Red Light Camera

[spyde12]

Location: Ventura, CA
Intersection: E. Main St & Lemon Grove Ave
Time: Little after 11 PM

Description:
Earlier tonight when I was driving, I was in the process of slowing down to come to a complete stop when the light turned yellow. When I finally came to a stop, the front tires went over over pedestrian line and the cameras from two areas flashed.

Question:
Should I expect to receive a letter in the mail?
Does AI technology exist that automatically reviews the photos/video and makes the determination, or is this done by a human?
In the event I do get a violation in the mail, I should be able to prove I didn't drive thru the intersection because these photos will have timestamps, correct?

Thanks in advance.

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[Rustlin’ Jack]

Originally Posted by spyde12

Description:
Earlier tonight when I was driving, I was in the process of slowing down to come to a complete stop when the light turned yellow. When I finally came to a stop, the front tires went over over pedestrian line and the cameras from two areas flashed.

I cannot help you out much with the red light camera technology, and I personally dislike and distrust them. I think you may receive a citation for failing to stop behind the limit line. Failing to stop before your tires went over the line is part of the red light violation in California.


VEHICLE CODE - VEH
DIVISION 11. RULES OF THE ROAD [21000 - 23336] ( Division 11 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )
CHAPTER 2. Traffic Signs, Signals, and Markings [21350 - 21468] ( Chapter 2 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )

ARTICLE 3. Offenses Relating to Traffic Devices [21450 - 21468] ( Article 3 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )

21453.
(a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision (b).

[yakdout]

Usually they have video, should be ok.


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[DolphinFan]

I thought red light cameras were unlawful in CA

[sealocan]

I don't know if this will help you but I was at a red light camera stop and an ambulance came up behind me so I went through to let them through... I got a ticket,that came with a photograph that was clearly me and back then it was an out-of-state scam company that was running the whole thing and making deals with local city governments that they would supposedly get some of the money that this scam brought in.
anyway, you had to pay your ticket in advance I think it was around $400, even way back then, just to be able to legally go fight it in court later.
I paid it, I had to fight it and eventually I won but after two trips to deal with this scam I kind of felt the whole thing either should be ignored or just paid and save the hassle of dealing with the local court system, which was Worse than the out of State scam red light ticket system.

Not too long after that they removed them from a few cities because people were complaining that it was actually a large majority of the money that was leaving the state and those cities were getting just a small cut and a lot of angry people.

Good luck.

[Rustlin’ Jack]

This information is off of the Ventura city website. Hopefully, when your photograph is reviewed by a real person, enough common sense will prevail that the citation will not be issued as you did not cross the intersection. Failing to stop at the limit line is great probable cause for DUI enforcement, but rarely, if ever, will someone be cited for stopping a few feet beyond the limit line. Red light cameras do not understand the difference between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law.


https://www.cityofventura.ca.gov/Doc...ght-Cameraspdf

Frequently Asked Questions about Red Light Cameras
What information is captured by the red light camera system? The “Redflex” red light camera systems consist of a digital still camera and one digital video camera. These systems are able to capture multiple digital still images of the violation including the license plate of the violator’s vehicle and facial image of the driver. In addition, the system captures a twelve (12) second digital video clip of the violation (six seconds preceding the violation and six seconds post violation).
I received a citation. How can I view the photo? All red light violators at these intersections will receive citations in the mail. Upon receiving the citation, the violator will have the opportunity to pay the fine and contest the citation.
What constitutes running a red light? A violation occurs when a motorist deliberately enters an intersection after the signal light has turned red. Motorists who are already in an intersection when the signal changes to red - while waiting to turn, for example, - will not be ticketed.
Isn't conventional police enforcement sufficient? Enforcing traffic laws in dense urban areas by traditional means poses special difficulties and dangers for police, who in most cases must follow a violating vehicle through a red light to stop it. This can endanger other motorists and pedestrians also, and police can't be everywhere at once. Communities unfortunately do not have the resources to allow police to patrol intersections as often as would be needed to ticket all red light runners, but red light camera systems work 24/7 and free police to focus on other enforcement needs.
Do the cameras photograph every vehicle passing through an intersection? No. The cameras photograph only those vehicles that enter an intersection after the light has turned red. Drivers who enter on yellow and find themselves in an intersection when the light changes to red aren't photographed. This technology is intended to catch vehicles driven by motorists who intentionally enter an intersection well after the signal has turned red.
Does someone review the citation before it is issued? Yes. Each citation is reviewed before it is issued to ensure that the vehicle is in violation. Tickets are mailed to vehicle owners only in cases where it's clear the vehicle ran the red light and where the photographed driver's gender matches that of the licensed owner or a licensed driver in their household. In addition, a photo red light citation is a valid traffic ticket, per California Vehicle Code 21455.5.
Do red light cameras unreasonably violate privacy? No. Driving on public roads is a regulated activity not just a right. By obtaining a license, motorists agree to abide by certain rules - to obey traffic signals, for example. When citations are issued, the only recognizable person in the photos is the driver - all passenger's faces have been carefully blocked out.

[Spanky8601]

The "violation" will be reviewed by an officer, before a citation is sent. I used to have a friend (retired LEO) who reviewed all "violations" and only forwarded actual "violations" to a citing officer. If you are cited you will be allowed to plea and then view the "violation", prior to having a court trial. (Might be in the courtroom). While it seems from your statement to be an actual violation, most officers usually want to see more intrusion into intersection before a citation is generated. Your mileage may vary.

[sheepdawg]

http://highwayrobbery.net/ is a website about how to handle red light tickets in California.

[Spaffo]

Red light cameras cause more accidents because drivers panic and ger rear-ended. Money-making scam that doesn't benefit the city much. The scammers running the system make the lion's share.

[RickD427]

You'll normally get a notice in the mail.

Camera violations are normally reviewed by an officer before the notice is sent. There has been a lot of litigation surrounding the use of the cameras, I've tried to follow the state of the law, but not as closely as I used to when I was working. I'd recommend doing some web research into the current state of the law.

Here's a couple of points to keep in mind:

1) There is no law violated by being the Registered Owner of a vehicle that is used to commit a traffic violation. California defines traffic infractions as "Crimes" (please refer to Penal Code section 16). One of the required elements of proof is that the person charged was the same person as was driving the vehicle at the time.

2) A lot of folks mis-believe that this makes it impossible to prosecute a camera violation. The point must be proved, but that can be done in many ways. It may be a simple as introducing the defendant's DL photo (those are digitized and are readily available to LEOs) and the driver's photo from the camera.

3) The likely violation to be charged from a "Red Light Camera" is Vehicle Code section 21453(a). That section requires a driver to stop behind the limit line when facing a red light. It's only necessary for the camera to show that the front of your vehicle was over the line at the time the light turned to red. It's legally irrelevant whether or not your vehicle proceeded through the intersection while the light was red.

[Tango_Down]

Red light cameras require frequent maintenance with a special tool. Here's the special tool you need.

[spyde12]

Originally Posted by Rustlin’ Jack

I cannot help you out much with the red light camera technology, and I personally dislike and distrust them. I think you may receive a citation for failing to stop behind the limit line. Failing to stop before your tires went over the line is part of the red light violation in California.


VEHICLE CODE - VEH
DIVISION 11. RULES OF THE ROAD [21000 - 23336] ( Division 11 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )
CHAPTER 2. Traffic Signs, Signals, and Markings [21350 - 21468] ( Chapter 2 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )

ARTICLE 3. Offenses Relating to Traffic Devices [21450 - 21468] ( Article 3 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )

21453.
(a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision (b).

Thank you for citation.

Originally Posted by yakdout

Usually they have video, should be ok.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I hope so...

Originally Posted by DolphinFan

I thought red light cameras were unlawful in CA

Doubt it since they're everywhere throughout the state.

Originally Posted by sealocan

I don't know if this will help you but I was at a red light camera stop and an ambulance came up behind me so I went through to let them through... I got a ticket,that came with a photograph that was clearly me and back then it was an out-of-state scam company that was running the whole thing and making deals with local city governments that they would supposedly get some of the money that this scam brought in.
anyway, you had to pay your ticket in advance I think it was around $400, even way back then, just to be able to legally go fight it in court later.
I paid it, I had to fight it and eventually I won but after two trips to deal with this scam I kind of felt the whole thing either should be ignored or just paid and save the hassle of dealing with the local court system, which was Worse than the out of State scam red light ticket system.

Not too long after that they removed them from a few cities because people were complaining that it was actually a large majority of the money that was leaving the state and those cities were getting just a small cut and a lot of angry people.

Good luck.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Rustlin’ Jack

This information is off of the Ventura city website. Hopefully, when your photograph is reviewed by a real person, enough common sense will prevail that the citation will not be issued as you did not cross the intersection. Failing to stop at the limit line is great probable cause for DUI enforcement, but rarely, if ever, will someone be cited for stopping a few feet beyond the limit line. Red light cameras do not understand the difference between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law.


https://www.cityofventura.ca.gov/Doc...ght-Cameraspdf

Frequently Asked Questions about Red Light Cameras
What information is captured by the red light camera system? The “Redflex” red light camera systems consist of a digital still camera and one digital video camera. These systems are able to capture multiple digital still images of the violation including the license plate of the violator’s vehicle and facial image of the driver. In addition, the system captures a twelve (12) second digital video clip of the violation (six seconds preceding the violation and six seconds post violation).
I received a citation. How can I view the photo? All red light violators at these intersections will receive citations in the mail. Upon receiving the citation, the violator will have the opportunity to pay the fine and contest the citation.
What constitutes running a red light? A violation occurs when a motorist deliberately enters an intersection after the signal light has turned red. Motorists who are already in an intersection when the signal changes to red - while waiting to turn, for example, - will not be ticketed.
Isn't conventional police enforcement sufficient? Enforcing traffic laws in dense urban areas by traditional means poses special difficulties and dangers for police, who in most cases must follow a violating vehicle through a red light to stop it. This can endanger other motorists and pedestrians also, and police can't be everywhere at once. Communities unfortunately do not have the resources to allow police to patrol intersections as often as would be needed to ticket all red light runners, but red light camera systems work 24/7 and free police to focus on other enforcement needs.
Do the cameras photograph every vehicle passing through an intersection? No. The cameras photograph only those vehicles that enter an intersection after the light has turned red. Drivers who enter on yellow and find themselves in an intersection when the light changes to red aren't photographed. This technology is intended to catch vehicles driven by motorists who intentionally enter an intersection well after the signal has turned red.
Does someone review the citation before it is issued? Yes. Each citation is reviewed before it is issued to ensure that the vehicle is in violation. Tickets are mailed to vehicle owners only in cases where it's clear the vehicle ran the red light and where the photographed driver's gender matches that of the licensed owner or a licensed driver in their household. In addition, a photo red light citation is a valid traffic ticket, per California Vehicle Code 21455.5.
Do red light cameras unreasonably violate privacy? No. Driving on public roads is a regulated activity not just a right. By obtaining a license, motorists agree to abide by certain rules - to obey traffic signals, for example. When citations are issued, the only recognizable person in the photos is the driver - all passenger's faces have been carefully blocked out.

Thanks again... Fingers crossed.

Originally Posted by Spanky8601

The "violation" will be reviewed by an officer, before a citation is sent. I used to have a friend (retired LEO) who reviewed all "violations" and only forwarded actual "violations" to a citing officer. If you are cited you will be allowed to plea and then view the "violation", prior to having a court trial. (Might be in the courtroom). While it seems from your statement to be an actual violation, most officers usually want to see more intrusion into intersection before a citation is generated. Your mileage may vary.

I hope I get a common sense LEO that is assigned to review.

Originally Posted by sheepdawg

http://highwayrobbery.net/ is a website about how to handle red light tickets in California.

Thank you for this.

Originally Posted by Spaffo

Red light cameras cause more accidents because drivers panic and ger rear-ended. Money-making scam that doesn't benefit the city much. The scammers running the system make the lion's share.

Personally, I agree... But it is what it is.

Originally Posted by RickD427

You'll normally get a notice in the mail.

Camera violations are normally reviewed by an officer before the notice is sent. There has been a lot of litigation surrounding the use of the cameras, I've tried to follow the state of the law, but not as closely as I used to when I was working. I'd recommend doing some web research into the current state of the law.

Here's a couple of points to keep in mind:

1) There is no law violated by being the Registered Owner of a vehicle that is used to commit a traffic violation. California defines traffic infractions as "Crimes" (please refer to Penal Code section 16). One of the required elements of proof is that the person charged was the same person as was driving the vehicle at the time.

2) A lot of folks mis-believe that this makes it impossible to prosecute a camera violation. The point must be proved, but that can be done in many ways. It may be a simple as introducing the defendant's DL photo (those are digitized and are readily available to LEOs) and the driver's photo from the camera.

3) The likely violation to be charged from a "Red Light Camera" is Vehicle Code section 21453(a). That section requires a driver to stop behind the limit line when facing a red light. It's only necessary for the camera to show that the front of your vehicle was over the line at the time the light turned to red. It's legally irrelevant whether or not your vehicle proceeded through the intersection while the light was red.

Thanks Rick...I was actually hoping you'd chime in. Part 3 is news to me, but at least now I know.

Originally Posted by Tango_Down

Red light cameras require frequent maintenance with a special tool. Here's the special tool you need.

Haha... I'd be lying if I said I wasn't tempted haha


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[SilveradoColt21]

Originally Posted by Tango_Down

Red light cameras require frequent maintenance with a special tool. Here's the special tool you need.

[Tango_Down]

The fact that the companies that sell these red light cameras get a piece of the profits from citations is so wrong and such a conflict of interest.

I read years ago where a city councilman heard so many claims about the cameras going off prematurely that he went down to one of the busy intersections and watched for a few hours. He witnessed multiple times were the camera went off prior to the light being red.

[spyde12]

Originally Posted by Tango_Down

The fact that the companies that sell these red light cameras get a piece of the profits from citations is so wrong and such a conflict of interest.



I read years ago where a city councilman heard so many claims about the cameras going off prematurely that he went down to one of the busy intersections and watched for a few hours. He witnessed multiple times were the camera went off prior to the light being red.

Around the corner of my mom's house where they installed a red light camera, it would literally turn green for 2-3 seconds and switch back to yellow and red. It was only affecting one side and not the other cross traffic.

The one impacted was the area where folks would have to exit out of after dropping off their kids at the school. There was a sharp increase in rear end collisions because folks would hit the breaks in such a short time.

They ended up getting it removed after a month because apparently there were tons of complaints.... That was my first confirmation it was a scam and not about driver safety.

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[SilveradoColt21]

An old coworker of mine from a previous job had told me that those red light tickets are a scam, judging from most responses here that seems to be true.

[Powder Monkey]

I got one from that exact intersection several years ago. Totally my fault. I was late and floored it. Didn't see the flash. Got the notice with 4 very incriminating photos (and a bill for $490). A shot of the truck behind the line (crosswalk) with a red light, a shot of the truck in front of the line with a red light, a shot of the license and a great shot of me in the cab. Glad I wasn't doing anything embarrassing. No arguing it wasn't you unless you're framing your twin. Also; the photos were taken by more than 1 camera. At least one was a block away.

[Kurgan]

Traffic cameras make me want to drive with a rubber gorilla mask.

[countonme]

The traffic commissioner or the judge will take a look at the video before you appear in court that day I'm sure they will toss it out.

From my experience the judge will call everybody up to the front of the room and then they will say that I had to look at your video more than once and it is dismissed

so basically if a judge house to look at it more than once to see if you broke the law that usually dismiss the camera light

[spyde12]

Originally Posted by Powder Monkey

I got one from that exact intersection several years ago. Totally my fault. I was late and floored it. Didn't see the flash. Got the notice with 4 very incriminating photos (and a bill for $490). A shot of the truck behind the line (crosswalk) with a red light, a shot of the truck in front of the line with a red light, a shot of the license and a great shot of me in the cab. Glad I wasn't doing anything embarrassing. No arguing it wasn't you unless you're framing your twin. Also; the photos were taken by more than 1 camera. At least one was a block away.

Damn... Sounds like you had the paparazzi lol

Originally Posted by Kurgan

Traffic cameras make me want to drive with a rubber gorilla mask.

Haha

Originally Posted by countonme

The traffic commissioner or the judge will take a look at the video before you appear in court that day I'm sure they will toss it out.

From my experience the judge will call everybody up to the front of the room and then they will say that I had to look at your video more than once and it is dismissed

so basically if a judge house to look at it more than once to see if you broke the law that usually dismiss the camera light

It's been 2 months and I haven't gotten a notice in the mail. Hopefully it means I'm in the clear.

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