 grain round nose cast lead bullets using lower pressure lower velocity black powder loads? Might have to call a Jack Russel Terrier or two for back-up. You know, just to be safe.

Uh, they wounded tons of game that died needlessly. You and 200apples have no idea about what you’re talking about. Copper ammo is terrible for many applications and requires high speeds to expand. This thread is sadly filled with terrible advice. As usual, only a few guys actually know anything. Thanks to the guys with the experienced answers. This thread can die now.

[200Apples]

You and 200apples have no idea about what you’re talking about.

Suck it.

*When you can't use a lead or jacketed lead projectile* (see bigbossman's reply), then COPPER is the next best thing.

[200Apples]

Your question in the OP iirc was ASKING about the use of copper projectiles in the .30-30 cartridge. I replied in kind and with info corroborated elsewhere here on CGN and in other after action reports.

While these retired wildlife biologists funded by the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources did not use the .30-30 per se in their testing, one can gather from their results using the .270 and .308 that copper doesn't require higher velocities to be effective, let alone need higher velocities to expand.

[200Apples]

28 Years Hunting with Barnes X [copper] Bullets

The diameter and depth of the hollow determines how far back the petals peel and at what impact velocities. The minimum for expansion is generally about 1,800 fps. X Bullets designed for low velocity cartridges like lever-action rifle and revolver rounds and even 30-30 Winchester show larger nose openings than those made for high velocity centerfire rifle cartridges., so they open at much lower velocities.

Light and Long B.C. Issues

Because the specific gravity of copper is less than that of lead, a Barnes X the same weight as a similarly shaped lead-core bullet will be much longer; so long that it might not stabilize in standard twist rate barrels. If your 270 stabilizes a 150-grain traditional bullet, it will likely stabilize no heavier than a 140-grain TTSX. Fortunately, the 90- to 100-percent terminal weight retention of Barnes X bullets compensates for this lighter mass. In general, a Barnes X one or two weight steps down from comparable cup-and-lead core bullets penetrates as well. Thus a 165-gr. or even 150-gr. .308 X could match the penetration of a 180-gr. lead core from the same cartridge. This does not apply to bonded or partitioned lead cores. And controlled expansion lead core bullet that routinely holds onto 80% or more of original mass should penetrate as well as or better than the lighter X.

Excerpts quoted above are from the linked article written by Ron Spomer. Little if anything in his story contradicts much of what I have offered in good faith in this thread. Your attitude towards those trying to assist your quest is surprisingly rude. Good luck to you now and in the future, deckhandmikie.

[JohnCCW]

Can't we all just get along?

[hambam105]

Some guys just have no sense of humor.

Home brewed cast round nose lead bullets & black powder reloads fired from a 30-30 rifles has flattened more
CA Hog & Deer than Chevrolet & Ford front bumpers have combined.

Don't believe everything you read in Hog & Dear hunting porn magazines.

[deckhandmike]

200, I appreciate your attempt. Unless you have used lead and copper you can’t really begin to understand. The info you provided is dead wrong unfortunately. The overwhelming consensus among actual hunters is lead far outperforms copper in most cases. My question I’m sure seemed simple but what I was asking and who I was asking, only the guys that have used the stuff could answer.

Ron Spomer shoots large game with very large calibers where penetration is key. His take on smaller caliber ammo choice would likely be very different on the subject. I can see how you believe the hype but your not grasping the context. We have some very informative threads over in the hunting section on the performance of copper.
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...ghlight=Copper

[deckhandmike]

Originally Posted by hambam105

Some guys just have no sense of humor.

Home brewed cast round nose lead bullets & black powder reloads fired from a 30-30 rifles has flattened more
CA Hog & Deer than Chevrolet & Ford front bumpers have combined.

Don't believe everything you read in Hog & Dear hunting porn magazines.

I have lots of experience with copper. My hesitations are from seeing piss poor performance. Especially with low speed. I think it’s you that’s believing the hype of “it’s worked for a hundred years”. As someone who has been a professional fishermen there are plenty of things that “work” but how well is a very different question in the real world.

[Imageview]

Physics favors bonded core lead bullets, there is no doubt. Copper has a narrower window of effectiveness due to the harder materials. Copper’s performance within that window is far more consistent than traditional lead bullets. This can be a very good thing, it just requires understanding the limits. Outside those limits, or on the edges, it’s a not so good thing. In ideal circumstances everyone would chrono their rounds and range their targets, along with having knowledge of the specific performance characteristics of the bullets they are using.

The first generation of copper wasn’t so great, but that was a long time ago. The current stuff is better, but lead still gets far more attention from the manufacturers. With the uk going all lead free and the eu not far behind, we’ll see even more progress. This is good for all of us, because more options and choices gives us the opportunity to select the right tool for the right job.

Performance details and video evidence on 30-30 in copper are less common than some other chamberings. It’s not 270 western or 6.5 creedmore or whatever the new exciting thing the firearm industry is hawking. But 30-30 isn’t really a complicated round. You’re not shooting an antelope at 500 yards with it, and if you are you’re probably some sort of long range hunting hipster with a strong contrarian instinct and awful facial hair.

Within your stated use conditions things should be fine. Definitely within 150. As always putting the round in the right place is the biggest part of the equation. If you had a 357 mag revolver and pressed it up against a hog or deer in the right spot and pulled the trigger, you would be pretty confident the animal would go down. Even with hard cast or similar non expanding projectiles. 30-30 has more power at the ranges we’re discussing than that so it’ll penetrate for sure. Expansion is the only question, and Barnes or hornady or whomever are happy to answer that if you ask.

If you aren’t feeling confident in 30-30, but like the style of rifle and how it handles, go up to 45-70. You get maybe 2 inches more drop at 150, 4 inches more at 200, with a 100 gr heavier projectile with a hollow nose cavity you could park a Volkswagen in. And even if it doesn’t expand you’ll get a hole almost as big as an expanded 30 cal projectile. Your shoulder might not appreciate it as much, but really it’s only rough on a bench so for hunting who cares. I’ve never really felt a shot I took hunting in the same way anyways.

[deckhandmike]

The expansion was what I was worrying about. Not all copper is the same, even for the same bullet. The 150 grain tsx I have for my rifle is a pointy beast that over penetrates. The “same” 155 grain tsx in my 10mm is a completely different. It’s very flat and hollow like a mushroom. I’m skeptical of its ability to penetrate and retain weight. The 30-30 is shaped similar. Despite years of success, 30-30 is rarely shot these days in CA hunting so the actual knowledge pool is very small. What worked fine with lead doesn’t always translate to copper. Just look at copper .22lr. Not a damn good one out there. Where .17hmr is fantastic. Some calibers and twists just don’t like lead free.

Many big games hunters talk about different bullets working fine but I think I’ve learned the most shooting tiny animals with tiny bullets. Ask a duck hunter or quail hunter what works better, lead or steel? Or a kid with copper bb vs a lead pellet. The subtle differences are much more noticeable at slower speeds and smaller bullets.

I’m not a fan of the 45-70 due to excessive recoil. They just kick like a mule. I like smaller calibers for hunting.

[Imageview]

I get it, although 22 is a different animal because the reason it sucks is physics too. It’s light, goes fast because it sheds velocity much quicker than lead, drops below the speed of sound and the turbulence from that transition really messes with the tiny bullet. 17 hmr has the same issue, just 200+ yards farther down range.

The biggest issues I’ve seen with copper or talked to friends about are edge case rounds like 22 lr. 22-250 is another one, where it’s just moving so fast it doesn’t seem to expand in several friends experience. Pencils right through. These were with the expanding rounds, not the fragmenting. Then he fact that most 22-250 rifles are too slow a twist for heavier copper bullets just makes it worse.

30-30 should be a nice middle of the road cartridge, but it all comes down to bullet design. Copper retains weight really well when used within its operating conditions, and I expect the bullet manufacturers are pretty cognizant of 30-30 operating parameters. 30-30 bullets are designed just for the 30-30, which helps in this regard.

Best bet of course is to test it yourself, after contacting the manufacturers. Get the specs, go out somewhere you can shoot with a chrono and a range finder, and shoot some gel or a hunk of expired meat. If I still had a 30-30 I’d volunteer it for the task because knowledge is good.

[tuna quesadilla]

My Barnes 4th Edition manual shows data for a 130gr TSX. They got it up to 2450fps with Benchmark out of a 20" bbl. They advise to only load two (one in chamber, one in mag) because the 130gr TSX is a spitzer bullet and there's the whole thing about putting spitzer bullets in tube mags.

2450fps with that bullet should give you your 200 yards of acceptable smack-down performance.

[Imageview]

Never thought of loading two with a spitzer that's smart.

[MJB]

Hit bone and your all good

[Kevin11mee]

Yea, I think you're good to 150-maybe 200 yards. Generally need at least 2000 fps for a mono metal to expand reliably. Just plug some numbers into a ballistic app and see where you hit 2000 FPS.

[Sandspider500]

Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla

My Barnes 4th Edition manual shows data for a 130gr TSX. They got it up to 2450fps with Benchmark out of a 20" bbl. They advise to only load two (one in chamber, one in mag) because the 130gr TSX is a spitzer bullet and there's the whole thing about putting spitzer bullets in tube mags.

2450fps with that bullet should give you your 200 yards of acceptable smack-down performance.

Or maybe because it's loaded to 2.720 OAL and won't even cycle from the magazine.

[200Apples]

Or maybe because it's loaded to 2.720 OAL and won't even cycle from the magazine.

True that. Hornady's pointy bullets intended for tube-mag, lever action long guns are polymer-tipped, yes, but more-importantly need a shortened brass case to fit within the recommended cartridge OAL.



Meanwhile, like anything and everything else in extistence, there will always be more than one take on the subject. Like religion, politics and motor oil, there will be often times opposing viewpoints.

The OP started this thread asking about non-lead-bullet options for hog hunting using a .30-30 lever action. Opinions vary, but here's another bullet choice:

Wilson [Combat] bought bulletmaker Lehigh [Defense] one year ago.

Here's their all-copper option for .30-30:

https://lehighdefense.com/our-techno...all_usage=2846

[Sandspider500]

^^^That looks like a good 30-30 bullet, with load data for 13 different powders, and a functional OAL.

[pennstater]

Originally Posted by Sandspider500

^^^That looks like a good 30-30 bullet, with load data for 13 different powders, and a functional OAL.

Indeed it does! Good info there Chris.

MLC

[middleofnowhere]

I gave my 30/30 away a while back so I don’t have specific advice. I have become a fan of Hammer Bullets (if you will roll your own) and they have a few lever action bullets.

https://hammerbullets.com/product/30...-lever-hammer/

Based on my experience shooting copper in California I would feel very comfortable shooting any Barnes, Lehigh or Hammer bullet in 30/30.