Primer and Powder legalities

[ARDude]

Someone told me the other day (gun shop employee..no, not Turners) that you're not allowed to have more than 200 primers and 5 pounds of smokeless powder in your home!!

I have never heard of that. They couldn't cite a law. Just that they believed it to be true.

Anybody ever heard of any rules/laws on how much powder/primers are allowed?

[tabascoz28]

Different areas have different limits I think. I think it's 16lbs in Sacramento County, but then you put it in a separate wooden box and you can have more. 200 primers is 2 small sleeves, I think that's some stores limits.

[JackEllis]

If you read through the threads in this forum over the last five years or so, you'll find posts with sources attached that claim there's no limit on primers and a 20 pound limit on powder, although IIRC you can store more if it is in a cabinet that's made of wood at least an inch thick.

I have a few thousand primers and some powder. If a wildfire is approaching, I will place the powder in a vented plastic box away from the house with warning signs attached and hope for the best.

Whatever you do, don't ever store powder and/or primers in a metal enclosure that is sealed, including old fridges and metal ammo cans. If the powder and primers catch fire, you want the gasses that are generated by combustion to escape. If those gasses are contained in an enclosure that is even close to air tight, you've just made a bomb. The logic behind a wooden cabinet is that the inside temperature will rise more slowly and may not ever get high enough to ignite the powder.

[Ishooter]

Someone probably gave bad information to you. What can 200 primers do?

[Kurgan]

200 primers? That's not even rookie numbers.

[Toxic Shock]

Don't believe any gun law advise that some counter monkey tells you in a gun store. I've met salesmen that didn't know the difference between a rimfire and a centerfire cartridge. I've met another salesman that told me that doing a firearms transfer for a Mauser receiver would cost $600. I could go on, but the misinformation and lack of critical thinking would fill books. If they're telling you something and your BS meter is pegging, don't even bother trying correct them: when you win an argument with an idiot, you haven't really won anything.

[pacrat]

OP, this just shows that Turdner's the only firearms retailer isn't the only place that hires.

COUNTER MONKEYS

[glassparman]

Yep, don't store air tight, especially OLD powder . . . . ask me how I know.

[pennstater]

That was painful to see. Geez!

MLC

[whutsup40]

Originally Posted by glassparman

Yep, don't store air tight, especially OLD powder . . . . ask me how I know.

OUCH!! That s**cks.

[Divernhunter]

I store quite a bit of powder (and primers) in air tight containers---That is called loaded ammo.

[BAJ475]

Never heard of not storing powder in sealed containers. It comes that way!

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by BAJ475

Never heard of not storing powder in sealed containers. It comes that way!

The containers that powder comes in will vent at very low pressure.
When we talk about storing those containers in a sealed container, we are talking about containers that would NOT vent at low pressure.
The standard powder magazine is made of wood boards that will come apart well before explosive pressures can be reached.
Flammable chemical cabinets made of metal have special plugs that will pop out to vent pressure so they do not turn into bombs.

[divingin]

That info should be available through your local/county/state fire code (all 3, not either/or.) It can be a PITA to look up though.

I did research either the Oakland or Fremont area once, a long time ago. I recall finding 20# for a powder limit; don't recall primers even being listed as a stored material.

[mikeyr]

I don't think there are any laws about storage of primers and powder, there are fire rules and they vary by county. The only consistent one I am aware of is 5lbs of black powder. The fire marshal is where I would ask if there are any rules for your area.

pre-covid I had about 20,000 primers in the garage and enough powder to make all those bullets, after 4 years of regularly shooting, i am finally running low and will have to buy next year, hopefully the prices will have dropped to only slightly outrageous by then. I was told by the fire guys I was perfectly legal after they checked with someone higher up.

[tsoso]

I guess we are all going to jail if theres a 200 primer limit just keep your mouth shut and you should be fine

[divingin]

Originally Posted by tsoso

I guess we are all going to jail if theres a 200 primer limit just keep your mouth shut and you should be fine

Pretty much what a friend was told when asking a fire marshall (off the record) about the 200-odd pounds of powder he had at his house. The guy to make sure you store it all together so that if it does go up, there's no evidence left to incriminate you.

[JagerDog]

Originally Posted by glassparman

Yep, don't store air tight, especially OLD powder . . . . ask me how I know.

Ouch.

But not sure the air tight had much to do with it. Still burns hot and fast, just not a "bomb".

Was this powder forming nitro crystals?


Most ordinances adopt NFPA guidelines(?) which allow 20#. 50# if in a powder magazine to their specs (1" min wood). Never seen a limit on primers, though they should remain in mfg packaging which is designed to limit hazards.

IIRC, black powder had lower thresholds (like 5# free and 20# in magazine). Black powder substitutes were classified as smokeless.

[Citadelgrad87]

There are probably more than 200 dropped primers in various nooks and crannies in my garage, and I sweep regularly.

[JagerDog]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

The containers that powder comes in will vent at very low pressure.
When we talk about storing those containers in a sealed container, we are talking about containers that would NOT vent at low pressure.
The standard powder magazine is made of wood boards that will come apart well before explosive pressures can be reached.
Flammable chemical cabinets made of metal have special plugs that will pop out to vent pressure so they do not turn into bombs.

I'll add that the 1" (min) wood will take awhile to be consumed (allowing fire in contact with powder) and doesn't transfer heat well.

[Duck Killer]

Originally Posted by glassparman

Yep, don't store air tight, especially OLD powder . . . . ask me how I know.

That looks like a fire not explosion.

[sigstroker]

Originally Posted by JackEllis

If you read through the threads in this forum over the last five years or so, you'll find posts with sources attached that claim there's no limit on primers and a 20 pound limit on powder, although IIRC you can store more if it is in a cabinet that's made of wood at least an inch thick.

I have a few thousand primers and some powder. If a wildfire is approaching, I will place the powder in a vented plastic box away from the house with warning signs attached and hope for the best.

Whatever you do, don't ever store powder and/or primers in a metal enclosure that is sealed, including old fridges and metal ammo cans. If the powder and primers catch fire, you want the gasses that are generated by combustion to escape. If those gasses are contained in an enclosure that is even close to air tight, you've just made a bomb. The logic behind a wooden cabinet is that the inside temperature will rise more slowly and may not ever get high enough to ignite the powder.

Hell, take it with you!

[shamrock12]

Originally Posted by sigstroker

Hell, take it with you!

Exactly my thoughts as well!

[BAJ475]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

The containers that powder comes in will vent at very low pressure.
When we talk about storing those containers in a sealed container, we are talking about containers that would NOT vent at low pressure.
The standard powder magazine is made of wood boards that will come apart well before explosive pressures can be reached.
Flammable chemical cabinets made of metal have special plugs that will pop out to vent pressure so they do not turn into bombs.

OK, I would not store in a "sealed container" other than the original factory container.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by BAJ475

OK, I would not store in a "sealed container" other than the original factory container.

That is what we call a "best practice" in the industry.
It's recommended to NEVER repackage powder.
Only use the factory packaging with the original lot number marked on it.

[pacrat]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

That is what we call a "best practice" in the industry.
It's recommended to NEVER repackage powder.
Only use the factory packaging with the original lot number marked on it.

I'm sure glad it wasn't always so. Or there would be no "HODGDON" today.

And I would have missed out on all the bulk priced IMR 4895 and 4064 for $1.50 a pound. By bringing a coffee can or milk jug to "Universal Arms" in Paramount for a fill up.

[Mayor McRifle]

Originally Posted by ARDude

Anybody ever heard of any rules/laws on how much powder/primers are allowed?

See Section 5606 of the California Fire Code: https://up.codes/viewer/california/c...fireworks#5606

[BIGOX]

Originally Posted by Mayor McRifle

See Section 5606 of the California Fire Code: https://up.codes/viewer/california/c...fireworks#5606

Kind of surprised no one has posted this link until now.


5606.4.1 Black Powder

Black powder for personal use in quantities not exceeding 20 pounds (9 kg) shall be stored in original containers in occupancies limited to Group R-3. Quantities exceeding 20 pounds (9 kg) shall not be stored in any Group R occupancy.

5606.4.2 Smokeless Propellants

Smokeless propellants for personal use in quantities not exceeding 20 pounds (9 kg) shall be stored in original containers in occupancies limited to Group R-3. Smokeless propellants in quantities exceeding 20 pounds (9 kg) but not exceeding 50 pounds (23 kg) and kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of not less than 1 inch (25 mm) nominal thickness shall be allowed to be stored in occupancies limited to Group R-3. Quantities exceeding these amounts shall not be stored in any Group R occupancy.

5606.4.3 Small Arms Primers

Not more than 10,000 small arms primers shall be stored in occupancies limited to group R3.


I'm pretty sure the clerk OP spoke with was probably referring to this and the stores personal limits they have placed on items an individual can buy per day.

[SharedShots]

Originally Posted by BIGOX

Kind of surprised no one has posted this link until now.


5606.4.1 Black Powder

Black powder for personal use in quantities not exceeding 20 pounds (9 kg) shall be stored in original containers in occupancies limited to Group R-3. Quantities exceeding 20 pounds (9 kg) shall not be stored in any Group R occupancy.

5606.4.2 Smokeless Propellants

Smokeless propellants for personal use in quantities not exceeding 20 pounds (9 kg) shall be stored in original containers in occupancies limited to Group R-3. Smokeless propellants in quantities exceeding 20 pounds (9 kg) but not exceeding 50 pounds (23 kg) and kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of not less than 1 inch (25 mm) nominal thickness shall be allowed to be stored in occupancies limited to Group R-3. Quantities exceeding these amounts shall not be stored in any Group R occupancy.

5606.4.3 Small Arms Primers

Not more than 10,000 small arms primers shall be stored in occupancies limited to group R3.


I'm pretty sure the clerk OP spoke with was probably referring to this and the stores personal limits they have placed on items an individual can buy per day.

Before relying on the above, maybe check out occupancy groups and then see which one applies to a private residential garage for example.

Some of you still live in your garage? Wasn't that a Millennial thing?







.

[AAShooter]

Two issues: Local regulations/laws and Homeowners Insurance requirements. Check both.

[tlavino]

Originally Posted by SharedShots

Before relying on the above, maybe check out occupancy groups and then see which one applies to a private residential garage for example.

Some of you still live in your garage? Wasn't that a Millennial thing?







.

R-3 is a residential dwelling:

https://www3.iccsafe.org/cs/committe...U_06_50_07.pdf

See also my previous post a few years ago re: CA Health and safety code vs. fire code as there are conflicts between the two…

[tlavino]

Originally Posted by SharedShots

Before relying on the above, maybe check out occupancy groups and then see which one applies to a private residential garage for example.

Some of you still live in your garage? Wasn't that a Millennial thing?







.

R-3 is a residential dwelling:

https://www3.iccsafe.org/cs/committe...U_06_50_07.pdf

See also my previous post a few years ago re: CA Health and safety code vs. fire code as there are conflicts between the two…

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...uantity&page=3

[JackEllis]

Originally Posted by sigstroker

Hell, take it with you!

If I had plenty of notice, maybe. If I have to get out of Dodge in a hurry, no. Powder in a vehicle that's stuck in traffic with fire on both sides of the road = barbecue.

[sigstroker]

Originally Posted by JackEllis

If I had plenty of notice, maybe. If I have to get out of Dodge in a hurry, no. Powder in a vehicle that's stuck in traffic with fire on both sides of the road = barbecue.

If the inside of your car is hot enough to ignite smokeless powder, the stuff in your car is the least of your problems.

[divingin]

Originally Posted by JackEllis

Powder in a vehicle that's stuck in traffic with fire on both sides of the road = barbecue.

If you vent it right, it's "rocket assisted evacuation".