Teter et al v. Connors et al Hawaii Butterfly knife federal lawsuit filed

[wolfwood]

https://www.scribd.com/document/4058...h-All-Exhibits

[speedrrracer]

I wonder if including this sort of discussion is wise:

The old argument is that a switch blade or balisong is too dangerous to be entrusted to the public because a citizen can pull and quickly open the blade with one hand.
(snip)
Butterfly knife 1.3, 1.4. 1.2, 1.5 Average = 1.35 seconds

(emphasis mine)

Talking about speed, lethality, statistics -- all this seems like giving up territory and giving ammunition to the other side. So if balisongs were ultra-fast instead of slow on the draw should they continue to be banned? If their handles did not enclose the blade, should they continue to be banned? If they accounted for a higher percentage of murders in HI than pistols, should they continue to be banned?

Arms are supposed to be dangerous, lethal, etc. It's the whole point, and the reason why protecting the right to keep and bear them is so important. Opening the door to arbitrary measures as a reason why weapon X is OK will eventually backfire against us, because there is no limit to which arbitrary measures of safety / speed / lethality can be introduced, and it won't take long until the antis will find those arbitrary measures which favor their side, and then what?

None of this should be taken as a criticism of your great work, just having a discussion and trying to learn from the man on the front lines!

[Unbekannt]

Traditional Chinese Martial Arts also have what they call a Butterfly knives. These are actually paired, rather broad, flat blades maybe 18 inches long. They are used like nunchucks in their motion. These are basically Bronze Age weapons and really have no practical value in the modern world except as a training tool.

Your butterfly knives are different from these but I am wondering if these Chinese knives were banned in Hawaii too?

[skyblue314]

Originally Posted by wolfwood

Today I filed a case I've been wanting to file for about 7 years. Hawaii bans the ownership of butterfly knives for no apparent reason. Thankfully Burton Richardson Andrew Namiki Roberts and the Hawaii Firearms Coalition have teamed up with myself and my clients to challenge this unconstitutional law. Please look at the complaint and Burton's expert report.



https://www.scribd.com/document/4058...ith-Burton-Dec

I'd love someone to file suit in California too. They aren't illegal to own, but sales are still banned.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[readysetgo]

Free the balisong!

Did you reach out/coordinate with KnifeRights?

[M1NM]

You need to look no further than the flag of Hawaii as to why they would adopt English style knife bans.
Attachment 794954

[bohoki]

reminds me of that new york nunchuck lawsuit

[pacrat]

the right of the people to keep and bear ARMS, shall not be infringed.

No mention of just firearms.

GO GET EM WOLFIE

[Mrbroom]

Originally Posted by wolfwood

California also ban nunchucks. I think that would be a good case down the road in light of the NY ruling

My daughters Tae Kwon Do school still teaches with nunchucks. I don’t know the exact wording of the law however they are allowed to own them and teach. My daughter who will be testing for her black belt in a few months will be able to purchase and own them once that level is achieved according to our studio. Maybe a martial arts enthusiast exemption or something.

[wpod]

Originally Posted by Mrbroom

My daughters Tae Kwon Do school still teaches with nunchucks. I don’t know the exact wording of the law however they are allowed to own them and teach. My daughter who will be testing for her black belt in a few months will be able to purchase and own them once that level is achieved according to our studio. Maybe a martial arts enthusiast exemption or something.

They can be owned for demonstration/competition use onlyaq

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[357manny]

Awesome, thank you sir for filing!

Here's another article detailing your efforts:
https://www.ammoland.com/2019/04/haw...ndment-grounds

[DisgruntledReaper]

So these cork suckers basically dont want to cough anyhthing up and cry and whine and object to everything...

Well,in the future we the firearm and knife owning public should be able to cite the same reasons or variations of,such as how vague and ambiguous various gun control laws are and the fact that they are intentionally vague cannot be accurately interpreted and cause pain and burden upon us...

What a bunch of tools,worthless,id be on their asses for being incompetent in the job and duties.

I wish you luck and hopefully someone with balls calks them out on their bs.

[aBrowningfan]

Originally Posted by Mrbroom

My daughters Tae Kwon Do school still teaches with nunchucks. I don’t know the exact wording of the law however they are allowed to own them and teach. My daughter who will be testing for her black belt in a few months will be able to purchase and own them once that level is achieved according to our studio. Maybe a martial arts enthusiast exemption or something.

The CA ban on nunchaku would seem to be a good opportunity for a test case: https://www.mantecabulletin.com/opin...ng-overturned/

[hermosabeach]

My machete is already open

[Sir Toast]

But the children? ?????

[saki302]

Haha, nunchucks would be cool to own.. but are more dangerous to rhenuser unless you're trained in their use (I wasn't. nearly cracked an elbow when I was 12!)

[wolfwood]

Initial disclosures filed.

https://www.scribd.com/document/4208...duIKKPO6znJW80

[Paladin]

Be sure to edit the title of this thread with the case name and status.

[Epaphroditus]

Fixed blades are legal and already "open" so the speed argument is asinine. Brandishing laws already cover "scary" situations.

[crufflers]

Originally Posted by hermosabeach

My machete is already open

My machete is in a canvas sheath with slow as hell snap closures.

[billt]

This has always turned me on about Butterfly Knives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYTp...index=163&t=0s

[DrjonesUSA]

Thanks for the updates & for fighting this battle!
Best of luck!!!

[wolfwood]

MSJ got filed


https://www.scribd.com/document/4429...-case-MSJ-Memo


https://www.scribd.com/document/4429...t-and-Exhibits

[HUTCH 7.62]

Originally Posted by bohoki

reminds me of that new york nunchuck lawsuit

Just having a hard time envisioning a guy robbing liqueur stores with nunchucks

[wolfwood]

Hawaii filed its MSJ

Now its time to write the opposition

https://www.scribd.com/document/4431...FV4gJ7YYn8E0do

[wolfwood]

Hawaii Firearms Coalition filed an amicus brief

https://www.scribd.com/document/4431...arms-Coalition

[Jalibass]

Originally Posted by Epaphroditus

Fixed blades are legal and already "open" so the speed argument is asinine. Brandishing laws already cover "scary" situations.

Good going... now they are likely working on a law that will compel all fixed blade owners to audibly count to three before drawing a fixed blade from its sheath.

[phrogg111]

You got the logic completely wrong on your lawsuit.

If a butterfly knife is more dangerous, it is more constitutionally protected.

The 2nd amendment protects "arms" - not tools.

It protects "arms" for the purpose of "the people" maintaining "the security of a free State"

If the object you're trying to talk about, related to the 2nd amendment, cannot be used to assault people, whenever assaulting people is "necessary to the security of a free State", then it is not constitutionally protected at all.

It is not my opinion, but inarguable fact, that the 2nd amendment ONLY protects weapons for assaulting people.

This argument is first and foremost why the 2nd amendment should be winning here.

The secondary argument is that the knife laws do nothing that the states claim they do. They do nothing to public safety, as other knives can open more quickly than a butterfly knife by far. They don't help keep people from being hurt, as they're not used in crimes that often. These secondary arguments are also reason to throw the knife bans out completely...

But the most important argument is that banning weapons, for assaulting peopel, violates 18USC 241 - Conspiracy Against Rights, and 18USC 242 - Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law. These two laws carry a maximum penalty of death. When lawmakers should be put in prison, up to life, or put to death, for passing these unconstitutional state laws, there is no question that the laws need to be thrown out immediately.

[bohoki]

the burden should be that they are somehow more dangerous than a comparable legal product and the case should be dismissed the moment a master balisong user goes up against anyone with any assisted opener in an opening contest

[Kukuforguns]

Originally Posted by wolfwood

Hawaii filed its MSJ

Now its time to write the opposition

https://www.scribd.com/document/4431...FV4gJ7YYn8E0do

I haven't read the amicus briefs, but the MSJ itself contains some real whoppers.

1) HI argues that because gang members possess butterfly knives, it follows that law abiding citizens do not typically possess butterfly knives. This is a logical fallacy. Butterfly knives can be possessed by both law-abiding citizens and criminals. In fact, HI's own evidence indicates that butterfly knives were being sold openly, which suggests that law-abiding citizens do possess the knives.

2) HI argues that butterfly knives are more dangerous than "regular" knives because they are readily concealable whereas regular knives are not readily concealable. I think you should go to court with a whole bunch of regular (albeit rubber) knives secreted on your person and start pulling them out of your sleeves and pockets.

That is a startlingly incompetent MSJ.

[wolfwood]

Today we filed our opposition to the State of Hawaii's motion for summary judgement. In person oral arguments have been canceled due to the virus but we should be having telephonic arguments on April 28th.

https://www.scribd.com/document/4540...fly-Knife-Case

[wolfwood]

State of Hawaii opposition to our summary judgement
https://pdfhost.io/v/V0a0OdRRA_Teter...y_knifepdf.pdf

[The War Wagon]

If CA is "STOOOOPID on steroids," than HI is "STOOOPID on acid!"

[DrjonesUSA]

Hopefully someone here can help rather than me starting a new thread.

I just wanted to double-double check this because this state is such a clown world.

I recently purchased a balisong trainer, similar to this;

https://www.bladehq.com/item--Boker-...Trainer--76461

It's a totally UN-sharpened, NON-functional blade; a pure trainer.

I wanted to verify that such an item is 100% LEGAL for me to own & carry in public in this clown world state of California.

IF a cop were to stop to ensure it wasn't a live blade (which it very clearly isn't, but at a distance who knows) would I be in any risk of arrest, citation, or having it confiscated?

I think a trainer bali is the ultimate fidget toy and there are some true work of art trainers out there!

To stay OT, LIBERATE THE BALISONG!

Thank you!

[FirearmFino]

ORDER DENYING PLAINTIFFS' MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT AND GRANTING THE STATE'S MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT, re ECF 33 Plaintiffs' Motion, and ECF 36 State's Motion - Signed by JUDGE ALAN C. KAY on 5/13/2020.For the foregoing reasons, the Court holds that HRS ยง 134-53(a) is not an unconstitutional restriction on the right to bear arms under the Second Amendment. To summarize the Court's ruling: (1) butterfly knives are bearable arms that trigger Second Amendment protections; (2) the Court assumes without deciding that butterfly knives are commonly used by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes and therefore fall within the historical scope of the Second Amendment; (3) the ban on butterfly knives is not per se unconstitutional under Heller; (4) because the ban implicates the core right under the Second Amendment but does not severely burden that right, intermediate scrutiny applies; and (5) the statute survives intermediate scrutiny because it furthers the State's important interest to promote public safety by reducing access to butterfly knives, which leads to gang-related crime.While recognizing that Heller does not cleanly resolve all the constitutional questions at play here, this analysis is faithful to Heller. The Court hereby DENIES Plaintiffs' Motion for Summary Judgment and GRANTS the State's Motion for Summary Judgment.(jni) (Entered: 05/13/2020)

https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/...43892.61.0.pdf

[Offwidth]

Here we go. Intermediate scrutiny all the things. No one cares about the common use standard.

[TruOil]

What evidence was there that balisongs, which I assume have been banned for some time, lead to gang-related crime but assisted opening knives do not?

[press1280]

Originally Posted by TruOil

What evidence was there that balisongs, which I assume have been banned for some time, lead to gang-related crime but assisted opening knives do not?

So the logic here is that gang bangers will put away their life of crime if butterfly knives are banned. Are these judges that stupid?

[Offwidth]

Originally Posted by TruOil

What evidence was there that balisongs, which I assume have been banned for some time, lead to gang-related crime but assisted opening knives do not?

Government said so. Evidence not required. Obey.

[DrjonesUSA]

Originally Posted by wolfwood

https://pdfhost.io/v/e47uMzsB9_Teter...g_Briefpdf.pdf

opening brief filed

Thanks for this!!