AR pistol VS SBR questions

[desertjosh]

I apologize in advance for not keeping up with the latest gun news. Are pistol braces going to be illegal soon? Should I start the SBR process? Would a rifle lower qualify for a SBR? I also have an 80% lower, but I'd rather use the rifle one. I wasn't sure where to post these questions so mods move if needed. Thanks!

[bender152]

1. The final ATF ruling on pistol braces is expected in December 2022.
Since the ruling hasn't come down yet, nothing is certain.

2. Without getting into all the details, it is expected that pistol braces will be a no-go after their ruling.

3. Supposedly, the ATF will have an amnesty period that will allow you to register braced-pistols as SBRs and you will not have to pay the $200 tax stamp. (Again supposedly, you will have to take pics of your pistol with a brace on it and submit it to the ATF.)

If the above is true, owners are divided on whether or not they will register their pistol during this amnesty period. Some people don't want to provide proof that their pistol was in a configuration that the ATF deemed "illegal".

4. If there is indeed an amnesty period, expect a ton of SBR applications to flood in at that time. People will take advantage of the free tax stamp and register multiple guns.

Current Form 1 (SBR) wait times are somewhere around 80 days. A flood of applications will make that number balloon up instantly. A one-year wait time wouldn't be outrageous to me. (The eForm 4 applications started off with 90 day approvals at the beginning of this year. The current average is now 225 days.)

5. You can SBR a pistol or rifle lower.


Should you submit your SBR application now?

This is just my opinion, but I say "yes". If paying for the $200 tax stamp isn't going to significantly impact you, then it's worth it just to avoid the extended wait times that are sure to come if/when the amnesty period goes live.

Or you can wait and see if the ruling gets challenged. But again, even if the challenge is successful, it may take a while for the case to get heard.

[nikonmike5]

I’m seeing a delay right now of over 4 months…

[sigstroker]

To get free registration it has to be a pistol. If you haven ordinary AR-15 or SCAR or whatever, that's a rifle, you don't get in for free. It's only for people with a braced pistol that got screwed over. I think I read that somewhere in the AFT crap they had online.

I'm hoping somewhere a court says they can't do this, but I'm not filled with optimism. What's just and right doesn't seem to count for anything any more.

[Mac Attack]

I agree with what everybody else has said. If you can afford it now I would submit your form 1. There is no guarantee that the ATF will grant amnesty or that they would give out a free $200 stamp to all that applied. But if they did, how many millions of people would jump on the bandwagon and register as many receivers as they could just because it was free..Millions I suppose. How long do you think it would take for the people at 244 Needy Rd, Martinsburg, WV to process those millions of applications? In 2020 it used to take less than 2 weeks to get an approval, this year it took me 61 days. I can imagine after the open it up, we are talking years for approval!

If you want to SBR an AR I would submit at least 1 receiver now so that you at least can swap it around to your different uppers. Then submit the rest if there is an amnesty with free stamp. I for one will submit everything I have from a .22 up to bigbores.

[Nvberinger]

Originally Posted by Mac Attack

But if they did, how many millions of people would jump on the bandwagon and register as many receivers as they could just because it was free..Millions I suppose.

If we had 5, 7, or 10 million, that could create a "common use" argument which could void the NFA act as unconstitutional.

[beanz2]

Originally Posted by desertjosh

I apologize in advance for not keeping up with the latest gun news. Are pistol braces going to be illegal soon? Should I start the SBR process? Would a rifle lower qualify for a SBR? I also have an 80% lower, but I'd rather use the rifle one. I wasn't sure where to post these questions so mods move if needed. Thanks!

If you already own a SBR AR lower, and if that lower was transferred to you as a “Pistol” or “Other”, I’d build it into a braced pistol just in case the free tax stamp happens, and wait for the pistol brace ruling to be announced. Not into a plain pistol, but a braced pistol with enough features to gain enough points to qualify. Few reasons for this. One, you are already under the NFA registry. Two, avail yourself to the free tax stamp. Three, you can easily revert back to a braceless pistol in case you have to cross state lines, or carry it loaded in your car (in most states).

If you don’t already have a SBR AR lower, I agree with what bender152 and Mac Attack mentioned above, weigh the inconvenience of waiting for a much longer approval time vs. the already bloated wait time as it is now for the possible free tax stamp. My East German MPiKM Form 1 was approved in 23 days, submitted on 8/26. Not record time, but not too bad.

If your AR lower was transferred as a “Rifle“, definitely I would Form 1 it now. No use in waiting at all.

[desertjosh]

Originally Posted by beanz2

If you already own a SBR AR lower, and if that lower was transferred to you as a “Pistol” or “Other”, I’d build it into a braced pistol just in case the free tax stamp happens, and wait for the pistol brace ruling to be announced. Not into a plain pistol, but a braced pistol with enough features to gain enough points to qualify. Few reasons for this. One, you are already under the NFA registry. Two, avail yourself to the free tax stamp. Three, you can easily revert back to a braceless pistol in case you have to cross state lines, or carry it loaded in your car (in most states).

If you don’t already have a SBR AR lower, I agree with what bender152 and Mac Attack mentioned above, weigh the inconvenience of waiting for a much longer approval time vs. the already bloated wait time as it is now for the possible free tax stamp. My East German MPiKM Form 1 was approved in 23 days, submitted on 8/26. Not record time, but not too bad.

If your AR lower was transferred as a “Rifle“, definitely I would Form 1 it now. No use in waiting at all.

All my AR lowers are either unmarked 80% or rifle lowers. I also do not own a pistol brace yet. I was looking to buy one to change out my pistol buffer tube and stumbled across the ATF news. I'm really leaning towards the tax stamp route. And maybe buying a cheap brace instead of the $100 one I was going to buy JIC the tax stamp fee is waived after their decision. Thoughts?

[ACfixer]

My AR pistol has a brace... I should probably take "advantage" of this, once it's an SBR then, well then the "brace could be changed to a stock right?

[desertjosh]

Originally Posted by ACfixer

My AR pistol has a brace... I should probably take "advantage" of this, once it's an SBR then, well then the "brace could be changed to a stock right?

Yep

[beanz2]

Originally Posted by desertjosh

All my AR lowers are either unmarked 80% or rifle lowers. I also do not own a pistol brace yet. I was looking to buy one to change out my pistol buffer tube and stumbled across the ATF news. I'm really leaning towards the tax stamp route. And maybe buying a cheap brace instead of the $100 one I was going to buy JIC the tax stamp fee is waived after their decision. Thoughts?

If I were to just have one brace, I'd get a nice one, just in case the pistol brace regulation scheme falls on its face. If a court issues an injunction to block it at least you have a nice brace to use, not an el cheapo that you hate to use.

In case the regulation goes through and remains enforced/enforceable, the brace will serve just fine on your registered SBR too. Just be ready for know-it-alls to threaten to call the ATF on you at the range LOL

[sigstroker]

Originally Posted by desertjosh

All my AR lowers are either unmarked 80% or rifle lowers. I also do not own a pistol brace yet. I was looking to buy one to change out my pistol buffer tube and stumbled across the ATF news. I'm really leaning towards the tax stamp route. And maybe buying a cheap brace instead of the $100 one I was going to buy JIC the tax stamp fee is waived after their decision. Thoughts?

To be clear the tax is only "waived" if you haven't paid it yet. If you reg it before they "waive" it, your 200 bucks is spent, you won't get it back.

[desertjosh]

Originally Posted by sigstroker

To be clear the tax is only "waived" if you haven't paid it yet. If you reg it before they "waive" it, your 200 bucks is spent, you won't get it back.

Sure, but you can register more than 1 SBR right?

[beanz2]

Originally Posted by sigstroker

To be clear the tax is only "waived" if you haven't paid it yet. If you reg it before they "waive" it, your 200 bucks is spent, you won't get it back.

Ack tually... you can get your money back if you never built the gun into an SBR.

Originally Posted by ATF E-Form 5320.1, page 6, Item 5

Cancellation of Approved Application. An approved application may be cancelled only if the firearm had not been made or modified. The maker must return the approved application with original tax stamp affixed with a written request for cancellation, citing the need and that the making of the firearm did not take place. The NFA Branch will arrange for a refund of any tax paid.

[sigstroker]

Well, I'll be. That's one way to go then. Get the approval as soon as you can. Then there will be no long wait if AFT doesn't make the new rule, but it would only be a couple months later. If they make the new rule, you would have to cancel the Form, get a refund, then immediately re-apply for free and hope they don't notice you just canceled the earlier Form.

[bender152]

Well, now it's looking like there will NOT be a free SBR registration period.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-Yt...shingtonGunLaw

Regardless, if you were already planning on SBR'ing your lower, it would be a good idea to do it in the very near future. Free tax stamp or not, once the ruling comes down, there will be a long line of people submitting their SBR applications.

Once again, nothing official has come out yet, so all of this is still subject to change.

[beanz2]

Yea, I was actually surprised that the ATF under Biden would forgo all that money they can squeeze from their most disliked demographic. I hope the outcome of the midterm elections might affect that a bit, whether the Democrat Party realizes how much control they have over the government, or not.

[desertjosh]

So are you guys printing out the form and mailing it in? What is the best way to turn them in and pay them the tax stamp?

[beanz2]

Originally Posted by desertjosh

So are you guys printing out the form and mailing it in? What is the best way to turn them in and pay them the tax stamp?

eForm

Pay online with a credit card.

But you still have to mail in fingerprint samples (FD-258)

[SaltyGod]

Hi guys. Apologies for the newbie question. How does the ATF rule differ to California's, when it comes to building an AR pistol? Can I put a short stock on there?

[sigstroker]

[beanz2]

Originally Posted by SaltyGod

Hi guys. Apologies for the newbie question. How does the ATF rule differ to California's, when it comes to building an AR pistol? Can I put a short stock on there?

Not the best forum to ask about CA laws. Most here have escaped and done their best to forget CA laws. I’m 100% sure CA will not change their laws to accommodate the new ATF pistol brace ruling. And I believe the ATF will not approve an SBR application from a CA resident for whom SBRs are not allowed.

As far as building an AR pistol from the bare receiver in CA, that’s a different subject, but adding a stock to an AR pistol is for most. I believe you need a Dangerous Weapons Permit from the state before ATF would give you permission. That in turn is allowed for a very narrow set of subjects, I believe only for law enforcement agencies and movie prop companies.

[Mac Attack]

I didn’t think about the SBR amnesty not being applicable for CA residence. That sucks! Californians might as well enjoy their braces pistols for as long as you can before the ATF makes them illegal to use without a stamp.

[ca_gunny]

The 11.5 upper and a milspec tube puts it right at 26" so I'm guessing we can keep the brace on it and run it as is since it's not impacted by this stupid new rule

[beanz2]

Originally Posted by ca_gunny

The 11.5 upper and a milspec tube puts it right at 26" so I'm guessing we can keep the brace on it and run it as is since it's not impacted by this stupid new rule

Form 4999 Section I - Prerequisites reads, "The weapon must have an overall length between 12 and 26 inches", then adds, "Length measured with all non-operational accessories removed"

So if you are exactly at 26", you will still be impacted by the rule.

[nitroxdiver]

Originally Posted by SaltyGod

Hi guys. Apologies for the newbie question. How does the ATF rule differ to California's, when it comes to building an AR pistol? Can I put a short stock on there?

There is a thread in “general gun discussions” titled “atf brace ruling” that would likely get you the answer you’re looking for. Over here on expats, most of us here don’t know about current ca law or research it. We started a separate brace thread here in expats so the legal waters don’t get cross contaminated with restrictive state laws vs what the feds are doing. What free staters are going to be able to do if this all goes through vs what ca members are going to be able to do are likely completely different. Good luck

[desertjosh]

I haven't heard any word on the ruling...

[mshill]

Op, since you are in a free state you should already have a couple SBR tax stamps or at least have a couple in process. A year ago the form 1 wait was about 28 days. Don't be cheap and wait for something that may never come. Use your rifle lower and get the process going.

[desertjosh]

Originally Posted by mshill

Op, since you are in a free state you should already have a couple SBR tax stamps or at least have a couple in process. A year ago the form 1 wait was about 28 days. Don't be cheap and wait for something that may never come. Use your rifle lower and get the process going.

I got the process rolling, but now am stuck on the CLEO form? I assume I tslk to a local sheriff?

[BAJ475]

Originally Posted by beanz2

If I were to just have one brace, I'd get a nice one, just in case the pistol brace regulation scheme falls on its face. If a court issues an injunction to block it at least you have a nice brace to use, not an el cheapo that you hate to use.

In case the regulation goes through and remains enforced/enforceable, the brace will serve just fine on your registered SBR too. Just be ready for know-it-alls to threaten to call the ATF on you at the range LOL

desertjosh is in Idaho. I doubt that anyone he might encounter at a range here would call ATF even if he was shooting an M4.

[mshill]

Originally Posted by desertjosh

I got the process rolling, but now am stuck on the CLEO form? I assume I tslk to a local sheriff?

Nope, you fill it out and send it to him. I actually called my Sheriffs Office and they told me they simply ****can them.

[nitroxdiver]

Originally Posted by mshill

Nope, you fill it out and send it to him. I actually called my Sheriffs Office and they told me they simply ****can them.

Correct. Just drop it off or mail it. 9/10 it’ll go in the garbage here.

[desertjosh]

I'm doing the e-form. So I guess I need to get all their info to fill it out. Kinda confusing lol

[nikonmike5]

Originally Posted by mshill

Op, since you are in a free state you should already have a couple SBR tax stamps or at least have a couple in process. A year ago the form 1 wait was about 28 days. Don't be cheap and wait for something that may never come. Use your rifle lower and get the process going.

If only it took a month…

And just keep in mind that once you have a NFA item you can’t take it out of state. There is paperwork involved.

[Loaded_Potato]

Originally Posted by desertjosh

I'm doing the e-form. So I guess I need to get all their info to fill it out. Kinda confusing lol

I just bought a couple suppressors. Silencer shop used the Idaho state police colonel to inform CLEO. If you'd like i can PM you the info they used. Name, address, etc.

I agree it is a little confusing. I'm still hesitant at starting a form 1.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[sigstroker]

Originally Posted by nikonmike5

If only it took a month…

And just keep in mind that once you have a NFA item you can’t take it out of state. There is paperwork involved.

He can put a 16" upper on it, it will change itself into a Title I firearm, and he can take it to another state w/out paperwork.

[desertjosh]

Originally Posted by Loaded_Potato

I just bought a couple suppressors. Silencer shop used the Idaho state police colonel to inform CLEO. If you'd like i can PM you the info they used. Name, address, etc.

I agree it is a little confusing. I'm still hesitant at starting a form 1.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Yeah if you wouldn't mind, that'd be great

[Loaded_Potato]

Originally Posted by desertjosh

Yeah if you wouldn't mind, that'd be great

PM Sent

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[colossians323]

Originally Posted by nikonmike5

If only it took a month…

And just keep in mind that once you have a NFA item you can’t take it out of state. There is paperwork involved.

Although you are correct, they are not that strict on the suppressors and SBR's.
Tis those evil machine guns that they worry about

[nikonmike5]

Still need ATF permission to take them out of state. And you got to give them a destination address.