M1 T26 marked "Experimental"

[slick44]

I had an older woman bring this by my shop today and ask me what it's worth...said her dad had it after WWII and her never fired it...it looked like it was mint condition and kept very well. No brand name or serial numbers except on the bolt but markings on the action are distinctive...appreciate any answers.

I have a bunch more pictures also.

http://grecosinc.com/uploads/Grenade...110_151534.jpg

http://grecosinc.com/uploads/Grenade...110_151608.jpg

http://grecosinc.com/uploads/Grenade...110_151620.jpg

[SkyHawk]

my gut tells me it may be very valuable


I'm sure everyone here is going to want to see all the pics, this could be something special that we see auctioned off by Rock Island, and we can say we saw it here first

[Quiet]

AFAIK...
Only 150 PWB M1 rifles (18" barrel, cut down front handguard, standard rifle stock) were made by the 6th US Army Group in the Philippines and tested in the Pacific theater during WW2 (1944-1945).
There are only two documented PWB M1 rifles that survived and they are both in museums.

It could be a reproduction, because all of the authentic PWB M1 rifles were made using Springfield Armory made/marked receivers.

[Capybara]

That is a super cool rifle! I think I may have seen these models mentioned in the history of Garand development in a book somewhere. I can't recall where I saw it but I agree, I think this could be a unicorn.

[freonr22]

Awesomeness

[slick44]

Yeah I read about the contract to the Philippines for 150-200 modified M1's but there were a 2-3 factory test models produced...one blew up...another is in the Springfield museum and if there was a third they don't know what happened to it...and why would her dad have it after WWII? To me it looks real....I have a few M1 Garands and sold some real beauty's...but my gut tells me it's too good to be true...I'd like to verify it some how...

[SoldierLife7]

That's really cool.

I hope someone here is able to help identify it and put a value on it...

[IronsightsRifleman]

Very cool, thanks for sharing.

[Quiet]

Originally Posted by slick44

Yeah I read about the contract to the Philippines for 150-200 modified M1's but there were a 2-3 factory test models produced...one blew up...another is in the Springfield museum and if there was a third they don't know what happened to it...and why would her dad have it after WWII? To me it looks real....I have a few M1 Garands and sold some real beauty's...but my gut tells me it's too good to be true...I'd like to verify it some how...

According to the Springfield Armory National Historical Museum, only one T26 rifle was ever made and tested. There was an order for 15,000 T26 rifles but production never started due to WW2 ending.

Before they made the T26, Springfield Armory had made the M1E5 which had troubles during testing.
All surviving M1E5 are at the Springfield Armory National Historical Museum.

(top) Springfield Armory T26 (bottom) PWB M1


Springfield Armory M1E5

[slick44]

Here's a few more pictures...looks like a Rock Island serial on the Trigger group?

http://grecosinc.com/uploads/JC%20AU...110_152736.jpg

http://grecosinc.com/uploads/JC%20AU...110_152712.jpg

http://grecosinc.com/uploads/JC%20AU...110_152706.jpg

http://grecosinc.com/uploads/JC%20AU...110_152650.jpg

http://grecosinc.com/uploads/JC%20AU...110_152203.jpg

[Quiet]

Probably need to contact the Springfield Armory National Historical Museum or Cody Firearms Museum or NRA National Firearms Museum to have it examined to determine if its authentic.

Because if its authentic, contact an auction house (Morphy Auction, Rock Island Auction, etc) to have it sold for $$$$$$$.

[slick44]

Originally Posted by Quiet

According to the Springfield Armory National Historical Museum, only one T26 rifle was ever made and tested. There was an order for 15,000 T26 rifles but production never started due to WW2 ending.

Before they made the T26, Springfield Armory had made the M1E5 which had troubles during testing.
All surviving M1E5 are at the Springfield Armory National Historical Museum.

(top) Springfield Armory T26 (bottom) PWB M1


Springfield Armory M1E5

I read through the website and the story goes that they made a few of the M1E5 which didn't pass even the Springfield testing due to inaccuracies and fouling due to the slow burn powder back then...after the Philippine contract they went back to the drawing board and produced the T26...in which one blew up in testing and was scraped out the other IA in their museum...I could've sworn I read somewhere there was a 3rd T26 that never was found...can't find that read again of course...it's probably a reproduction but why the awesome looking label on the back and lack of serials on basically all other parts? It's a noodle scratcher to me...thank you for your input and replies...much obliged for that...wish I could figure out who produced it?

[slick44]

Originally Posted by Quiet

Probably need to contact the Springfield Armory National Historical Museum or Cody Firearms Museum or NRA National Firearms Museum to have it examined to determine if its authentic.

Because if its authentic, contact an auction house (Morphy Auction, Rock Island Auction, etc) to have it sold for $$$$$$$.

Sounds like good advice...I'll check it out tomorrow....that gives me a place to start thank you!

Minimum maybe I'll find out what to tell the nice elderly lady

[223556]

This is going to be interesting! I don’t think anyone said it yet but keep us updated!
Would love to hear more about this rifle.

[slick44]

Originally Posted by 223556

This is going to be interesting! I don’t think anyone said it yet but keep us updated!
Would love to hear more about this rifle.

Will do for sure....I'll post soon as I get some answers...or more questions Lol.

[kendog4570]

Blow up the first pic and take a real hard look at the characters. Sure do look like they are done with a CNC to me. Definitely not roll stamped.

How many CNC mills did the Pac War Board have back in 45?
Could also have been marked with a pantograph and be legit. I would like to see the rest of it in detail.

[SonofWWIIDI]

Originally Posted by slick44

I had an older woman bring this by my shop today and ask me what it's worth...said her dad had it after WWII and her never fired it...it looked like it was mint condition and kept very well. No brand name or serial numbers except on the bolt but markings on the action are distinctive...appreciate any answers.

I have a bunch more pictures also.

http://grecosinc.com/uploads/Grenade...110_151534.jpg

http://grecosinc.com/uploads/Grenade...110_151608.jpg

http://grecosinc.com/uploads/Grenade...110_151620.jpg

I would attempt to get as much historical information about the clients father as I could. That may determine a(n) direct/indirect connection.

Obviously if he worked on the project, or was peripherally connected to it would be great news. If he wasn’t, then you’ve got more work ahead.



Good luck.

[SkyHawk]

Originally Posted by kendog4570

Blow up the first pic and take a real hard look at the characters. Sure do look like they are done with a CNC to me. Definitely not roll stamped.

How many CNC mills did the Pac War Board have back in 45?
Could also have been marked with a pantograph and be legit. I would like to see the rest of it in detail.

I was also trying to get a good look at the letters but it is hard to say what is real and what is aliasing added by either the unknown camera and/or the image host or any photo editor that was in the mix.

But you would think if it was CNC then it should have a serial number and makers mark somewhere to be legal, and if the story is true (had it since after ww2) then it could not be cnc.

I don't see cnc here, it looks like it could be rolled but what do I know

[sandsnow]

Originally Posted by slick44

Sounds like good advice...I'll check it out tomorrow....that gives me a place to start thank you!

Minimum maybe I'll find out what to tell the nice elderly lady

You could try contacting Bruce Canfield or Scott Duff. Two well known experts on Garands

[BrokerB]

Weird, very good condition.

Just in case... I bid Tree fitty!

[Spyder]

Hell, even if reproduction, it's cool as heck and I want it!

[slick44]

Originally Posted by SonofWWIIDI

I would attempt to get as much historical information about the clients father as I could. That may determine a(n) direct/indirect connection.

Obviously if he worked on the project, or was peripherally connected to it would be great news. If he wasn’t, then you’ve got more work ahead.



Good luck.

Yes very good idea, I will give her a call this morning and find out everything she knows about her fathers service and when and where he actually came into position of the rifle.

[slick44]

Originally Posted by SkyHawk

I was also trying to get a good look at the letters but it is hard to say what is real and what is aliasing added by either the unknown camera and/or the image host or any photo editor that was in the mix.

But you would think if it was CNC then it should have a serial number and makers mark somewhere to be legal, and if the story is true (had it since after ww2) then it could not be cnc.

I don't see cnc here, it looks like it could be rolled but what do I know

That's exactly what's peeked my interest is there's no markers mark and no serial number on the rifle itself...the barrel looks to be made that length and not cut down...and yes it is in mint condition...while giving it a look I kept thinking to myself it looks new...the lady said she had someone tell her if it can be authenticated they'd give her $75K for it...she tends to want it to go to a museum if it's real.

[slick44]

Originally Posted by SkyHawk

I was also trying to get a good look at the letters but it is hard to say what is real and what is aliasing added by either the unknown camera and/or the image host or any photo editor that was in the mix.

But you would think if it was CNC then it should have a serial number and makers mark somewhere to be legal, and if the story is true (had it since after ww2) then it could not be cnc.

I don't see cnc here, it looks like it could be rolled but what do I know

Wonder what the BD. would stand for??

[SkyHawk]

Originally Posted by slick44

Wonder what the BD. would stand for??

My first guess is "Board"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand

Nonetheless, by late 1944 the Pacific Warfare Board (PWB) decided to move forward with the development of a shortened M1 rifle.

[SkyHawk]

The one thing that has me questioning the marks are how perfect they are (spacing, alignment etc). In the M1E5 example that Quiet gave, you can see the stamping was likely done by hand as would be expected for only a handful of rifles to be so marked.

In order for the markings we see in the OP to be so perfect, they would have had to make a die. I am not sure why they would do that if only a few rifles were to be marked as such

[slick44]

Originally Posted by SkyHawk

The one thing that has me questioning the marks are how perfect they are (spacing, alignment etc). In the M1E5 example that Quiet gave, you can see the stamping was likely done by hand as would be expected for only a handful of rifles to be so marked.

In order for the markings we see in the OP to be so perfect, they would have had to make a die. I am not sure why they would do that if only a few rifles were to be marked as such

Yeah I've questioned that myself, at the same time I question why no makers mark or serial numbers? I need to get a hold of her to find out a more thorough history of her dad and the rifle...once I get everything she knows I'll start calling or emailing people. She came in yesterday towards the end of the day and I was so intrigued by the rifle I let her get away without asking all the questions I knew I'd need. She was not about to leave it with me, I asked but she she said no, she also said she has a 1937 "1911" with the factory box! But she didn't bring it with her!

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by slick44

she tends to want it to go to a museum if it's real.

Very cool. Good for her.

[kendog4570]

It could very well be legit.

About 12 years ago a shop that I used to do some random work for had an Ainsworth inspected 7-1/2" Colt Single Action come out of the woodwork. 1874 production, not a known Custer gun. Came into their shop in a box in pieces. Shop owner didn't know exactly what he bought and wanted me to refinish and assemble it. After looking in the box and a few cursory inspections of the various parts, I said hold up here! Turns out it was all there and basically unfired. The external was very brown, but the insides were as new as I have ever seen. Carefully put it back together and it sold to a very knowledgeable collector for $10500 as a 10% gun.He said the inspectors stamp on the stocks was one of the best Ainsworth's he'd ever seen. If we had refinished it we could have multiplied is value by 1/4!


Between this rifle and the phantom 1911 it sounds like the lady knows more than she is letting on...

[kendog4570]

Originally Posted by SkyHawk

The one thing that has me questioning the marks are how perfect they are (spacing, alignment etc)....

Thats what I was thinking. Look real close and you can see what appear to be rotational tools marks in the letters, like it was done on a modern programmable mill. Of course, this could have also been done at that time with a motorized engraver like a New Hermes.

Would the ordnance people simply stamp further ID marks in with the existing roll stamps of a run of the mill receiver? Or would they completely mechanically scrub the heel and remark it as such? I'm thinking the former, unless this was some kind of presentation piece to an acceptance board and prettied up as much as they could.
The top of the A in "WAR" is applied over a ding and the finish is in both, and the heel looks like it was scrubbed. Also, the op rod joint weld sticks out noticeably. Overall in the pictures provided it looks in excellent condition.

[beerman]

This is by far, the most intriguing post ever on the C&R board. Thanks for sharing it… it looks legit to me. Note the weird gas cylinder.

[kendog4570]

Originally Posted by slick44

Here's a few more pictures...looks like a Rock Island serial on the Trigger group?...

That is a part drawing number and the manufacturer of the hammer. WRA for Winchester.That stamped trigger guard was not made until way after the war.


I stand corrected. Looks like SA started stamped TG's at the end of WW2. And this one has a milled latch.

[slick44]

Originally Posted by kendog4570

Thats what I was thinking. Look real close and you can see what appear to be rotational tools marks in the letters, like it was done on a modern programmable mill. Of course, this could have also been done at that time with a motorized engraver like a New Hermes.

Would the ordnance people simply stamp further ID marks in with the existing roll stamps of a run of the mill receiver? Or would they completely mechanically scrub the heel and remark it as such? I'm thinking the former, unless this was some kind of presentation piece to an acceptance board and prettied up as much as they could.
The top of the A in "WAR" is applied over a ding and the finish is in both, and the heel looks like it was scrubbed. Also, the op rod joint weld sticks out noticeably. Overall in the pictures provided it looks in excellent condition.

On the op rod weld it was finished so smooth I couldn't even feel it or catch a finger nail across it! That was another point that made me raise an eye brow!

[joefrank64k]

Here's my guess: It's a repro.

It's too new looking.

The 'engraving/stamping/roll mark' don't look right.

The trigger guard doesn't look right

The OP rod looks weird.

If I'm right, I'll take the humped-up rifle as payment

If I'm wrong, I'll buy myself another gun

[slick44]

Originally Posted by kendog4570

That is a part drawing number and the manufacturer of the hammer. WRA for Winchester.That stamped trigger guard was not made until way after the war.


I stand corrected. Looks like SA started stamped TG's at the end of WW2.

Okay I appreciate that info thank you...

[slick44]

Originally Posted by joefrank64k

Here's my guess: It's a repro.

It's too new looking.

The 'engraving/stamping/roll mark' don't look right.

The trigger guard doesn't look right

The OP rod looks weird.

If I'm right, I'll take the humped-up rifle as payment

If I'm wrong, I'll buy myself another gun

Hahahaha...I don't think I'll bite on that wager but thank you anyway Lol...the "looks too new" thing is what I was thinking all along...but I'd never seen markings like that and no "makers mark" and no serial number? Who in their right mind would manufacture without serializing? I'm an 07 FFL myself and I know I'd never think of such a thing!

[slick44]

She's supposed to call me back after she has her coffee...I'll post the answers she provides...thank you all for your input...been great...I forgot how much I missed Cal Gunners!

[kendog4570]

Originally Posted by joefrank64k

...The trigger guard doesn't look right....

Thats the only part that does!

[joefrank64k]

Originally Posted by kendog4570

Thats the only part that does!

Haha!!

Typed too fast...trigger group doesn't look right (too new, like the rest of the rifle)

And like the OP said, no serial #?? On a gov/mil weapon sample?? Hmmm...

Though it would be cool to be proven wrong and have this be some sort of missing link!!

[RNE228]

Would CMP be any help with unusual requests like this?