Recommend a book to read as a small group?

[Barang]

Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash

Here you go, first paragraph under “Meyer’s Theology.”…

https://www.equip.org/articles/joyce...first-century/

i will not defend joyce in that article dated 2015, what she said was falsehood.

fast forward 2023 and consider this current statement of faith from their ministry. if one is willing to change, must we hold grudge and unforgiveness ?
if you believe there's room for change, forgiveness and redemption. then read below.

https://joycemeyer.org/about/what-we-believe
Statement of Faith

The Bible is the infallible Word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and contains every answer to man's problems.
2 Timothy 3:16,17; 2 Peter 1:20, 21

There is one God, existing eternally in three persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
John 10:30; John 14:26; Philippians 2:5-7

God is Love and He loves all people. It is His desire to reach out to those who are poor, oppressed, widowed or orphaned, and to heal the brokenhearted.
Psalm 68:5,6; 1 John 4:16

Man is created in the image of God but separated from God by sin. Without Jesus we cannot have a relationship with God.
Genesis 1:26; 1 Timothy 2:5

We can have a personal relationship with God through salvation, God's free gift to man. It is not a result of what we do, but it is only available through God's unearned favor. By admitting we have sinned and believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, and accepting Him as Lord, we can spend eternity with God.
Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 5:1; Romans 3:24

We believe in water baptism, as taught and demonstrated by Jesus, as the way for believers to identify with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.
Matthew 28:19; Romans 6:4; Matthew 3:13-17

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a gift from God. He helps empower the believer to develop the character of Christ and live every day in God's will.
Matthew 3:11; Acts 2:4

God gives all believers spiritual gifts. They are for the strengthening of God's people (the Church) and proof of God's existence and power to unbelievers. The gifts of the Spirit are active and relevant today.
1 Corinthians 12:4-11; 1 Peter 4:10

Sanctification is the ongoing process of allowing God's character to be developed in us.
Romans 6:19; Galatians 5:22-25

Divine healing is active in the lives of people today through Jesus, who is the Healer. Healing includes physical, mental, emotional and spiritual restoration.
Luke 9:11; Matthew 9:35; Acts 10:38; Matthew 10:1

The Bible describes hell as a real place. It is a place of suffering and a place of permanent separation from God for those who die without accepting Christ. God's desire is that no one be separated from Him for eternity, which is why He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to earth.
Hebrews 9:27; Revelation 20:12-15; John 3:16-18

God instituted marriage between a genetic male and genetic female as the foundation of the family, the basic structure of human society. God commands that no intimate sexual activity be engaged other than in the context of marriage between a man and a woman.
Genesis 2:24; Mark 10:6-9; Romans 1:26-29; I Corinthians 6:9; I Thessalonians 4:1-8; Hebrews 13:4

Jesus will return and take all those who have accepted Him as Savior to be with Him for eternity.
Acts 1:11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; Hebrews 9:28

Joyce Meyer has on her board of directors, “Paul Osteen,” the brother of false doctrine and prosperity preacher, Joel Osteen. Now why is that not shocking???? She also regularly speaks at Joel Osteen’s mega church (“Lakewood church”) in Texas. It’s like one big happy family….of heretics.

LinkÂ….

https://joycemeyer.org/about/board-o...dr-paul-osteen

i've seen her preach there (on tv) many times and she was consistent on her sermons. joel osteen definitely a prosperity preacher but she's not joel. her ministry is about helping people who were abused (physically, emotionally, rape victims), loneliness, depression, etc.

her friendship with joel and paul osteen have nothing to do with her preaching.

[Barang]

Originally Posted by billvau

First, you keep bringing in her husband. You must be trying to interpret this passage as husband/wife rather than men/women in church assemblies (worship services, Sunday School, Bible studies, etc.).

we are talking two different things here. the difference is that they are not church (as in building). it's a ministry that minister to those who are hurting, rape victims, physically/mentally abused and such. joyce ministry is also domestic and international. they help feed the poor, extracting water from the ground, disaster/humanitarian relief and more.

.dave and joyce are not vying for the position. joyce is the one who is gifted in preaching not dave. without joyce, there is no ministry. church on the other hand can hire/retire and replace a pastor and the church will always be there.

The passage is not about marriage and roles of husbands/wives. It's about roles in group settings of the church - i.e., leadership, who teaches, etc. The passage, 2:11-15 and the wider context, 1 Timothy, only make sense with a men/women roles translation.

God's ways are not our ways. The Holy Spirit has chosen to bless us with the reason why women are to NEVER teach men - it goes back to the fall and a decision God made then.

no argument here.

[TrailerparkTrash]

Originally Posted by Barang

i will not defend joyce in that article dated 2015, what she said was falsehood.

fast forward 2023 and consider this current statement of faith from their ministry. if one is willing to change, must we hold grudge and unforgiveness ?
if you believe there's room for change, forgiveness and redemption. then read below…

Of course we are to forgive…. However one must repent in order to be forgiven. If she continues to teach falsely and un-biblically, there is no forgiveness then. Only repentance of sins and prayer can bring forgiveness:

Acts 8:22 (NKJV)
Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.

I have yet to witness Joyce repent and apologize to her followers, for her past false teachings.

Originally Posted by Barang

i've seen her preach there (on tv) many times and she was consistent on her sermons. joel osteen definitely a prosperity preacher but she's not joel. her ministry is about helping people who were abused (physically, emotionally, rape victims), loneliness, depression, etc.

her friendship with joel and paul osteen have nothing to do with her preaching.

Well, how about knowing them “by their fruits.”? Ever hear the saying, “tell me who you associate with and I’ll tell you who you are.”

Matthew 7:15-20 (NKJV)
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits.

Even from Joyce’s own inner circle and group, she associates with another false teacher “savage wolf” (Joel Osteen). How can anybody tolerate that? Paul says in Acts:

Acts 20:29-31 (NIV)
I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30-Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31-So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

Why does Joyce “indulge” with a false teacher (The Osteens)? Why would you tolerate her preaching to a flock of sheep in a house of a “prosperity gospel” preacher? You even admitted that Osteen was a prosperity gospel man.

Timothy tells us to avoid “godless chatter” because those who indulge in it will become “MORE UNGODLY” and the teaching will spread like gang green:

2 Timothy 2:16-18 (NIV)
16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

Joyce Meyer is comfortably indulging, engaging and immersing herself, as well as her followers with an ungodly teacher (Osteen). She herself partakes in “GODLESS CHATTER.”

Finally, Timothy says this and it’s 100% apropos to the obfuscation “ministry” of Joyce MEYER:

2 Timothy 4:2-5 (NIV)
2-Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3-For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4-They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5-But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

Remember, false teachers are to be corrected, rebuked and exposed. Yes we are judging as we are called to judge. However, we must judge RIGHTEOUSLY and according to the Bible. We are to 21-"Test all things; [in light of scripture] hold fast what is good. 22-Abstain from every form of evil." 1 Thes 5:21-22 (NKJV)

Joyce has been called out countless times by so many legitimate Christian pastors and theologians, it’s actually scary. She’s clearly and unequivocally preaching unbiblical doctrine, as a false prophet would. Yet people’s itching ears just want to only hear what they want to hear and continually turn away from the truth. Peter warns about these false teachers:

2 Peter 2:1-2 (NIV)
1-"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2-Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute."


May I suggest you watch this quick clip below? #7 is especially interesting, from Todd Friel. The video is titled, “Joyce Meyer: False Teacher?” It basically squashes much of what you posted previously from Meyer’s “current statement of faith.”

https://youtu.be/uUmMZszOZkY

[Barang]

Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash

I have yet to witness Joyce repent and apologize to her followers, for her past false teachings.

"you will know them by their fruits" as you aptly quoted. that's what i see in the contents of her sermons and their ministry worldwide. i am focusing on the current not the former. if she changed her ways as the evidence of what her ministry is doing now then that's good enough for me. i will not condemn her because of the past but will celebrate the new her.

Well, how about knowing them “by their fruits.”? Ever hear the saying, “tell me who you associate with and I’ll tell you who you are.”

Even from Joyce’s own inner circle and group, she associates with another false teacher “savage wolf” (Joel Osteen). How can anybody tolerate that? Paul says in Acts:


Why does Joyce “indulge” with a false teacher (The Osteens)? Why would you tolerate her preaching to a flock of sheep in a house of a “prosperity gospel” preacher? You even admitted that Osteen was a prosperity gospel man.

yes! joel osteen is a prosperity gospel preacher. maybe that's how far his knowledge of the Bible would allow him to teach or maybe that's what he chooses to focus on.

there are also prophecy teachers, miracle preachers, faith preachers ... does not make them false teachers but that's where they think they can minister the best for people who are searching for such.

my favorite preacher is the late pastor adrian rogers (love worth finding) and we watch his sermons every sunday along with david jeremiah, john bradshaw.
sometimes, robert jeffries, jack hibbs, john hagee, joyce meyer.

lamb and lion ministry and prophecy in spotlight on weekdays.

Remember, false teachers are to be corrected, rebuked and exposed. Yes we are judging as we are called to judge. However, we must judge RIGHTEOUSLY and according to the Bible. We are to 21-"Test all things; [in light of scripture] hold fast what is good. 22-Abstain from every form of evil." 1 Thes 5:21-22 (NKJV)

i will not defend falsehood and i'm not defending joyce out of sympathy. i based it on what i've heard, their statement of faith and what they are doing with the monthly support people give, all currently.

do you think i will tolerate and support their ministry if she is still preaching the falsehood like in the past? that would be ungodly and putting her above God.

it looks like we are in stalemate. so let's just agree to disagree and still be brothers in Christ.

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Barang

we are talking two different things here. the difference is that they are not church (as in building). it's a ministry that minister to those who are hurting, rape victims, physically/mentally abused and such. joyce ministry is also domestic and international. they help feed the poor, extracting water from the ground, disaster/humanitarian relief and more.

.dave and joyce are not vying for the position. joyce is the one who is gifted in preaching not dave. without joyce, there is no ministry. church on the other hand can hire/retire and replace a pastor and the church will always be there.



no argument here.

One more time - women are not to teach men in any setting. That's what 1 Tim. 2:11-15 is teaching.

I went through her website - she's not *just* helping the poor, etc. She has a full teaching/preaching/equipping ministry. She's a church but not calling it that.

Jesus Christ gave us ONLY ONE ministry - the church. ALL ministries are to be UNDER a valid church, with a valid elder board, per the NT. Para-churches that are not under a valid church, are not pleasing Jesus Christ. AND, that's why there are so many problems with these ministries - they do not hold themselves accountable to churches. So, when sin occurs, you can't church discipline them, etc.

And, again, TONS of her own words showing that she's a false teacher.

You're definitely trying some very creative ways to get around 1 Tim. 2:11-15, but they are not valid, in-context, interpretations. If you want to please Christ as Paul did (2 Cor. 5:9), then simply lead your wife to a valid church.

Lastly, are you a member of a local church that you attend regularly, serve at regularly, and your primary financial support is going to?. Any / all of those would be major red flags if the answer is no.

[Barang]

Originally Posted by billvau

One more time - women are not to teach men in any setting. That's what 1 Tim. 2:11-15 is teaching.

I went through her website - she's not *just* helping the poor, etc. She has a full teaching/preaching/equipping ministry. She's a church but not calling it that.

Jesus Christ gave us ONLY ONE ministry - the church. ALL ministries are to be UNDER a valid church, with a valid elder board, per the NT. Para-churches that are not under a valid church, are not pleasing Jesus Christ. AND, that's why there are so many problems with these ministries - they do not hold themselves accountable to churches. So, when sin occurs, you can't church discipline them, etc.

"those who are not against us is for us". she is helping people with her ministry and her sermons are geared toward changing past behavior/mindset to Godly ways. her ministry tours different places including overseas to minister to the poor, hungry and in need. that's what she does.

you go to church to worship God, learn and be filled with His Word at least once a week.

You're definitely trying some very creative ways to get around 1 Tim. 2:11-15, but they are not valid, in-context, interpretations. If you want to please Christ as Paul did (2 Cor. 5:9), then simply lead your wife to a valid church.

we just have to agree to disagree too like trailerparkt on this one. i have no ill-will towards you as i consider you as my brother in Christ.

Lastly, are you a member of a local church that you attend regularly, serve at regularly, and your primary financial support is going to?. Any / all of those would be major red flags if the answer is no.

we tried to find one but nothing that feeds us spiritually. they are not false church, rather the depth of their sermons are lacking.

we learn more and spiritually fed by watching the late pastor adrian rogers, pastor david jeremiah, lamb and lion ministries and others. we support them monthly. if these churches are in our area, we will not hesitate to go there.

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Barang

"those who are not against us is for us". she is helping people with her ministry and her sermons are geared toward changing past behavior/mindset to Godly ways. her ministry tours different places including overseas to minister to the poor, hungry and in need. that's what she does.

you go to church to worship God, learn and be filled with His Word at least once a week.

we just have to agree to disagree too like trailerparkt on this one. i have no ill-will towards you as i consider you as my brother in Christ.

we tried to find one but nothing that feeds us spiritually. they are not false church, rather the depth of their sermons are lacking.

we learn more and spiritually fed by watching the late pastor adrian rogers, pastor david jeremiah, lamb and lion ministries and others. we support them monthly. if these churches are in our area, we will not hesitate to go there.

We'll end this here. You disagree with the Word of God in so many ways, on so many levels, so many places. I wish it were TT and I that you disagreed with. That wouldn't be as serious.

[socal m1 shooter]

Originally Posted by Barang

not once have i heard her preach that but if she did then i missed them. perhaps you can provide a link of the sermon/s and give an approximate time so that i can locate that section/s faster.

To be direct, you’re asking people in this thread to perform the due diligence you were obligated to do before you started supporting Joyce Meyer Ministries. We’re all called to do due diligence— all believers, part of stewardship— before supporting a ministry.

Too, you're getting consistent, reasoned opposition in this thread to JM. I think the appropriate response is to humbly consider what people are saying, as opposed to repeatedly stating that your wife and yourself have decided JM is OK, as if that is the standard. Being stiff-necked is never presented as something good in the Bible.

I would encourage you to pray seriously about this.

It has been mentioned a few times in the thread that there is abundant evidence, and there is. For example, you can see for yourself:

• John MacArthur naming specific false teachers (the segment on JM starts about 9 minutes in);
• A compilation of JM false teachings;
• A playlist of YouTube videos regarding the false teachings of Joyce Meyer.
• And many, many, more.

People do argue over the role of women in the church, but there is no argument regarding whether the Bible permits a woman to lead a church. It is forbidden, as other responders have documented. Voddie Baucham concurs.

More to it, if I am giving money to a ministry, I want to be sure they are good stewards of the gifts they receive, because I know I will be accountable for the resources God has given me to steward. Joyce Meyer Ministries gets a C grade ("donate with caution") from MinistryWatch. Is that because MinistryWatch is hostile to JMM?

Originally Posted by Barang

i will not defend joyce in that article dated 2015, what she said was falsehood. [...] her friendship with joel and paul osteen have nothing to do with her preaching.

Birds of a feather. The Mormons may have invited Ravi Zacharias to come speak in SLC, but that was before his situation became public knowledge. But generally speaking, false teachers identify each other by endorsing each other, and allowing each other to appear in their respective pulpits. It is because there’s nothing to be afraid of. The last thing any of them want is someone like John MacArthur confronting them from their own pulpit. 

As an aside, Justin Peters— a fierce critic of JM— wrote the following:

Originally Posted by Justin Peters

Do false teachers know that they are false, or are they deceived?

This is one of the most often asked questions I receive.

Some false teachers are blatant hucksters and snake-oil salesmen (and women). Some like Robert Tilton, Manasseh Jordan, Peter Popoff, and Dayna Muldoon are such obvious charlatans that not even TBN will put them on (though you will find many of them on The Word Network and BET).

Others, though, both know that they are deceiving people and are being deceived themselves. The Apostle Paul makes an interesting statement in 2 Timothy 3:13, "But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived." Some false teachers are both actively deceiving people and yet are being deceived themselves. Benny Hinn, I believe, is a perfect example of this. I have studied Hinn for over 20 years now. I know that he is actively deceiving people. He knows that when he claims his father was the major of Jaffa, Israel, that he really wasn't. He knows that when he claims that he along with an Episcopal priest healed every sick person in a hospital in Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, Canada that such an event never happened. He knows that the people he proclaims to be healed on the platform at his crusades are not really healed. He knows that he is actively deceiving people. And, yet, he is also being deceived himself.

After having studied him for so long and after having attended so many of his crusades, I believe that there is a part of Benny Hinn that thinks he is doing the right thing. There is a part of him that believes he is really doing the Lord's work. Have you ever heard it said that if you tell a lie often enough that you begin to believe it yourself? I think Benny Hinn and many others such as Kenneth Copeland, Joel Osteen, etc. at some level believe they are legitimate. And yet they also know that they are deceiving people. Both of these dynamics can be at work in the same person. So are they deceiving or are they themselves deceived? Yes.

Maybe the same applies to JM?

[colossians323]

Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash

No, I don’t feel that there are necessarily “fake” Christian’s becasue they may listen to JM. I don’t personally know you but based on what you’ve stated, I have no reason to doubt your Christianity. Regardless, it doesn’t matter what I think, it’s what God knows about each individual’s heart is what matters most.

What I feel however is that JM does mislead her so called “flock” astray and preaches an unbiblical gospel. Most of the time, her followers and supporters don’t even realize that they are being respectfully and quite frankly, duped.

These two verses below, I think tell us Christian’s to be aware of what JM and other false teachers, actually “preach.” Just because JM (as well as countless other counterfeiters) may call out and use the Name of the Lord on sundays, doesn’t mean she’s calling out the True Lord and Savior of the Bible. They unfortunately preach a “false gospel” to unsuspecting followers.

Jeremiah 23:30-32
Therefore,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. 31 Yes,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, ‘The Lord declares.’ 32 Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” declares the Lord. “They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least,” declares the Lord.

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

We all need to be as vigilant and cautious like the Bereans in Acts 17:10-15, who always “checked the scriptures” to verify what Paul was preaching to them.

So as one who is not familiar with Joyce Meyers, please post up her false teaching for those who don't know and can be warned with the evidence of this instead of hearsay. Iron sharpens iron brothers!

ETA, thanks, I should have kept reading before posting

[TrailerparkTrash]

Originally Posted by colossians323

So as one who is not familiar with Joyce Meyers, please post up her false teaching for those who don't know and can be warned with the evidence of this instead of hearsay. Iron sharpens iron brothers!

ETA, thanks, I should have kept reading before posting

All good brother.

[skilletboy]

Anyways... back to the OP's question....

I've been in and out of ministry for about 15 years. Here is a smattering of books that I've either attended in a small group or led as it's leader:



A classic. Simply the best all around book on prayer from one of the best authors. It's a very comprehensive book on the topic and for my money there is nothing you can teach Christ followers that will benefit them more than helping them grow in intimacy with God, other than helping them remove the barriers that keep them distant.



A great book that looks at the life of Jeremiah and talk about the best thing we can learn from Jeremiah is the way he lived in his calling before God and not to measure it (or ourselves) as man's eyes.



Another classic. What can be said about this book. If you haven't read it, stop now and go read it.



Another excellent book by a classic author. Henri Nouwen spent some extended time pondering the masterpiece Rembrandt tapestry of the Prodigal Son in Russia and decided to write an entire book about God as our Father and us as sons. Powerful book.

[green grunt]

"Steps to Christ" was a good read ...