Local FFL charged $75 for private party transfer!

[enegue]

It’s a smart strategy by the state to force FFLs to be unprofitable. Don’t forget that when you’re complaining.

That being said, for the last 10 years when doing PPTs I have either purchased something else from the store for at least $100 or I do business with that FFL every year for new stuff. So for people like me, paying that extra fee really feels bad because I normally always pay extra to try to help these small businesses. I suppose that if they charged extra, I wouldn’t buy anything else.

[Dvrjon]

IN 2001, Attorney General Lockyer issued an Information Bulletin emphasizing

Firearms dealers are required to conduct private party transfers pursuant to Penal Code section 12071(b)(5). Dealers may not limit the days or hours in which private party transfers are conducted.

The allowable fees are limited by statute. Pursuant to Penal Code section 12082, the fees that can be charged are as follows:

1. The private party purchaser or transferee, or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the firearms dealer to pay a fee not to exceed $10.00 per firearm, and the applicable Dealer’s Record of Sale (DROS) fee that the DOJ may charge pursuant to Penal Code section 12076. The DROS fee is currently $14.00 and the Safety fee is currently $1.00, a total of $15.00.

The statute was amended in 2003 to include:

12082. (a) [...]The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. [...].

The Senate Floor Analysis included:

11.Prohibits a dealer from charging any fee in addition to those already enumerated in existing law relative to processing a sale or loan or transfer or a firearm.

...but did not record any opposition or support for the bill from any firearms (FFL) contingent.

So, for over two decades, this requirement has been in statute, and even though it was brought forward in 2003, no opposition was raised.

What is amazing to me is that, for all other fees, increased costs of doing business are incorporated in the statute, allowing the fees to be raised based on either:

a. Keep pace with the CPI, ($10 in 2000 is now worth $15.49). As an example, the DROS fee in 2000 was $14.00 (plus safety and enforcement fees); today it is $31.19 (123% increase) Based on that, the PPT fee should approximate $22.30, today.

Or,

b. Meet the pace of increased costs for performance (e.g.: rising minimum wage). In 2000, CA Minimum Wage was $5.75/hr. In 2021, it goes to $14/hr. If it takes an aggregate of 1.5 hrs to conduct the PPT (initial contact, DROS, processing, inventory, storage, completion of paper work...add in 10% for overhead),
the PPT should cost $23.10 just in personnel time.

Add 10% profit to either of these, and today’s fair-market value for PPT should be around $25 for a single gun.

In 2000, the price of gasoline in CA was $1.79/gal. In 2021, it is $3.59/gal. That's over a 100% increase.

But, FFLs didn't challenge the fee when assessed, and haven't attempted to get it changed to reflect the current value of their work.

[BigPimping]

I would have defecated on the counter and then left.

[kriller134]

If it takes you more than 15 minutes to do a ppt you’re doing it wrong.

[cgseanp1]

Originally Posted by kriller134

If it takes you more than 15 minutes to do a ppt you’re doing it wrong.

Omg! A shop down in Castro valley was so freaking slow. I almost lost my mind. Took over an hour for a PPT. They make the buyer input their own info in the laptop, which is ok I guess, but it wasn’t efficient at all. And the dude was so f’ing slow and talkative.. nice but damn. And to make matters worse, they didn’t have the laptop plugged in and it died half way through..

And to make matters even worse, this happened during the initial shutdown and they weren’t allowed to stay open so I had to re do the paperwork. And it was over an hour away. Rant over.


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[turbolxstang]

I try and tip every time I do a PPT, it’s a nice gesture for a service that isn’t readily available in the Bay Area, I wish they could charge more...

[Lucky916]

I have never paid more than $50 for a PPT FEE


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[Barang]

all my ppt (sacramento county) were 15 minutes +/- with the exception of target master in milpitas. always bought something from the store and tried to buy firearms from them if they have what i'm looking for.

[denpython]

Here is the breakdown for my recent ppt cost as buyer in NorCal. No appointment needed. Walk in during 3 hour period.
Pparty transfer $10
Pparty transfer fee_ ppt storage fee $75
Dros does fee $37.19
Grand total $122.19

No other ffl available that day. One booked solid.
Other ffl not available but normally charges $90.

So how's the " storage fee" smell???

[bohoki]

for that extra fee you should be able to get your gun in 5 days after all if they are going to ignore the rules why not ignore more of the rules if they have a "storage fee" offer to store it for them

[edgerly779]

If long gun use big 5 just make sure that they have someone working who can do it. I have had good luck with them.

[bugsy714]

I had that happened to me at a place where I was transferring three guns and they wanted to hit me with a separate $47 charge for each of them

Paid with a credit card disputed it with the company and one


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[9Cal_OC]

Originally Posted by bugsy714

I had that happened to me at a place where I was transferring three guns and they wanted to hit me with a separate $47 charge for each of them

Paid with a credit card disputed it with the company and one


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One what?

I’m guessing you disputed after the 10-day waiting period?

[bugsy714]

Originally Posted by 9Cal_OC

One what?

I’m guessing you disputed after the 10-day waiting period?

Of course

If they want to play by their own set of rules then I am willing to play back

Disputed the difference between what it should’ve cost which would be $30 +37 and change and what they charged me which was almost $150


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[cgseanp1]

Originally Posted by denpython

Here is the breakdown for my recent ppt cost as buyer in NorCal. No appointment needed. Walk in during 3 hour period.
Pparty transfer $10
Pparty transfer fee_ ppt storage fee $75
Dros does fee $37.19
Grand total $122.19

No other ffl available that day. One booked solid.
Other ffl not available but normally charges $90.

So how's the " storage fee" smell???

It doesn’t smell good. They know exactly what they are doing and are trying to skirt the rules. And to add insult to injury, they charged $75 dollars for the “storage”!! I’ve had a few places tack on some random “admin” fee or something, but’s it’s usually $5-10, not $75.

So, please out them.


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[denpython]

After I pick up I will take action.
Good opinions here.
Thanks!

[Russian Bot]

Dear God, where are you guys going that it's taking hours? Went to 2A Zone for a PPT today, arrived a little early so I could get my FSC out of the way and was still out in less than an hour. Didn't get raped on the fee and had friendly conversation while they processed everything.

[zbrah]

Damn, that's steep! Turners in Orange took $23 from my wallet on my last ppt in August.

[longranger.270]

Stage Stop Gun Shop. Last ppt was less than 15 minutes after a short wait. Awesome store!!

[longranger.270]

Sorry , Stage Stop in Atwater.

[jorgi23]

State do not want PPT!!! so they set a stupid price, So FFL's say no to PPT!

PPT take about 30 minutes and lots of BS. I always try to make an extra purchase to say thank you...

its just about 20 bucks more, the lesson is worth more than the money....

[denpython]

Originally Posted by cgseanp1

It doesn’t smell good. They know exactly what they are doing and are trying to skirt the rules. And to add insult to injury, they charged $75 dollars for the “storage”!! I’ve had a few places tack on some random “admin” fee or something, but’s it’s usually $5-10, not $75.

So, please out them.


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Actually I plan on picking up in the next few days and after it is in my hands, I will ask the guy if the "storage fee" has a refund for unused days.
A buyer needs to pick up in no later than 30 days. So the $75 for "storage" might be money up front for the possibility of a 30 day plus hold over etc...
So at around $2.20 per day for 10 days is ok with me as a 'gratuity'.($20)
Maybe he will refund the balance even though such a notion was not disclosed nor the price disclosed before the PPT was done. No signs either.

I shall see.

Thanks

[enegue]

The real problem is the state setting a fixed price instead of the free market and $10 today doesn’t buy you anything. For every PPT the shop does, they lose money assuming the “customer” doesn’t buy anything else. Yes, there are historical reasons why we have the $10 fee, but those are largely irrelevant now.

It’s a win-win for the state: gun shops are forced to perform work at a loss, and it causes conflict between the gun enthusiasts and the FFLs. Everyone’s bitter. Except the state.

[cgseanp1]

Originally Posted by denpython

Actually I plan on picking up in the next few days and after it is in my hands, I will ask the guy if the "storage fee" has a refund for unused days.
A buyer needs to pick up in no later than 30 days. So the $75 for "storage" might be money up front for the possibility of a 30 day plus hold over etc...
So at around $2.20 per day for 10 days is ok with me as a 'gratuity'.($20)
Maybe he will refund the balance even though such a notion was not disclosed nor the price disclosed before the PPT was done. No signs either.

I shall see.

Thanks

Unlikely but you should for sure being it up


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[edgerly779]

15 minutes for dros shootsocal. pickup less than that. Then bought some wwb 9mm 100 for 200 rounds. No vendor FEE since done with dros.

[denpython]

Picked up today. Ffl declined any reconciliation.
I made a credit card claim for the overcharge.
It includes a refund that voluntarily gives them $25 from my part.
I know the politics sticks it to the ffl and firearm owner but these people need to be upfront about costs before initiating dros.
Thanks,all your info helped!

[bugsy714]

Originally Posted by enegue

The real problem is the state setting a fixed price instead of the free market and $10 today doesn’t buy you anything. For every PPT the shop does, they lose money assuming the “customer” doesn’t buy anything else. Yes, there are historical reasons why we have the $10 fee, but those are largely irrelevant now.

It’s a win-win for the state: gun shops are forced to perform work at a loss, and it causes conflict between the gun enthusiasts and the FFLs. Everyone’s bitter. Except the state.

The whole idea is that in order for FFL‘s to play ball and sell guns they have to also provide this service at a fixed cost that prevents them from pricing it in a manner that would discourage people from doing a legal PPT

Got a problem with it? Try a different industry


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[enegue]

Originally Posted by bugsy714

The whole idea is that in order for FFL‘s to play ball and sell guns they have to also provide this service at a fixed cost that prevents them from pricing it in a manner that would discourage people from doing a legal PPT

Got a problem with it? Try a different industry


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Truth is that the DOJ will probably never do anything to FFLs even if they’re breaking the rules. They can simply make PPT by appt only and when you call for one, they just tell you that they’re booked up. That’s kinda what I think Guns Direct does, I called and they gave me a date 2 months in the future even though I have purchased something there middle of the week and they have plenty of free time.

So, no. “Try a different industry” isn’t necessary for them. They can do what they want. And if people wanna be jerks about it and not understand that they don’t want to lose money then they will probably turn away more PPTs.

They should be up front about all charges which is the big mistake on their part in the case of the OP.

[BAJ475]

Originally Posted by bugsy714

The whole idea is that in order for FFL‘s to play ball and sell guns they have to also provide this service at a fixed cost that prevents them from pricing it in a manner that would discourage people from doing a legal PPT

Got a problem with it? Try a different industry


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Better idea. Try a different state!

[ojisan]

Originally Posted by cgseanp1

They thought $10 would be profitable? Or am I misunderstanding?

The California gun dealers group back when this law was being developed were all for making all gun sales go through them.
They thought they were going to be able to charge whatever amount they wanted for a transfer of a used gun.
Their plan was to jack up transfer fees so high that people would buy new guns from the dealers instead of buying used guns from private parties.
With the dealers group support, the laws were written.
The state wanted all guns registered.
They knew the dealers would jack up the fees so high that nobody would comply with the law.
So, the dealer fee was set at $10 at the very end of the process.
The dealers group howled and complained but since they chose to sleep with the devil they should not have been surprised when they got burned.

[cgseanp1]

Originally Posted by denpython

Picked up today. Ffl declined any reconciliation.
I made a credit card claim for the overcharge.
It includes a refund that voluntarily gives them $25 from my part.
I know the politics sticks it to the ffl and firearm owner but these people need to be upfront about costs before initiating dros.
Thanks,all your info helped!

Ok so you should definitely tell us the shop now!


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[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by ojisan

The California gun dealers group back when this law was being developed were all for making all gun sales go through them.
They thought they were going to be able to charge whatever amount they wanted for a transfer of a used gun.
Their plan was to jack up transfer fees so high that people would buy new guns from the dealers instead of buying used guns from private parties.
With the dealers group support, the laws were written.
The state wanted all guns registered.
They knew the dealers would jack up the fees so high that nobody would comply with the law.
So, the dealer fee was set at $10 at the very end of the process.
The dealers group howled and complained but since they chose to sleep with the devil they should not have been surprised when they got burned.

It’s been almost a year since I posted this,, but it bears repeating.

The dealers didn’t protest.

[denpython]

Originally Posted by cgseanp1

Ok so you should definitely tell us the shop now!


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G4. NorCal
Others in the area are like players.
Yep,its a squeeze.

[IronsightsRifleman]

The problem is that the State set up a system where PPTs must go through an FFL01 and, on the books, they capped the fee at $10. But the State doesn't enforce the fee limit. And this achieves exactly what the State wants: a hindrance on gun sales.
The whole situation sucks. But you need to stand up and demand that the licensed dealer charge no more than $10, or demand that the State enforce their law by having the dealer's license forfeit. That it the prescribed statutory penalty for refusing a PPT or for exceeding the fee limit.
By the same token, when your LGS performs this legally required service, be a good customer by buying some ammunition and accessories from them for your new firearm.

[G-forceJunkie]

To be fair, When this was passed, $10 was nearly double minimum wage. The dealers should have pressed for a fee tied to inflation.

Originally Posted by ojisan

The California gun dealers group back when this law was being developed were all for making all gun sales go through them.
They thought they were going to be able to charge whatever amount they wanted for a transfer of a used gun.
Their plan was to jack up transfer fees so high that people would buy new guns from the dealers instead of buying used guns from private parties.
With the dealers group support, the laws were written.
The state wanted all guns registered.
They knew the dealers would jack up the fees so high that nobody would comply with the law.
So, the dealer fee was set at $10 at the very end of the process.
The dealers group howled and complained but since they chose to sleep with the devil they should not have been surprised when they got burned.

[Rob454]

Originally Posted by buster1960

Take him to small claims court.

Lol…for that? You ever took anyone to court? You’ll spend more taking time off, filing, serving, driving to court, and…….maybe winning. Because you’re not guaranteed. The guy told you what he charges you chose to pay. You could of walked out

Originally Posted by cgseanp1

They thought $10 would be profitable? Or am I misunderstanding?


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Really…$10. Ok…….Would you do a hours worth of work for $10. Not only the work but the liability of the nature of that industry? Considering the cost of a employee hourly wage alone is $16/18 a hour. That doesn’t count the additional costs to the employer like taxes, workmans comp etc. the hourly wage is just the starting point.

Originally Posted by five.five-six

Possible solutions:

Go somewhere else?

Fork over $150K to open a lease and TI work, then another $100K for inventory and hire a bunch of people for $20-30K/month with rent and utilities and start your own gun shop and you could charge $5.00 for transfer if you like.


Grab your cell phone and dial 9-wah-wah

I’m with this guy^^^^^^. Lots of complaining about how bad FFLs are. Let me see you guys do a hour labor for $10. I bet the first words out of your mouth is f that. DROS fees should be in the $60 plus range.

Originally Posted by IronsightsRifleman

Several FFL01s in the LA area have said they are no longer doing PPTs (many of them are so bold as to have it written on their web sites) while others are charging high fees. I've permanently stopped doing any business with them, but that leaves very few LGSs left. I know that this isn't a money maker for them, but it's a service they must perform and should do so to support the community. Performing PPTs at the legally prescribed rate is a condition of their license and the penalty is license forfeiture. But DOJ won't do anything about it because their goal is to impede transfers.

Personally I’ll pay a fee to get in and out faster. My time is worth more than $40. I can understand why FFLs don’t wanna do PPTs.

[Dano3467]

Who, & location. so we can avoid this place.

[sfe187]

Originally Posted by Dano3467

Who, & location. so we can avoid this place.

#73

[cgseanp1]

…


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[cgseanp1]

Originally Posted by Rob454

Lol…for that? You ever took anyone to court? You’ll spend more taking time off, filing, serving, driving to court, and…….maybe winning. Because you’re not guaranteed. The guy told you what he charges you chose to pay. You could of walked out




Really…$10. Ok…….Would you do a hours worth of work for $10. Not only the work but the liability of the nature of that industry? Considering the cost of a employee hourly wage alone is $16/18 a hour. That doesn’t count the additional costs to the employer like taxes, workmans comp etc. the hourly wage is just the starting point.





I’m with this guy^^^^^^. Lots of complaining about how bad FFLs are. Let me see you guys do a hour labor for $10. I bet the first words out of your mouth is f that. DROS fees should be in the $60 plus range.






Personally I’ll pay a fee to get in and out faster. My time is worth more than $40. I can understand why FFLs don’t wanna do PPTs.

You kind of have to read more than just one post to get what I was saying. I was asking a question, I wasn’t making a statement. And my question was directed towards another statement from someone else.