C&R FFL Application Form ATF 7CR - use the official BATFE PDF form!

[Librarian]

I don't know to whom to address the arguments, but the support for the idea of a data-entry .PDF is

• the IRS now uses them extensively - this is neither new technology, new to government, nor untested in large volume
• use of such a .PDF would substantially reduce BATFE printing costs, though not eliminate them
• use of such a .PDF would produce readable information, making data entry on receipt much more reliable
• and, since the applicants would secure the .PDF files on their own schedule, the delay in supplying the forms would become less significant.

All of this presumes, of course, that 'efficiency' is a goal of the agency.

[Sean Vax]

Originally Posted by Inoxmark

Update on my application:
Received a large tyvek envelope from BATFE with a cover letter and one green application form. The letter stated that my original application will not be processed because it wasn't on the approved form. I am to complete attached green form and mail it to a particular person in a licensing center in WV. The form already had my file # filled in.

After reading all the posts in this thread and gathering all of the information I have come to the following conclusions:
1. The PDF app is not accepted because it is not an approved form.
2. Sending in the PDF app will lead to a person receiving the green approved form in a short period of time.

[joefrank64k]

Originally Posted by Sean Vax

I'm going to find the number for the office nearest to my location, (most likely Glendale) and see if they will do the same thing. Do you know where I can locate this information on their website?

For the United States...

http://www.atf.gov/field/index.htm

For Los Angeles...

http://www.atf.gov/field/losangeles/ca.htm

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by Sean Vax

After reading all the posts in this thread and gathering all of the information I have come to following conclusions:
1. The PDF app is not accepted because it is not an approved for but,
2. Sending in the PDF app will lead to a person receiving the green approved form in a short period of time.

ha ha, thats one way to look at it. Send in the PDF and they'll either accept it or send you a copy right away. None of that waiting for months to get a copy via the website

[Sean Vax]

Originally Posted by joefrank64k

Here's another option that worked for me...

About a month ago, I ended up calling my local ATF office (in my case Glendale) and asked if they had any CR FFL apps that I could pick up in person.

The SA on the phone said that he would save me the trouble and mail one out. I said that he didn't need to bother; I could just order it through the web site, but he said it would be no problem because it usually takes a long time before you get your forms from the web (as others have found out).

I got the app in the mail in about a week. I mailed it out within a day or two and they have already charged my CC. I'll update when I get my FFL in hand.

YMMV of course...

Here's an update for everyone on my experience trying to do this.

Called the Glendale office at 10:00AM was transferred to an answering machine where I asked if they might by chance have an C&R FFL apps just lying around that they might be able to kindly send my way. At the end of the message I left my name and phone number. At 12:35PM my phone rang and the caller ID says U.S. Government. Also something that I just remembered and wanted to make a note of, the number came from a 714 area code and Glendale has an 818 area code.Anyways, I answered the phone and here's how the conversation went:

ATF: Hi, is this Sean
Me: Yes sir
ATF: Hello, this is the ATF
Me: Holy crap you guys actually called me back
ATF: Of course, what's your address
'Gave the agent my address'
ATF: The papers are on their way
Me: Thanks alot



I'll post if I actually receive the papers in a few days and than maybe it will be easier for us to just call the local offices.

[joefrank64k]

Originally Posted by joefrank64k

Here's another option that worked for me...

About a month ago, I ended up calling my local ATF office (in my case Glendale) and asked if they had any CR FFL apps that I could pick up in person.

The SA on the phone said that he would save me the trouble and mail one out. I said that he didn't need to bother; I could just order it through the web site, but he said it would be no problem because it usually takes a long time before you get your forms from the web (as others have found out).

I got the app in the mail in about a week. I mailed it out within a day or two and they have already charged my CC. I'll update when I get my FFL in hand.

YMMV of course...

Great day today...I got my 03 C&R FFL!

All told, it took less than a month from start to finish, 2 weeks from when they charged my CC...now to make copies and fax them to all the milsurp dealers I can find!!!

Good luck to everyone else!!!

[Sean Vax]

Originally Posted by Sean Vax

Here's an update for everyone on my experience trying to do this.

Called the Glendale office at 10:00AM was transferred to an answering machine where I asked if they might by chance have an C&R FFL apps just lying around that they might be able to kindly send my way. At the end of the message I left my name and phone number. At 12:35PM my phone rang and the caller ID says U.S. Government. Also something that I just remembered and wanted to make a note of, the number came from a 714 area code and Glendale has an 818 area code.Anyways, I answered the phone and here's how the conversation went:

ATF: Hi, is this Sean
Me: Yes sir
ATF: Hello, this is the ATF
Me: Holy crap you guys actually called me back
ATF: Of course, what's your address
'Gave the agent my address'
ATF: The papers are on their way
Me: Thanks alot



I'll post if I actually receive the papers in a few days and than maybe it will be easier for us to just call the local offices.

Update

I just checked my mailbox and what to my wondering eyes do I see. A big white package with my official green forms and my brown Firearms Curios and Relics List book. It took the Glendale ATF field office 2 days to send me my forms. I suggest anybody that is interested call their local office and ask if they might have any forms just lying around.

[joefrank64k]

Glad to hear it worked for you, too Sean Vax!!!

[beetle]

well, I got my "you didn't use the approved form" letter today. I sent my PDF form in about 2 weeks ago, charge hit a week ago. Good news is at least I have a green form to send in now.

My original request for forms in now at 2+ months.

So one way to look at this is to send in the PDF in order to get the green form much quicker.

[bongfoo]

well, my card was charged on may 20th still haven't heard anything from the ATF. no phone call, no letter, no liscense and no green forms either...

[mievil]

Well, despite my handwritten letter sent in with the green forms, there is now a second charge from the ATF on my credit card statement. Sigh.

[Amacias805]

Ok... requested C&R forms begging of April...

sent in PDF version on the 3rd of june....

Was Charged on the 8th of june

Received the green forms today from the original order...

still haven't got denied or approved

[obeygiant]

Originally Posted by bongfoo

well, my card was charged on may 20th still haven't heard anything from the ATF. no phone call, no letter, no liscense and no green forms either...

Same as the post above but my card was charged on the 27th. Still waiting.

[bongfoo]

well, as i've posted before... i've been charged and i'm waiting. i received my green forms in the mail today. don't wanna send it in for fear of being charged again like mievil had done to him.

has anyone that has been charged and waiting tried to contact the BATF?

[Amacias805]

Originally Posted by bongfoo

well, as i've posted before... i've been charged and i'm waiting. i received my green forms in the mail today. don't wanna send it in for fear of being charged again like mievil had done to him.

has anyone that has been charged and waiting tried to contact the BATF?

no but i was considering, but since i was just charged on the 8th, i figure i give the atf another week to process (it is the government)... but if anyone else decides to call, please post..

[mievil]

If I can remember to bring the number with me to work, I'm going to call tomorrow.

[mievil]

For what it's worth, I called the ATF today and the lady told me I shouldn't have been double charged. She transferred me to another guy and gave me his direct number before the transfer. This guy apparently takes care of the refunds. So I was transferred and left a message. Now I'm just hoping that they don't take my request as a cancellation or I'll never get my FFL. haha

[Amacias805]

ok so today I went to get my mail and what do i see, a letter from the ATF
along with an additional copy of the C&R app

Originally Posted by ATF

Dear Sir/madam:

ATF received your application for a collector and Relics license. Unfortunately, you did not apply using the OMB-approved ATF Form 7CR (5310.16). As a result, the application will not be processed.

Please complete the enclosed Form or contact the ATF forms Disribution Center at (301) 583-4696 and request the approved form....

Please mail it to Examiner Greg Stimmel at Federal firearms licensing center, 244 needy road, Martinsburg, WV 25405. We will retain your payment (if already processed successfully) and database record while we await receipt of the proper from from you. Please do not submit additional payment unless we notify you that payment was not received with the first application you submitted.

ATF appreciates your patience as the ATF forms Distribution center is currently experiencing delay in processing requests. If you have any questions, please contact Greg Stimmel at 304-616-4620.

[jchag1718]

Originally Posted by bongfoo

well, as i've posted before... i've been charged and i'm waiting. i received my green forms in the mail today. don't wanna send it in for fear of being charged again like mievil had done to him.

has anyone that has been charged and waiting tried to contact the BATF?

I submitted the pdf form on May 4th and the $30 cleared my account 2 weeks later. On May 29th the ATF contacted me to let me know that my application had been approved, but was not acceptable on the pdf form. I would need to send in the green form minus the payment information. I did just that and was not double charged. I received my license in the mail a few days later.

[Turbinator]

Well, I certainly am intrigued that the incorrect application form seems to have spawned a way to get a genuine, acceptable form in a hurry. Fascinating.

Thanks to all for the updates.

Now, to address Librarian's comments - I certainly am curious about how we get the BATFE to consider accepting the PDF's. The arguments are good. To whom do we appeal?

Turby

[kadar]

Originally Posted by Turbinator

To whom do we appeal?

Turby

27 C.F.R. § 478.21

Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
PART 478—COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION
Subpart C—Administrative and Miscellaneous Provisions

Browse Next
§ 478.21 Forms prescribed.

(a) The Director is authorized to prescribe all forms required by this part. All of the information called for in each form shall be furnished as indicated by the headings on the form and the instructions on or pertaining to the form. In addition, information called for in each form shall be furnished as required by this part.

(5 U.S.C. 552(a); 80 Stat. 383, as amended)

[T.D. ATF–92, 46 FR 46915, Sept. 23, 1981, as amended by T.D. ATF–249, 52 FR 5962, Feb. 27, 1987; T.D. ATF–270, 53 FR 10492, Mar. 31, 1988; T.D. 372, 61 FR 20724, May 8, 1996]

My Bold.


The current Director is the one who makes the decision on the forms.

Kenneth E. Melson
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Office of Public and Governmental Affairs
99 New York Ave. NE
Mail Stop 5S144
Washington, DC 20226

[joefrank64k]

Originally Posted by joefrank64k

Great day today...I got my 03 C&R FFL!

All told, it took less than a month from start to finish, 2 weeks from when they charged my CC...now to make copies and fax them to all the milsurp dealers I can find!!!

Good luck to everyone else!!!

As promised in the letter I received with my C&R FFL, I got a large white envelope from the ATF with publications and forms related to C&R transactions...

[IMG][/IMG]

So now I'm all set...man, after looking around the net and the Shotgun News, I think I might need to get another safe! It's just to darn easy to click "Add to Cart" knowing you can have it shipped straight to your house!!!

I see Costco has a 36 Long Gun safe on sale right now for $799.99 shipped...hmmm

[Toddzilla]

I sent off the PDF version for the 03 FFL in May. It got sent back with the green forms to fill out (with an ATF use number filled in).

Question: Did everyone send the CLEO a new copy also on the green forms? Or is the PDF copy I sent to them enough? I know I need to send the BATFE an original green form copy.

Todd

[kadar]

The CLEO copy has no requirement to it other than that you send him a copy. Nothing says, including the May 29 notice, that the CLEO has to be the approved copy.

I hear some of them just round file it anyways.

[beetle]

I originally submitted the PDF, and got the "you didn't use the right form" response. Good news, after resending the form with the case # filled in already, the turn around is quick! I sent the forms in late last week, and ta-da! today got the FFL! Maybe 10 days turnaround!

[bongfoo]

i origionally used the PDF form also. i haven't received ANYTHING. no letter, no phone call no nothing. although my card has been charged already. my green forms that i ordered arived though. but no letter with them.

[Daktari51]

If anyone has a extra green form they don't want, shoot me a PM. Rediculous how long you have to wait for a freakin form.

[mievil]

Originally Posted by beetle

I originally submitted the PDF, and got the "you didn't use the right form" response. Good news, after resending the form with the case # filled in already, the turn around is quick! I sent the forms in late last week, and ta-da! today got the FFL! Maybe 10 days turnaround!

Wow. That's very interesting.

For what it's worth, and just for the record, I got a return call from the refund guy at the ATF and he said that I have 2 actual license numbers issued in my name. One was issued in the later part of May, and the other on June 19th. I still have gotten no correspondence in the mail or any kind. So I have two charges, 2 license numbers, and no license in hand. haha. And apparently the ATF just can't give a refund. The guy told me when the field agent shows up at my place to investigate the premises that I need to request them to provide a form at which point in time I fill everything out, and send it back in for my refund. They cannot just send you the refund forms. It has to be provided directly by a field agent.

[Inoxmark]

Why would an agent show up investigate your premises, did he explain?

[mievil]

No. I was just figuring he was assuming that an agent showed up to the premises for all FFL apps. Which I also took to mean that I will never get a refund.

[ke6guj]

ATF has been scheduling pre-license inspections for C&R FFLs on occasion, and are doing more audits of C&R FFLs as well.

[bongfoo]

ok update time...

i just got off the ohone with the BATFE (the 866 number that is on the bottom of the green form). they show that my application has been received and payment received but nothing more. so i ask the kind lady assisting me if there is someone else i may speak with that might be able to assist me further (due to the fact that she claimed there was nothing else she could do). so she transfered me to an "examiner". wouldn't you know it, just my luck she's out of the office for the WHOLE week.... any suggestions on what i should do next?

[Turbinator]

Originally Posted by bongfoo

any suggestions on what i should do next?

Sorry to hear. Maybe just wait it out?

Turby

[Amacias805]

Originally Posted by Amacias805

Ok... requested C&R forms begging of April...

sent in PDF version on the 3rd of june....

Was Charged on the 8th of june

Received the green forms today from the original order...

still haven't got denied or approved

Originally Posted by Amacias805

ok so today I went to get my mail and what do i see, a letter from the ATF
along with an additional copy of the C&R app

Re-mailed out my app on the green form late Wednesday the 29th of june

Received my licenses on the 6th of july

ETA: Very important. when you send in your Pdf version of the app, the Atf seems to actually approves it. but they need a green app on file. when they sent me a copy of the green form and the letter explaining that i needed to resubmit the app on the green form it had my License # on the letter and the green app.
so make sure that when resubmitting them you are submitting them with your license number on upper right hand corner where it says licenses. in addition, DO NOT SEND THEM PAYMENT INFORMATION! LEAVE THAT PART BLANK!....
SEND THE FORM TO THE RIGHT PLACE! THEY DIDN'T HAVE ME MAIL THE 2ND APP TO THE ORIGINAL PROCESSING CENTER THEY HAD ME SEND TO ELSE WHERE TO

[Turbinator]

Originally Posted by Amacias805

ETA: Very important. when you send in your Pdf version of the app, the Atf seems to actually approves it. but they need a green app on file.

This is very good information to know.

SEND THE FORM TO THE RIGHT PLACE! THEY DIDN'T HAVE ME MAIL THE 2ND APP TO THE ORIGINAL PROCESSING CENTER THEY HAD ME SEND TO ELSE WHERE TO

If you're willing, go ahead and share that additional information so that we know where to send the green forms (not to the original processing center).

Thanks!
Turby

[Inoxmark]

Originally Posted by Turbinator

This is very good information to know.



If you're willing, go ahead and share that additional information so that we know where to send the green forms (not to the original processing center).

Thanks!
Turby

The letter accompanying this green form gives the address and the name of the actual examiner who has been assigned to finish the review of your application. Not sure if that info would be helpful to anyone other than the recipient of the letter. My examiner was in Martinsburg, WV.

[mievil]

Absolutely good information about the payment stuff. I was a little late on that info. I got my physical license last week. Still nothing from the ATF regarding my request for a refund. I'll be giving them a call next week. As for now I have a $60 C&R license. But at least I have it. Woot.

[Amacias805]

Originally Posted by Turbinator

This is very good information to know.



If you're willing, go ahead and share that additional information so that we know where to send the green forms (not to the original processing center).

Thanks!
Turby

Originally Posted by Inoxmark

The letter accompanying this green form gives the address and the name of the actual examiner who has been assigned to finish the review of your application. Not sure if that info would be helpful to anyone other than the recipient of the letter. My examiner was in Martinsburg, WV.

correct in the letter they send me it had me send in my Green form to


EXAMINER GREG STIMMEL AT the Federal Firearms Licensing Center, 244 Needy Road, Martinsburg WV 25405.....



Tomorrow ill copy my letter


ETA: Im curious if that where all of them are being sent? or if just a select few

[joefrank64k]

Not sure if this is common knowledge...and you know what they say about ASSuming anything!!!

With a C&R FFL, you are entitled to "Dealer Pricing" with several firearms retailers.

I've had my existing accounts changed to "Dealer" accounts at Brownells and MidwayUSA for example, and they give you a nice discount off of their regular prices.

Also, I sent in my 03 FFL to Century Arms and now have access to "Dealer" pricing and can participate in their auctions.

The $30 fee is worth it just to get these discounts...the amount of the discount varies but 25% is not uncommon!

Example at Brownells: An AR-15 Lower Receiver Vise Block is normally $51.99 but is $38.49 with dealer pricing...not bad.

[ke6guj]

Yup, your 03 will get you dealer pricing at some retailers. Graf's does dealer discounts as well. However, with Graf's you have to be careful. retail pricing includes free shipping, but dealer pricing does not. Depending on shipping prices, buying through the dealer site can cost more than having it bought retail.