Challenge

[GM4spd]

I’m sure you all have some non Christian friends who may or may not have any Bible knowledge even if they have been in Church many years. I’ve found with a few people if they ask about the Bible,I tell them to open the Book of Job and read JUST the first two chapters. A lot of people can discount it anyway they want but then you get others who say, “ I guess any hardship or tough time I’m having
right now could be a whole lot worse. “.

[Garand Hunter]

The problem is.....most people see Job as a fable. If people ask me I encourage them to read the first four chapters of Genesis and then look at the Gospels, then to read read read in the new Testament. IF they really want to ask and get answers.

Psalm 1

[TrailerparkTrash]

Another good one to read and it’s not too long is the suggesting of reading the book of John.

[Garand Hunter]

Correct !

Psalm 1

[RandyD]

One of our tasks is to know God and His will. It is impossible to follow Him if you don't know Him or His will. If you want to know Him and His will, I recommend reading the Psalms.

[Barang]

proverbs is great for guidance and wisdom.

[billvau]

Most people don't realize that God caused Job's trials using Satan as a willing demon to carry his trials out. This doesn't attract non-Christians when they figure this out!

TrailerParkTrash has one of the best answers. Have a non-Christian read/re-read the Gospel of John. I'd add - ask them to read it for 30 days and come back and tell you in Jesus' own words, (1) Who He says He is, (2) How He proved it, and (3) Who are the witnesses to Jesus.

If anyone reading this is not sure who Jesus Christ is, then take this 30 day challenge!

Blessings,

[Garand Hunter]

Hi Bill, just a little disagreement here. I do not see God as causing trials for us mortals down here. I know many do, I don't. Have a nice day Bill. No hard feelins.

Psalm 1

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Garand Hunter

Hi Bill, just a little disagreement here. I do not see God as causing trials for us mortals down here. I know many do, I don't. Have a nice day Bill. No hard feelins.

Psalm 1

I don't mind disagreeing, but I hope that you wouldn't disagree with what Scripture says! In the case of Job, Job 42:11 explains it clearly:

Job42:11 Then all his brothers and all his sisters and all who had known him before came to him, and they ate bread with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversities that the LORD had brought on him. And each one gave him one piece of money, and each a ring of gold.

My underlining. "comforted him for all the adversities that the LORD had brought on him."

1 Peter says it clearly too:

1 Pe1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
1 Pe3:17 For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.
1 Pe4:12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you;
1 Pe4:19 Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.

God is perfecting us with suffering JUST LIKE He perfected His Son, Jesus Christ through suffering (that He caused):

Heb2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.

Christ learned obedience from suffering and became our perfect savior, mediator, advocate, etc. having fulling experienced His humanity.

Heb5:8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,


Obviously, being fully God AND fully man, it was NOT His God-side that needed perfecting, it was His human side that did. And, no, He didn't use His powers as God to make it easy/easier to withstand suffering without sinning. He set all that aside in His "kenosis" (Phil. 2:5f). He lived 100% by the power of the Holy Spirit as we should!

Blessings,

[Garand Hunter]

James ch 1vs 13 does it for me. Good to go a round with you Bill.

Psalm 1

[RandyD]

Thanks Bill!

[Dirtlaw]

I can only say that in my life God has not spared the rod. At first that troubled me. I finally began to understand it was an incredible blessing. Now I thank God for the hard times.

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Garand Hunter

James ch 1vs 13 does it for me. Good to go a round with you Bill.

Psalm 1

Jas1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.


Indeed, God does NOT tempt anyone! Your verse is in a context, so you need the whole context to understand.

Trials/suffering, themselves, do NOT tempt anyone. They are simply difficulties brought on by God to grow us / perfect us spiritually. *If* you get tempted to sin in a trial, it's not God who is tempting you (1:13).

"BUT" (and that's the key word at the beginning of v.14), it's your own flesh tempting you (1:14-15).

So, God puts you in a trial and your faith grows when you fight the temptation of your flesh - choosing not to sin.

Christ fought temptation by "entrusting" Himself to His Father, the righteous judge (1 Peter 2:23). We are to do the same thing by "entrusting" ourselves to God the Father, our faithful creator (1 Peter 4:19).

The above is part of another passage in 1 Peter that says EXPLICITLY that God makes us suffer - and does so just as He made Christ suffer:

1 Peter 2:20 For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God. 21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, 22 WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; 23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;

1 Peter 4:19 Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.

In 2:21 "for you have been called for this purpose" says that the "purpose" is from v.20- "you do what is right and suffer for it patiently endure it." IOW, God is causing the suffering we get through persecution, and we are to respond EXACTLY as Christ did when He was persecuted. We patiently endure as He did by "entrusting" ourselves to God the Father.

As you can see, the Bible is very clear, across many contexts, in many direct wordings. God is behind all of our trials. He makes us Christians suffer to perfect us as He did Christ.

Yes, He lets our flesh tempt us, but He never tempts us.

And, now you know how you can consider it joy to endure trials (James 1:2-4). God is causing them to test (and grow per 1 Peter 1:6-9) your faith to produce endurance! Thank God for the trials He gives you - thank Him for ALL trials.


Blessings,
Bill

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Dirtlaw

I can only say that in my life God has not spared the rod. At first that troubled me. I finally began to understand it was an incredible blessing. Now I thank God for the hard times.

Amen. Great testimony!

[TrailerparkTrash]

Originally Posted by billvau

Most people don't realize that God caused Job's trials using Satan as a willing demon to carry his trials out. This doesn't attract non-Christians when they figure this out!

TrailerParkTrash has one of the best answers. Have a non-Christian read/re-read the Gospel of John. I'd add - ask them to read it for 30 days and come back and tell you in Jesus' own words, (1) Who He says He is, (2) How He proved it, and (3) Who are the witnesses to Jesus.

If anyone reading this is not sure who Jesus Christ is, then take this 30 day challenge!

Blessings,

^^^ Well said!

[Garand Hunter]

As said, I stand by what I posted from James, long dissertations will not change that. Thanks for engaging Bill, its been awhile.

Psalm 1

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Garand Hunter

As said, I stand by what I posted from James, long dissertations will not change that. Thanks for engaging Bill, its been awhile.

Psalm 1

"long dissertations = "A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" (quote by famous theologian Paul Simon).

Disappointed in you GH. You proof text a verse (i.e. wrong interpretation) but choose to keep believing the untruth in the face of a biblical explanation. That's not engaging. It's not Christian.

Sorry.

[CVShooter]

Job would be a terrible choice of text to show a non-Christian. Most obvious is the premise that God and "the adversary" play games with human lives for their own ego & fun. The other is that it isn't a uniquely Jewish story. It's only the Jewish version. Similar stories can be found in other Near Eastern cultures. I don't believe that Job is even the earliest known version, though I'm less sure on that -- just recalling long forgotten stuff.

Point is, of all the texts to show a non-Christian, that one is likely among the most problematic from a theological standpoint. Won't win many converts there.

[Garand Hunter]

HI Bill, you are disappointed in me Bill, that's ok, I stick by my stand, and don't go over and over on Job and his misfortunes. He was set up for sure, but none of us were there to critic the goings on. Or dare to critic the Almighty.

Psalm 1