As a Christian, do you believe in the Rapture?

[TrailerparkTrash]

Just a simple poll. I’m just curious to see who does and doesn’t.

Remember, C.S. Lewis made a great point years ago that’s relevant to this debate:

In core (Christian) essentials, we have UNITY, In non-essentials, we have LIBERTY. And in all things, we have CHARITY.

[Kokopelli]

I believe in a pre tribulation Harpazo (rapture - 1 Thessalonians 4:17) of the church before the tribulation starts. It will occur at the end of the church age.

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." Revelation 3:10

I believe in the second coming of Jesus Christ where he will return to rule earth for 1,000 years. (Revelation chapters 19 & 20)

[ZapThyCat]

Rapture is one of those extra-Biblical words that is used to describe something that's not fully understood (as evidenced as a "do you believe in it" question).

I believe in a "catching away", and that "in the blink of an eye, at the last trump", and the whole "two shall be going up a hill, and one of them disappears". Does that constitute a "rapture"?

I believe the clean and simple Baptist view of "Left Behind", where people all over are suddenly gone, is a little too trite and dogmatic.

Before Jesus' first coming, the Bible scholars were pretty sure how he was going to come and save them, they were looking for a messiah and they didn't recognize it when he did come. I fear that if I get too dogmatic in my beliefs, I just may miss it.

People say "pre trib" or "post trib". I'm "Pan trib". It'll all pan-out. Be ready regardless.

[RandyD]

I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, and we return with Christ at the end of the tribulation to commence His 1000 year reign.

[Garand Hunter]

Harpazo is not extra Biblical, its in the Latin Vulgate written by St Jerome. A looong time before the KJV. And a looong time before the current form of The Holy Roman Apostolic Catholic Church. And yes I am established in believing in the Rapture of the church believers in Jesus The Christ. Pre Trib.

Psalm 1

[Dezrat]

Pre tribulation Rapture and a 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth to follow the Great Tribulation.
To Believers confused about a Pre Trib Rapture I always say "don't worry, we'll explain it to you on the way up.."

[Barang]

yes for Rapture and 2nd Coming of Jesus to rule as King for 1,000 years.

[wpage]

"The future is uncertain, and the end is always near". Jim Morrison

The Bible spells it out. Only God the Father calls the shot.

[Garand Hunter]

Yes its coming, But.....Only when the Heavenly Father says GO. I remember telling folks here and there in the 1980s, You Will See 2000 come and go.....uh we did that 21+ years ago. I wasn't very popular with the " any minute now " folks. But as far as I sensed it will be after 2000, Lotsa other guys gals perceived that as well, just not around Contra Costa County in Cali.

Psalm 1

[Dirtlaw]

Trailer Park, I'm trusting that you are a believer. If so, you're good to go. Amen!

[2761377]

Originally Posted by Garand Hunter

Harpazo is not extra Biblical, its in the Latin Vulgate written by St Jerome. A looong time before the KJV. And a looong time before the current form of The Holy Roman Apostolic Catholic Church. And yes I am established in believing in the Rapture of the church believers in Jesus The Christ. Pre Trib.

Psalm 1

you do appreciate the contradiction in the bolded, right?

last I checked, Jerome does not have any Scripture credited to him.

And the church in Rome specializes in extra-Biblical doctrine.

which is the best way to describe the fevered imagining called "Rapture".

So, No, I do not believe in it.

[Kokopelli]

Originally Posted by Garand Hunter

Yes its coming, But.....Only when the Heavenly Father says GO. I remember telling folks here and there in the 1980s, You Will See 2000 come and go.....uh we did that 21+ years ago. I wasn't very popular with the " any minute now " folks. But as far as I sensed it will be after 2000, Lotsa other guys gals perceived that as well, just not around Contra Costa County in Cali.

Psalm 1

Yes. Amen.

If we study Hebrew culture, we understand what Jesus meant when He said, ”In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.” John 14:2-3.

A Hebrew groom would build a place for his betrothed attached to his father’s home. When the father saw that the bridegroom had completed the work to the father’s satisfaction, the father would tell the bridegroom, “Go and get your bride and bring her here.”

It all fits perfectly with Christ’s statement that no one knows the day or the hour except The Father in heaven.

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.“ Matthew 24:36

[TrailerparkTrash]

Originally Posted by Dirtlaw

Trailer Park, I'm trusting that you are a believer. If so, you're good to go. Amen!

Huge believer. But I just don’t believe or have seen any evidence in scripture that’s plain as day proving a “rapture” is coming. I only see that a “second coming” of Christ is coming and ALL will rise to see this event.

I used to believe in the rapture but then stopped listening to the likes of Tim LaHaye and other authors. Then I learned about Darby and Scofield in the 19th centuries and finally turned completely away from a “rapture” theory of any kind.

Jesus “spoke openly to the world” and He “NEVER spoke in secret.”
-John 18:20

The Rapture seems to have been “pulled” out from alleged “secrets” within the Bible, by many interpreters of the 19th and 20th centuries. It would be akin to me pulling out so called “proof” from chapters of the yellow pages phone book, then putting it all together and claiming profusely that “God prefers Dominos pizza to Papa John’s.”

Nobody can really make heads or tail definitively of a “rapture” occurring, however we are 100% certain that a second coming will take place. Again I say, Jesus does not speak to us in secret. There’s no code or passages to paste together and decipher about a “rapture.”

The good news however is that if I’m wrong or pro-rapture people are wrong, it doesn’t matter as it’s NOT part of core Christian values, necessary for salvation. We are free to interpret the rapture any way we want, as long as it doesn’t refute sound Christian doctrine. We all have liberty in this subject matter.

[bohoki]

sure i believe in the rapture i do not think i am worthy though

[Garand Hunter]

# 11 poster,
Your studies are lacking, he did write the Latin Vulgate. The word used was Harpazo. Chuck Missler can help with this, he has checked out but his study material is still around.

Psalm 1

[Kokopelli]

Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash

Huge believer. But I just don’t believe or have seen any evidence in scripture that’s plain as day proving a “rapture” is coming. I only see that a “second coming” of Christ is coming and ALL will rise to see this event.

I used to believe in the rapture but then stopped listening to the likes of Tim LaHaye and other authors. Then I learned about Darby and Scofield in the 19th centuries and finally turned completely away from a “rapture” theory of any kind.

Jesus “spoke openly to the world” and He “NEVER spoke in secret.”
-John 18:20

The Rapture seems to have been “pulled” out from alleged “secrets” within the Bible, by many interpreters of the 19th and 20th centuries. It would be akin to me pulling out so called “proof” from chapters of the yellow pages phone book, then putting it all together and claiming profusely that “God prefers Dominos pizza to Papa John’s.”

Nobody can really make heads or tail definitively of a “rapture” occurring, however we are 100% certain that a second coming will take place. Again I say, Jesus does not speak to us in secret. There’s no code or passages to paste together and decipher about a “rapture.”

The good news however is that if I’m wrong or pro-rapture people are wrong, it doesn’t matter as it’s NOT part of core Christian values, necessary for salvation. We are free to interpret the rapture any way we want, as long as it doesn’t refute sound Christian doctrine. We all have liberty in this subject matter.

The catching away of the church. The one Jesus talks about in the parable of the virgins. It’s right there in the book of Revelation. Chapters 1-3 are about the church and the church age. Chapter 4 begins with, “After this…” Well, after what? After the church age. The church is never mentioned again until the epilogue of Revelation. Why? Because the church is not on earth during the tribulation. The tribulation is the time of God’s anger upon wickedness. Jesus will not execute His wrath upon His bride as well. Like Lot being led out of Sodom before it’s destruction, it is not like God to punish the innocent with the wicked. “After this…” the calling up of the apostle John in Revelation 4 is what will happen to the church.

No, it is not a “non negotiable“ tenet of salvation. But the scriptures are very clear. A pre tribulation catching away of the church was taught throughout the history of the church from the apostles to before Darby. I could share the list if you like.

GTG

[socal m1 shooter]

Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash

Huge believer. But I just don’t believe or have seen any evidence in scripture that’s plain as day proving a “rapture” is coming. I only see that a “second coming” of Christ is coming and ALL will rise to see this event.

I used to believe in the rapture but then stopped listening to the likes of Tim LaHaye and other authors. Then I learned about Darby and Scofield in the 19th centuries and finally turned completely away from a “rapture” theory of any kind.

Jesus “spoke openly to the world” and He “NEVER spoke in secret.”
-John 18:20

The Rapture seems to have been “pulled” out from alleged “secrets” within the Bible, by many interpreters of the 19th and 20th centuries. It would be akin to me pulling out so called “proof” from chapters of the yellow pages phone book, then putting it all together and claiming profusely that “God prefers Dominos pizza to Papa John’s.”

Nobody can really make heads or tail definitively of a “rapture” occurring, however we are 100% certain that a second coming will take place. Again I say, Jesus does not speak to us in secret. There’s no code or passages to paste together and decipher about a “rapture.”

The good news however is that if I’m wrong or pro-rapture people are wrong, it doesn’t matter as it’s NOT part of core Christian values, necessary for salvation. We are free to interpret the rapture any way we want, as long as it doesn’t refute sound Christian doctrine. We all have liberty in this subject matter.

I would say I agree with you on some of this. I am not an expert, but I have read pretty convincing arguments from commentators for both sides. On the pre-trib side, Fruchtenbaum's Footsteps of the Messiah is impressive and compelling. Worth reading even if you have doubts about a pre-trib rapture. On the post-trib side, Brown and Keener's Not Afraid of the Antichrist is also very compelling. Many trenchant observations and hard questions for the pre-trib folks. But it seems that regardless of what side one chooses to agree with, it has very little practical impact on day-to-day Christian living. Greg Koukl says pretty much the same thing in a well-known piece.

The writers of the well-known Christian song "In Christ Alone" captured the way I now consider the rapture pretty well: "‘Til he returns or calls me home/Here, in the power of Christ, I stand." In other words, I'll find out sooner or later, but for now, I have other, more important and pressing concerns.

[IronsightsRifleman]

Originally Posted by bohoki

sure i believe in the rapture i do not think i am worthy though

No one is worthy; you are saved not by your merit but by God's grace, through your faith. If you could be saved by merit there would have been no need for the cross, and Jesus' sacrifice would hold no meaning.

[Garand Hunter]

Good insight Bro !

Psalm 1

[Kokopelli]

Good morning everyone!

The belief of a pretribulation rapture of the church is not something new. In fact, it is shown in scripture. It was taught for centures and believed by leaders in the faith before the 1800's.

Now, the term, “Premillenialist” means someone who believes Christ will return just before His millennial (thousand year) reign on earth. In reality, the early church believed in a “Pretribulation” return of Christ for His “Bride” the church, composed of believing Christians. The tribulation is a seven-year period of God’s wrath, foretold by the prophet Daniel that occurs before the millennial reign of Christ. This return is called the rapture. (Greek: harpazo = Latin: rapture) Saint Victorius, Bishop of Petau, wrote of the pretribulation return when he wrote a Revelation commentary about the church being taken out. So did Pseudo Ephraem in AD 372.

These were not mere theories of men but actual teachings from the Bible itself. In John 14:1-3 Jesus says he will return for His own. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 says that Christ will come for His people then, in 1 Thessalonians 5:3, comes the destruction and verse 9 calls it God’s wrath. This is verified by 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 and James 5:7-9, all of which speak of the pretribulation return of Christ. Its purpose is to keep believers safe from the approaching global crisis.

Some internet writers believe Darby taught that the final cycle of prophetic events would begin with a secret, pretribulation rapture of believers. After this, the world would experience the Great Tribulation for seven years, culminating in the return of Christ.

But there’s nothing secret about it, since it is found in the Bible verses I’ve listed. Darby did not come up with anything “new” and many mistakenly credit him with the idea of the pretribulation “catching away” of believers. Reverend Morgan Edwards’ “The Millennium” (1788) predated Darby by seventy years. Joseph Mede also wrote about the Rapture. (1586-1638)

In reality, the various beliefs in mid-tribulation, pre-wrath and other raptures are the “new” ideas, not the longstanding belief in the imminent, pretribulation rapture of the Christian church. Pre-tribulation simply means that the Rapture of the church must precede the seven years of tribulation.

The rapture of the church will be swift and without warning. This is why every Christian should live as though this is the day that Christ will return.

[Barang]

these are the reason why i believe in the Rapture:

- 2 Thessalonians 2:3 nkjv
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [a]sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

- Matthew 24:37 nkjv
But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
- Luke 17:28 nkjv
Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; .
- Jude 7 nkjv
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the [a]vengeance of eternal fire.

- 1 Thessalonians 5:9 nkjv
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
- Revelation 3:10 nkjv
Because you have kept [a]My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

- 1 Thessalonians 4:17 nkjv
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

- Jude 14-15 nkjv
- 14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
- Revelation 19:11-15 nkjv
Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He [a]had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in [b]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a [c]sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

[shooterx10]

Matthew 24:41-42 ESV

40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding oat the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

[Garand Hunter]

NOT APPOINTED UNTO WRATH...Hard to get around that verse.

Psalm 1

[TrailerparkTrash]

I love it guys. Great debate, but I’m not seeing a rapture no matter how hard one tries to pry it out of the scripture. Jesus was so definitive when He said He will return (Revelation 22:12). All the rest is a “straining” on scripture to me. But, I say that with respect for those of you that feel otherwise. I see your argument, I just respectfully don’t agree with it.

Again, it really doesn’t matter and I also feel that it can be a HUGE distraction as to what’s really important for salvation. That I assume, is something we can all agree upon.

[Kokopelli]

In studying this topic, I like to remember who God is, and the historical context of His nature outlined throughout scripture. I like to think of it as God’s MO. His modus operandi.

Before destroying the evil people of the world, God made a way for the righteous, Noah and his family, to escape the deluge. God delivered Lot before destroying Sodom. I believe Jesus will save his bride from suffering through His wrath upon the evil in the world.

If we are here when Antichrist is revealed, we know Jesus will return in 7 years. But no one can know when. That is why we keep anxiously looking up. Because it could be any time. It is imminent. We must live holy lives and be ready.

In Matthew 24, Jesus is asked about the end times by the disciples. He follows with this from Matthew 25.

The Parable of the Ten Virgins

1. “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’

7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’

9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’

10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’

12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’

13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.“

[Tags99]

No. The Bible verses used to create the concept of a rapture usually just refer to the second coming.

[RAMCLAP]

Rapture at the 2nd Coming.

[Kokopelli]

Originally Posted by RAMCLAP

Rapture at the 2nd Coming.

So up and then immediately back? There is no scripture to support that.

We know Christ returns at the end of the 7 years of tribulation. If we are here when it begins, we cannot know when. So the up and back rapture theory fails the Biblical test

[MrBlond]

The false Christ comes first.

[Kokopelli]

Originally Posted by MrBlond

The false Christ comes first.

Please cite the scripture reference to support that belief.

[RAMCLAP]

Originally Posted by Kokopelli

So up and then immediately back? There is no scripture to support that.

We know Christ returns at the end of the 7 years of tribulation. If we are here when it begins, we cannot know when. So the up and back rapture theory fails the Biblical test

The Scripture only supports that. It is an exact copy of a Roman Triumph. The people go out to meet the hero and return to the city with him. In this case it is the Church going out to greet Christ and return with Him. It only fails your theory. Not Scripture.

[RAMCLAP]

Originally Posted by Tags99

No. The Bible verses used to create the concept of a rapture usually just refer to the second coming.

This has been the stance of the Church throughout time. Dispensationalism is a very new kid on the block and only represents a tiny portion of the Church.

[MrBlond]

Originally Posted by Kokopelli

Please cite the scripture reference to support that belief.

2 Thessalonians 2:1,3

[Kokopelli]

Originally Posted by MrBlond

2 Thessalonians 2:1,3

Reading 2 Thessalonians in full context, we cannot ignore the added details of verse 7 & 8...

7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

The man of lawlessness will not be reveiled untill the church is taken out of the way.

Blessings.

[GM4spd]

Originally Posted by Kokopelli

So up and then immediately back? There is no scripture to support that.

We know Christ returns at the end of the 7 years of tribulation. If we are here when it begins, we cannot know when. So the up and back rapture theory fails the Biblical test

I believe You have it right. Despite what others think and believe 1 Thess 4:13-18 is talking about an event that is well defined before Christ’s 7 year 3-1/2+3-1/2 time frame. I also think anyone reading here now,KNOWS, you need to have your salvation in order,yesterday!! There is no other way.

[billvau]

Originally Posted by GM4spd

I believe You have it right. Despite what others think and believe 1 Thess 4:13-18 is talking about an event that is well defined before Christ’s 7 year 3-1/2+3-1/2 time frame. I also think anyone reading here now, KNOWS, you need to have your salvation in order, yesterday!! There is no other way.

Exactly. If you follow a proper bible interpretation, you will have the Rapture before the Tribulation and definitely different than the 2nd coming.

Blessings,

[tsmithson]

Originally Posted by Kokopelli

In studying this topic, I like to remember who God is, and the historical context of His nature outlined throughout scripture. I like to think of it as God’s MO. His modus operandi.

Before destroying the evil people of the world, God made a way for the righteous, Noah and his family, to escape the deluge. God delivered Lot before destroying Sodom. I believe Jesus will save his bride from suffering through His wrath upon the evil in the world.

If we are here when Antichrist is revealed, we know Jesus will return in 7 years. But no one can know when. That is why we keep anxiously looking up. Because it could be any time. It is imminent. We must live holy lives and be ready.

In Matthew 24, Jesus is asked about the end times by the disciples. He follows with this from Matthew 25.

The Parable of the Ten Virgins

1. “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’

7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’

9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’

10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’

12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’

13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.“

Also the whole righteous city of Enoch was taken up to heaven before the flood.

As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the last days.

[skilletboy]

Originally Posted by Barang

yes for Rapture and 2nd Coming of Jesus to rule as King for 1,000 years.

This... I currently hold a Post-trib view that the rapture happens simultaneously when Christ returns to the earth... it's a little complicated, but this is part of the standard Post-trib view. And I believe in a literal 1000 year rule where Jesus will rule the whole earth as King and we will live on the earth with him in our resurrected bodies rebuilding the earth and reigning for 1000 years in peace because the devil will be locked into the pit and all non-believers who took the mark will be dead.

[skilletboy]

Originally Posted by billvau

Exactly. If you follow a proper bible interpretation, you will have the Rapture before the Tribulation and definitely different than the 2nd coming.

Blessings,

I'm sorry but there is no "proper" interpretation of these events. There are 3 main views that are held in the church and there is no consensus as to which is correct because there are problems with each one and biblical evidence for each one.

[skilletboy]

Originally Posted by Kokopelli

So up and then immediately back? There is no scripture to support that.

We know Christ returns at the end of the 7 years of tribulation. If we are here when it begins, we cannot know when. So the up and back rapture theory fails the Biblical test

No... this is the Post-trib view. That the rapture and second coming are essentially two simultaneous events. There is a lot of biblical evidence for this view. But there is also biblical evidence for the other 2 main views as well. It's not decided theology among the church.

Have a read: https://www.biblebb.com/files/eschatology.htm