Renna v Bonta - US Dist Ct So Cal, 11/2020 (Roster aka Peña II)

[curtisfong]

Bizarre.

Mostly a combination of "We are clueless therefore will not respond"

including this howler

Defendants lack knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief as whether the handgun makes and models on the Roster constitute a “small fraction” of the handguns available elsewhere in the United States and therefore denies that allegation

and

"There is no claim"

Bonta must really be thinking this court is the State rubberstamping kind. He might be right, but Sabraw appears to be a Bush appointee.

[ar15barrels]

My favorite ones are these:

Paragraph 57 of the TA consists of legal argument and/or conclusions that do not require admission or denial.
To the extent admission or denial is required, Defendants admit that this court has jurisdiction over Plaintiffs’ claims but deny all remaining allegations.

Paragraph 58 of the TAC consists of legal argument and/or conclusions that do not require admission or denial.
To the extent admission or denial is required, Defendants admit that venue in this Court is proper but deny all remaining allegations.

Pretty much a summary off the 22 pages.

[Sputnik]

22 pages of sgt Schultz: “I see nothing! I know nothing!”
I hope they didn’t require an extra 30 days to come up with that one.

[abinsinia]

It looks like this is common for that kind of response brief where the defendant just denies everything.

[mshill]

Originally Posted by Sputnik

22 pages of sgt Schultz: “I see nothing! I know nothing!”
I hope they didn’t require an extra 30 days to come up with that one.

My exact thought as I read through it.

[TruOil]

What you are looking at is an answer to a complaint. There are three permissible responses (other than the allegation is a legal conclusion): admit, deny, deny on lack of information or belief. The defendant is required to admit only such facts are as known to that party of his/her/its personal knowledge, and deny those things as are known to that party of its personal knowledge. An allegation outside of that defendant's personal knowledge is permissibly denied on lack of information and belief. Hence, Bonta is not required to know how many handguns are manufactured in the United States, and so may deny on lack of information or belief. He would have to admit how many are on the Roster, how many were submitted but refused, etc., i.e., facts that are known to the government in its official capacity. If denied on lack of information or belief, the effect is to put the burden of proof on the proponent (Plaintiff) to prove that allegation.

That's how the game is played, and you don't need to read into it anything more than that. Wait for a motion and opposition to be filed, then you will see the players lay their cards on the table.

[curtisfong]

Makes sense. When the Defendant says "I do not know" they mean "plaintiff must present evidence", since unless and until the plaintiff does so, there is no reason for the Defendant to admit it knows anything.

[johnireland]

I don't think this is the way our legal system was supposed to work, it is now a grotesque mutation of it. We need to get back to arrest them on Monday, give them a trial on Tuesday, let them write their goodbyes on Wednesday, and hang them on Thursday.

[GW]

Wow, I hope the judge reads that and finds for the plaintiff.
With prejudice

[gunuser17]

As noted by TruOil, this is how the system is designed and how it is supposed to work when answering a complaint. You would see the same type of answer in a variety of types of civil and constitutional cases. If the defendant does not deny an allegation by the plaintiff in the complaint, then plaintiffs will argue in the future that the allegation was admitted and does not need to be proven at trial. The judge is certainly familiar and unbothered by such an answer to the complaint whether the judge was appointed by a democrat or a republican.

[michigander]

I noticed the response to the Boland complaint was similar. As of today that case appears to be a little bit ahead of this case, but would imagine the counsel in this case will be filing for an injunction shortly too.

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by michigander

I noticed the response to the Boland complaint was similar. As of today that case appears to be a little bit ahead of this case, but would imagine the counsel in this case will be filing for an injunction shortly too.

Boland is 2 years behind Renna

[michigander]

Originally Posted by taperxz

Boland is 2 years behind Renna

Ahead in the legal process. Renna took forever to get a complaint they could move forward with and essentially started over (twice) after NYSRPA vs Bruen.

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by michigander

Ahead in the legal process. Renna took forever to get a complaint they could move forward with and essentially started over (twice) after NYSRPA vs Bruen.

Thats not acurate. The complaint was the complaint and then things changed and now its back to where it was at decision of Bruen

[NorCalBusa]

I wonder what manufacturers are thinking/doing. It will be like or worse than Freedom Week overnight when the Roster is turned off.
Have they started building inventory?
Can they- or are the already running wide open?
The Kalifornia premium will disappear, will it be replaced with a price increase not unlike car dealers due to low inventory, that add $10k to a car. Will FFL's do similarly?
I assume we will still need to purchase via an FFL, but can we order direct from manufacturers and ship to the FFL?

I sure hope they are noodling this already and not waiting. I got my list ready- love to send it as "tentative" now. Be a great way for them to get some data about just how much pent-up demand is in real numbers.

[f80vm]

Originally Posted by NorCalBusa

I wonder what manufacturers are thinking/doing. It will be like or worse than Freedom Week overnight when the Roster is turned off.
Have they started building inventory?
Can they- or are the already running wide open?
The Kalifornia premium will disappear, will it be replaced with a price increase not unlike car dealers due to low inventory, that add $10k to a car. Will FFL's do similarly?
I assume we will still need to purchase via an FFL, but can we order direct from manufacturers and ship to the FFL?

I sure hope they are noodling this already and not waiting. I got my list ready- love to send it as "tentative" now. Be a great way for them to get some data about just how much pent-up demand is in real numbers.

1 in 30 will likely slow things down so I think they’ll be able to meet the demand.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by f80vm

1 in 30 will likely slow things down so I think they’ll be able to meet the demand.

No 1-in-30 limit for people who are 1-in-30 exempt.
Anyone who can pass a background check to buy a gun can become exempt of the 1-in-30 law.

[Scope2x]

Originally Posted by NorCalBusa

I wonder what manufacturers are thinking/doing. It will be like or worse than Freedom Week overnight when the Roster is turned off.
Have they started building inventory?
Can they- or are the already running wide open?
The Kalifornia premium will disappear, will it be replaced with a price increase not unlike car dealers due to low inventory, that add $10k to a car. Will FFL's do similarly?
I assume we will still need to purchase via an FFL, but can we order direct from manufacturers and ship to the FFL?

I sure hope they are noodling this already and not waiting. I got my list ready- love to send it as "tentative" now. Be a great way for them to get some data about just how much pent-up demand is in real numbers.

There’s literally nothing to be ready for. Outside of CA, the gun market is well stocked with their bread and butter firearms.

[BAJ475]

Originally Posted by Scope2x

There’s literally nothing to be ready for. Outside of CA, the gun market is well stocked with their bread and butter firearms.

Yes, the only off roster hand gun that is in limited supply locally is the new Springfield 1911 DS Prodigy. Other DS 2011s are on the shelf at some of the local gun stores.

[homelessdude]

I can think of a few that are in short supply.

[NorCalBusa]

Originally Posted by Scope2x

There’s literally nothing to be ready for. Outside of CA, the gun market is well stocked with their bread and butter firearms.

California is mid-40 million people, maybe 1/3 are <18 yrs old. Leaves 28m new customers...not all will buy, but even half* that would blow the crap out of inventory and lead times.

*wonder how many closet gun owner wannabe dems there are...ya know, just in case

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by NorCalBusa

I wonder what manufacturers are thinking/doing. It will be like or worse than Freedom Week overnight when the Roster is turned off.
Have they started building inventory?
Can they- or are the already running wide open?
The Kalifornia premium will disappear, will it be replaced with a price increase not unlike car dealers due to low inventory, that add $10k to a car. Will FFL's do similarly?
I assume we will still need to purchase via an FFL, but can we order direct from manufacturers and ship to the FFL?

I sure hope they are noodling this already and not waiting. I got my list ready- love to send it as "tentative" now. Be a great way for them to get some data about just how much pent-up demand is in real numbers.

So, you think FFLs are dumb? If you don’t buy from them, they can just charge more money on the transfer fee to keep their doors open.

[Scope2x]

Originally Posted by NorCalBusa

California is mid-40 million people, maybe 1/3 are <18 yrs old. Leaves 28m new customers...not all will buy, but even half* that would blow the crap out of inventory and lead times.

*wonder how many closet gun owner wannabe dems there are...ya know, just in case

Sure I get it. But the fact is nothing is happening. If there was even the slightest of hint the roster would be going away. Gun stores would be getting orders in or start to. I’m hopeful but not optimistic. Still think there’s 3-5 years and even then I see it going to magazine disconnect and LCI. Difference of opinion never hurts

[NorCalBusa]

Originally Posted by taperxz

So, you think FFLs are dumb? If you don’t buy from them, they can just charge more money on the transfer fee to keep their doors open.

Not at all what I suggested. My intent was to we get in line with the manufacturer for build order, so when the make/model we want gets built- we are in queue. We'd still buy from the FFL.

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by NorCalBusa

Not at all what I suggested. My intent was to we get in line with the manufacturer for build order, so when the make/model we want gets built- we are in queue. We'd still buy from the FFL.

It doesn’t work that way with most manufacturers. They don’t even tell FFLs when stuff is coming out and usually don’t take money from end users minus a few custom boutique manufacturers

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by taperxz

It doesn’t work that way with most manufacturers. They don’t even tell FFLs when stuff is coming out and usually don’t take money from end users minus a few custom boutique manufacturers

Yup, the consumer gun biz - even with the big players & bigger distribts -
is one of the most provincial , least automated operations ever.

Hell, IIRC, Colt wanted to force California dealers to buy non-Rostered
Colt pistols that were essentially unsellable just to get the ones that
could be sold. Apparently they thought LEs would be running thru
the doors to buy 1911 variants.

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by NorCalBusa

California is mid-40 million people, maybe 1/3 are <18 yrs old. Leaves 28m new customers...not all will buy, but even half* that would blow the crap out of inventory and lead times.

*wonder how many closet gun owner wannabe dems there are...ya know, just in case

Yeah all the kiddies saving $ to get the guns ... that other people gave $$ out the *** to gun rights groups doing the legal fights.

[Hockeytodd03]

So you want the distributors to hold millions of dollars of unsellable guns to be ready for an unknown date to be ready to sell them? They would need to pay taxes on the inventory. This will happen just like freedom week where the manufactures will make all orders go to California to take advantage o fthe new sales for a few weeks.

[BAJ475]

Originally Posted by Hockeytodd03

So you want the distributors to hold millions of dollars of unsellable guns to be ready for an unknown date to be ready to sell them? They would need to pay taxes on the inventory. This will happen just like freedom week where the manufactures will make all orders go to California to take advantage of the new sales for a few weeks.

Where are you coming from? Unsellable guns? Pay taxes on on inventory that is not in CA? You lost me.

[Scope2x]

It’s pretty simple. Until there is ACTUAL demand. No one is changing anything. If the roster goes away then let the flood gates open. Until then, no manufacturer is going to build millions of guns and just tuck them away for you.

[DrewN]

I mean, if it's that important to you to tool up the instant you can, you might consider moving.

[moleculo]

Originally Posted by BAJ475

Where are you coming from? Unsellable guns? Pay taxes on on inventory that is not in CA? You lost me.

Inventory tax is a tax on unsold inventory at the end of a business' fiscal year. It's a real thing. But that's really a different topic than what this thread is about.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Armed Scholar update on Boland and Renna. Renna is essentially getting a do over so Boland is the one to watch for now. Next move is Jan 23.

https://youtu.be/JEciXtap61s

FYI

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by BAJ475

Where are you coming from? Unsellable guns? Pay taxes on on inventory that is not in CA? You lost me.

Other states have inventory taxes too

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by moleculo

Inventory tax is a tax on unsold inventory at the end of a business' fiscal year. It's a real thing. But that's really a different topic than what this thread is about.

Exactly.

More to the muddled point (not yours!) is that no major gun mfgr or
distributor is gonna ramp up production & inventory for any prospective
court victory unless & until it's fully in the bag. Nobody's gonna build
a warehouse full of otherwise-unavailalbe 1911s/M&Ps etc til things are
over.

Even with Freedom Week mags, several major mfgrs did not move. Only
one did (Beretta) and that's because a CGNer worked there and had
ready access to legal counsel so they just flipped the switch that Sunday
nite on their web store.

Smaller nimble mag/accessory vendors and parts distys DID act that
weekend, but NOBODY started making a huge run of new hicap mags!

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by moleculo

Inventory tax is a tax on unsold inventory at the end of a business' fiscal year. It's a real thing. But that's really a different topic than what this thread is about.

Originally Posted by bwiese

Other states have inventory taxes too

Its actually not even "inventory tax" now, Inventory tax was a while ago where you paid a small percentage of tax on your inventory. It is now full fledged income tax on any asset that exceeds what your previous years inventory was.

If you had $100,000 in inventory the last tax season and now your have $150,000 in inventory you actually pay income tax on the $50,000 straight up.

[moleculo]

Originally Posted by taperxz

Its actually not even "inventory tax" now, Inventory tax was a while ago where you paid a small percentage of tax on your inventory. It is now full fledged income tax on any asset that exceeds what your previous years inventory was.

If you had $100,000 in inventory the last tax season and now your have $150,000 in inventory you actually pay income tax on the $50,000 straight up.

Right, you're getting into the nuance of inventory being accounted as an asset and the tax implications of having significant assets on your books. But this is turning in to a thread hijack.

[rrr70]

Originally Posted by curtisfong

Bizarre.

Mostly a combination of "We are clueless therefore will not respond"

including this howler


and

"There is no claim"

Bonta must really be thinking this court is the State rubberstamping kind. He might be right, but Sabraw appears to be a Bush appointee.

Yeah, right

[DolphinFan]

Drop ship ordering can eliminate any inventory tax.

[abinsinia]

MOTION for Preliminary Injunction Or Alternatively, Motion for Summary Judgment by Richard Bailey, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, Firearms Policy Coalition, Inc., Clint Freeman, Gunfighter Tactical, LLC, Danielle Jaymes, John Klier, Robert Macomber, North County Shooting Center, Inc., PWGG, L.P., Ryan Peterson, John Phillips, Cheryl Prince, Darin Prince, Lana Rae Renna, San Diego County Gun Owners PAC, Laura Schwartz, Michael Schwartz, Second Amendment Foundation, Justin Smith, Hannah Spousta. (Attachments: # 1 Memo of Points and Authorities Memorandum Of Points And Authorities In Support Of Motion For Preliminary Injunction Or Alternatively, Motion For Summary Judgment, # 2 Statement of Facts Separate Statement Of Undisputed Material Facts In Support Of Plaintiffs Motion For Preliminary Injunction Or Alternatively, Motion For Summary Judgment, # 3 Declaration Declaration of Brandon Combs, # 4 Declaration Declaration of Alan Gottlieb, # 5 Declaration Declaration of John Phillips, # 6 Declaration Declaration of Lana Raeinjunction Renna, # 7 Declaration Declaration of Michael Schwartz)(Benbrook, Bradley) (Entered: 12/22/2022)

Renna just filed this motion for preliminary injunction. Lets hope they did the whole thing and not what Boland did limiting it.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/re...92378.71.1.pdf