Renna v Bonta - US Dist Ct So Cal, 11/2020 (Roster aka Peña II)

[moleculo]

This brief is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. California freaking out over home CNC machines milling guns is analogous to Pope Alexander VI excommunicating anyone who had copies of manuscripts or books that were printed on a printing press without the church's approval after Gutenberg invented the movable type printing press. The ability for the average person to build a gun is just as threatening to the ruling class as the ability for the average person to read was back in late 1400/1500's and the DOJ just said as much for everyone to read for themselves.

[gumby]

Originally Posted by moleculo

This brief is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. California freaking out over home CNC machines milling guns is analogous to Pope Alexander VI excommunicating anyone who had copies of manuscripts or books that were printed on a printing press without the church's approval after Gutenberg invented the movable type printing press. The ability for the average person to build a gun is just as threatening to the ruling class as the ability for the average person to read was back in late 1400/1500's and the DOJ just said as much for everyone to read for themselves.

Spot on, sir!

[command_liner]

Originally Posted by moleculo

This brief is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. California freaking out over home CNC machines milling guns is analogous to Pope Alexander VI excommunicating anyone who had copies of manuscripts or books that were printed on a printing press without the church's approval after Gutenberg invented the movable type printing press. The ability for the average person to build a gun is just as threatening to the ruling class as the ability for the average person to read was back in late 1400/1500's and the DOJ just said as much for everyone to read for themselves.

While true, there is a better analogy.

Building guns by hand one-at-a-time can be done, but for manual mass production of firearms either 250 years ago or today, production is greatly eased by the use of file templates and dedicated machines. In fact in the US Revolutionary War, use of filing templates was important to making more guns quickly.

For a dedicated task like making lowers, it is possible to make machining templates and have the mill follow the template. Computer Numeric Control not required. Manual template control can work. And non-computer analog control also works. I used an optically guided cutting torch decades ago, but the same optical guidance can drive a vertical milling machine with analog controls and DC motors.

Want to get rid of CNC? Why? Analog controls will do just fine to make the same parts.

[homelessdude]

Does the state not have to back up their claims? They use the term " Massive increase in gun crime due to ghost guns " twenty times in their motion but do not say what that increase actually is or what the source material is for that claim. Is this material listed somewhere in the motion and I missed it? Does anyone know what these statistics really are?

[cyphr02]

Originally Posted by homelessdude

Does the state not have to back up their claims? They use the term " Massive increase in gun crime due to ghost guns " twenty times in their motion but do not say what that increase actually is or what the source material is for that claim. Is this material listed somewhere in the motion and I missed it? Does anyone know what these statistics really are?

Seems like they may be misrepresenting an increase in crimes committed with unserialized firearms, as crime increasing because of unserialized firearms.

[NorCalBusa]

Originally Posted by homelessdude

Does the state not have to back up their claims? They use the term " Massive increase in gun crime due to ghost guns " twenty times in their motion but do not say what that increase actually is or what the source material is for that claim. Is this material listed somewhere in the motion and I missed it? Does anyone know what these statistics really are?

^ this. Statistics without numbers are meaningless.

[pacrat]

Originally Posted by homelessdude

Does the state not have to back up their claims? They use the term " Massive increase in gun crime due to ghost guns " twenty times in their motion but do not say what that increase actually is or what the source material is for that claim. Is this material listed somewhere in the motion and I missed it? Does anyone know what these statistics really are?

This state has outlawed firearms that fail to incorporate non existent features. And the court upheld the law.

Making blatantly false statistical claims, without corroborative evidence is child's play.

[BAJ475]

Originally Posted by homelessdude

Does the state not have to back up their claims? They use the term " Massive increase in gun crime due to ghost guns " twenty times in their motion but do not say what that increase actually is or what the source material is for that claim. Is this material listed somewhere in the motion and I missed it? Does anyone know what these statistics really are?

Answering your last question, yes they are BS. The states of Idaho, Colorado, South Dakota, Pennsylvania, Delaware, George, Florida Vermont and Rhode Island prohibit the registration of firearms, so guns in these state are not registered. The only states that register firearms are Hawaii, California, Michigan, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut. So for that vast majority of the states all firearms are "ghost guns," especially if they have been transferred after the original purchase from a FFL.

[AdamVIP]

I'm willing to bet that an firearm with a ground off serial number is considered a ghost gun as well, so stolen guns probably end up classified as ghost guns as well.

[curtisfong]

Originally Posted by AdamVIP

I'm willing to bet that an firearm with a ground off serial number is considered a ghost gun as well, so stolen guns probably end up classified as ghost guns as well.

Exactly this. Bonta would like you to believe that it is easier to make a gun from a block of metal than file off the serial numbers an existing one.

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by homelessdude

Does the state not have to back up their claims? They use the term " Massive increase in gun crime due to ghost guns " twenty times in their motion but do not say what that increase actually is or what the source material is for that claim. Is this material listed somewhere in the motion and I missed it? Does anyone know what these statistics really are?

Originally Posted by cyphr02

Seems like they may be misrepresenting an increase in crimes committed with unserialized firearms, as crime increasing because of unserialized firearms.

Originally Posted by NorCalBusa

^ this. Statistics without numbers are meaningless.

The brief incorporates by reference A.B. 1621 at § 1, 2021-2022 Reg. Sess. (Cal. 2022)

SECTION 1. The Legislature finds and declares the following:
(a) The proliferation of unserialized ghost guns built from firearm precursor parts has caused enormous harm and suffering, hampered the ability of law enforcement to trace crime guns and investigate firearm trafficking and other crimes, and dangerously undermined the effectiveness of laws and protections critical to the health, safety, and well-being of Californians.
[…]
(2) Law enforcement officials from cities across California have reported massive increases in the number of unserialized self-assembled ghost guns recovered from homicide cases and other crimes in recent years.
(3) For instance, law enforcement officials in San Francisco reported that 44 percent of guns recovered in San Francisco homicide cases in 2020 were unserialized ghost guns, compared with 6 percent in 2019. Law enforcement officials in San Diego reported recovering 360 ghost guns in just the first nine months of 2021, more than four times as many as the department recovered in all of 2019. According to an October 2021 report by the Los Angeles Police Department, the number of ghost guns seized by the department increased 400 percent since 2017 and more than doubled from 2020 to 2021 alone; the report concluded that “the current trend shows these figures will continue to grow exponentially” and that “ghost guns are an epidemic not only in Los Angeles, but nationwide.” In August 2021, the Los Angeles Police Department reported that ghost guns accounted for 33 percent of all guns recovered by the department in its investigations of suspected criminal activity.
(4) Community violence intervention professionals have also warned that the proliferation of ghost guns in vulnerable communities has intensified in recent years and contributed to a surge in gun deaths disproportionately impacting young people.

[zeneffect]

Pretty lame to be ripping off Twitter and submit it as fact, especially when there is disparity in reporting what is considered as a ghost gun in said "reports"

Try googling some of this stuff and you will find it verbatim on Twitter.

There appears to be no real evidence or statistic being referenced that is truly empirical. If the bar is set at "enormous harm and suffering" then it should be qualified with facts directly relevant to the topic in question with statistics that filter out "too old for serial", or stolen but serial removed, etc.

[abinsinia]

A death in the family.

Extension of Time to File Response/Reply

https://storage.courtlistener.com/re...92378.58.0.pdf

[ritter]

Originally Posted by abinsinia

A death in the family.



https://storage.courtlistener.com/re...92378.58.0.pdf

At least it's a valid reason. Compassion is necessary in life. Needless delay, not so much.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by abinsinia

A death in the family.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/re...92378.58.0.pdf

That's a very reasonable request.
When Bonta has a death in the family, they need an extra 90 days.

[GetMeCoffee]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

That's a very reasonable request.
When Bonta has a death in the family, they need an extra 90 days.

That's because of all the paperwork with the prison.

[abinsinia]

The judge approved the death in the family extension.

[CurlyDave]

Originally Posted by abinsinia

The judge approved the death in the family extension.

It is actually a very reasonable request, and the hearing has not been postponed at all. So, overall there is no delay in the date of the final result. The only negative is less time for our side to prepare for the hearing, but we have the Supremes on our side.

I think not giving the extension would look very bad.

[abinsinia]

The reply to the response was submitted today.

REPLY to Response to Motion re 53 MOTION for Temporary Restraining Order MOTION for Preliminary Injunction filed by Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, Firearms Policy Coalition, Inc., Clint Freeman, Gunfighter Tactical, LLC, Danielle Jaymes, John Klier, Robert Macomber, North County Shooting Center, Inc., PWGG, L.P., Ryan Peterson, John Phillips, Cheryl Prince, Darin Prince, Lana Rae Renna, San Diego County Gun Owners PAC, Laura Schwartz, Michael Schwartz, Second Amendment Foundation, Justin Smith. (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit Declaration of Plaintiff Ruebe)(DiGuiseppe, Raymond) (Entered: 10/03/2022)

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by abinsinia

The reply to the response was submitted today.

Is there a document link to read the reply?

[abinsinia]

Yes.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/re...92378.61.0.pdf

[f80vm]

There is no mention of the roster in recent filings. Were the plaintiffs only seeking injunctions on the CNC bans hence the recent briefs on that topic?

[abinsinia]

Originally Posted by f80vm

There is no mention of the roster in recent filings. Were the plaintiffs only seeking injunctions on the CNC bans hence the recent briefs on that topic?

Yes.

[moleculo]

When it comes to the First Amendment right of “free speech,” to which the Supreme Court has “repeatedly compared the right to keep and bear arms,” Bruen, 142 S.Ct. at 2130, we would never require as a condition to protection that the First Amendment expressly enumerate each of the numerous forms of media and platforms through which people commonly exercise their expressive rights; nor would we ever
say the government may regulate unchecked any device or implement necessary or commonly used in facilitating such speech—press machines, printers, paper, ink, etc.— unless the text expressly declares that item “covered” under the “free speech” protections

and

“We would never say the police may seize and keep printing presses so long as newspapers may replace them...

There's my printing press analogy

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by f80vm

There is no mention of the roster in recent filings. Were the plaintiffs only seeking injunctions on the CNC bans hence the recent briefs on that topic?

Those specific issues will immediately impact individuals. The CNC ban would require individuals owning the machines to dispose of them; the litigation issue would immediately chill litigation on all 2A fronts in CA.

The Roster is the Roster. If the case kills it, we get rid of the Roster; if the case doesn’t kill it, the Roster continues.

[NorCalBusa]

Originally Posted by Dvrjon

Those specific issues will immediately impact individuals. The CNC ban would require individuals owning the machines to dispose of them; the litigation issue would immediately chill litigation on all 2A fronts in CA.

The Roster is the Roster. If the case kills it, we get rid of the Roster*; if the case doesn’t kill it, the Roster continues.

*I vote "A"- open the gates, let loose the dogs of war!

Can you imagine the overnight shortage of handguns there will be? Like ammo the last 2 years...

[abinsinia]

Originally Posted by NorCalBusa

*I vote "A"- open the gates, let loose the dogs of war!

Can you imagine the overnight shortage of handguns there will be? Like ammo the last 2 years...

I hope 1 in 30 is gone before that day comes.

[TruOil]

Originally Posted by NorCalBusa

*I vote "A"- open the gates, let loose the dogs of war!

The would be: "Cry ‘Havoc!’ and let slip the dogs of war!’ "

[NorCalBusa]

Originally Posted by TruOil

The would be: "Cry ‘Havoc!’ and let slip the dogs of war!’ "

Yeah, they changed what I said. Fookers.

[abinsinia]

The Plaintiff dropped the request for the TRO,

https://storage.courtlistener.com/re...92378.63.0.pdf

Not sure what the plan was here.

[curtisfong]

Originally Posted by abinsinia

The Plaintiff dropped the request for the TRO,

bummer

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by abinsinia

The Plaintiff dropped the request for the TRO,

https://storage.courtlistener.com/re...92378.63.0.pdf

Not sure what the plan was here.

Probably related to the 10/7 hearings.
Is there any way to get a court transcript of what conspired in court?

[abinsinia]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Probably related to the 10/7 hearings.
Is there any way to get a court transcript of what conspired in court?

I think it takes them a month to post them.

[f80vm]

Are we now waiting for the judge to rule on this case?

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by f80vm

Are we now waiting for the judge to rule on this case?

I think there will be hearings and additional briefs before a ruling can occur.
Since the case was amended to fit within Bruen, it's basically starting the whole legal process over again since the rulings that were in place during the initial filing are no longer the rules of the game now that Bruen has changed the rules of the game.

[Drivedabizness]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

I think there will be hearings and additional briefs before a ruling can occur.
Since the case was amended to fit within Bruen, it's basically starting the whole legal process over again since the rulings that were in place during the initial filing are no longer the rules of the game now that Bruen has changed the rules of the game.

Umm, no.

Bruen said the Heller test & precedent have existed since Heller - Courts have been using the wrong standard instead of the one they should have been using.

These cases have already been tried on the merits, and the case facts are not in dispute - we won those cases under Heller. It was the 9CA (typically in en banc) that overturned the trial(s) of fact.

The only dispute now is if the State can come up with any historical analogy, from the founding, for the the laws being challenged.

While it's possible the 9CA will still try to play their usual games, at the District level our victory should be expected as a matter of routine - with no need to "start over".

[ar15barrels]

The new hearings/briefs will be required specifically BECAUSE the courts had previously been allowing the wrong tests to be used and the state had based it's previous arguments on that.
Failure to let the state make a NEW argument under Bruen would be grounds for the new district court decision to be overturned on appeal AGAIN so the district court absolutely will let both sides re-brief the case and probably hold hearings as well so that there are fewer grounds for appeal.

Originally Posted by Drivedabizness

Umm, no.

Bruen said the Heller test & precedent have existed since Heller - Courts have been using the wrong standard instead of the one they should have been using.

These cases have already been tried on the merits, and the case facts are not in dispute - we won those cases under Heller. It was the 9CA (typically in en banc) that overturned the trial(s) of fact.

The only dispute now is if the State can come up with any historical analogy, from the founding, for the the laws being challenged.

While it's possible the 9CA will still try to play their usual games, at the District level our victory should be expected as a matter of routine - with no need to "start over".

[ritter]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

The new hearings/briefs will be required specifically BECAUSE the courts had previously been allowing the wrong tests to be used and the state had based it's previous arguments on that.
Failure to let the state make a NEW argument under Bruen would be grounds for the new district court decision to be overturned on appeal AGAIN so the district court absolutely will let both sides re-brief the case and probably hold hearings as well so that there are fewer grounds for appeal.

Which is BS since it allows the state essentially endless do overs, or, more correctly, do (it wrong) overs. This is precisely why these constitutional cases should be enjoined whilst traveling leisurely through the courts. Otherwise, the state has no real reason to even try to comply since it will just get kicked down for another "wrong standard, too many steps" do over.

But I don't recall Renna ever making it to a decision or appeal, so it hasn't really been tested under Heller or Bruen yet. Or maybe I'm wrong about that.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by ritter

But I don't recall Renna ever making it to a decision or appeal, so it hasn't really been tested under Heller or Bruen yet.

Correct.
Which is why we are still at the beginning on this case.

The previously proposed schedule was here:
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...6&postcount=72

Then after Bruen hit, they requested to amend the initial complaint to again include some of the things that were initially denied by the judge.

[f80vm]

Plaintiffs voluntarily dismiss counts 2-7 of the second amended complaint. Will file third amended complaint by 10/31. Response from Bonta due 11/14.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/re...92378.65.0.pdf