California "FFL 03 Friendly" Ammunition Dealers starting 1/1/18

[97F1504RAD]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

I think you over estimate how many people are getting 03FFL's and COE's to buy ammo online.
The vast majority of shooters who do not reload are still working off of stockpiles from last year or buying at local stores now.

I was taking that as his sales numbers prior to the new law. Since he claimed his Cali sales were only 1%. He did not say since the new law went into effect.

And besides all that he still ships to states that require similar documentation so it makes even less sense since the same amount of paperwork is involved for those other states.

[rice_man]

Originally Posted by CessnaDriver

Honestly I don't get it. This is the computer age. I don't see the big challenge here.

Plus why not adapt to this and add the ability to your business since there could be future advantages to processing such orders.

Seems short sighted. Anyways bummer.

I'm guessing he's seeing the challenge as dealing with California DOJ because some idiot couldn't or wouldn't follow instructions.

It is odd though that he's accommodating to other states requiring similar accounting.

[Paperchasin]

Sucks that we lost SGAmmo, but more worried about the victory for the CA anti-2A'ers

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by 97F1504RAD

I was taking that as his sales numbers prior to the new law.
Since he claimed his Cali sales were only 1%.
He did not say since the new law went into effect.

Do you actually think that everyone who USED TO order from SGA before the new law went into effect is going to get a COE/03FFL and keep ordering?
Of course they are not so of course CA sales have dropped dramatically since last year.
CA was most definitely way more than 1% of his 2016-2017 sales and probably way less than 1% of his 2018 sales.

I'm quite certain he is talking about the 2018 CA sales are 1% (probably far less) of his 2018 business and that's why he does not care to do the extra compliance paperwork.
I'm sure things would be different if even 10% of his 2016-2017 CA customers got their COE/03FFL and wanted to buy from SGA.
That would be sales worth working for.
We are less than 3 months into the new law taking effect.
It's going to take time for the process to adjust...

[97F1504RAD]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Do you actually think that everyone who USED TO order from SGA before the new law went into effect is going to get a COE/03FFL and keep ordering?
Of course they are not so of course CA sales have dropped dramatically since last year.
CA was most definitely way more than 1% of his 2016-2017 sales and probably way less than 1% of his 2018 sales.

I'm quite certain he is talking about the 2018 CA sales are 1% (probably far less) of his 2018 business and that's why he does not care to do the extra compliance paperwork.
I'm sure things would be different if even 10% of his 2016-2017 CA customers got their COE/03FFL and wanted to buy from SGA.
That would be sales worth working for.
We are less than 3 months into the new law taking effect.
It's going to take time for the process to adjust...

I never said everyone that use to order was getting their FFL/COE , not only that but I venture to guess that many who are getting one may not even have it yet.
I just got mine about two weeks ago so there has not even been enough time to judge how well or poorly sales for this year would be.

I’m sure if he is only basing his sales on the past 2.5 months it is most likely even less than 1% as many people ar3 still waiting to get licenses.

My main point is he goes through the same hassle for at least three other states and continues to sell to them.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by 97F1504RAD

My main point is he goes through the same hassle for at least three other states and continues to sell to them.

It's going to take time for the process to adjust.

Give it a year or two when most of the people who are going to get their COE/FFL03 an actually need to place orders and I bet things will change.
At some point, SGA will probably switch out their website and add better capabilities to make tracking the compliance documents easier.
Something like that could completely change how their process works.
For all we know, those other states only have a single compliance document and that's what SGA's current web database is setup for...

[SkyHawk]

Until CA DOJ offers online COE verification, I could see this being a headache. And ATF does not offer online 03 FFL verification that I am aware of.

After a couple months I would like to approach SGA again. It would be nice if we could get a bunch of big orders together to give him at one time, from legit 03/COE holders, to change his mind. And rather than dogging him, we should also try and come up with ideas that are easy to implement so he can continue to take orders.

For our own sake, we need to try. This very well may not be the last time /vendor we have to deal with this.

[97F1504RAD]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

It's going to take time for the process to adjust.

Give it a year or two when most of the people who are going to get their COE/FFL03 an actually need to place orders and I bet things will change.
At some point, SGA will probably switch out their website and add better capabilities to make tracking the compliance documents easier.
Something like that could completely change how their process works.
For all we know, those other states only have a single compliance document and that's what SGA's current web database is setup for...

The process to submit docs at SGA is actually very simple. You simply have to get him an image of both docs in one image and upload it upon your first order/checkout then he looks at them and your clear to continue to buy. Not sure what he could do to make it any easier.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by 97F1504RAD

The process to submit docs at SGA is actually very simple. You simply have to get him an image of both docs in one image and upload it upon your first order/checkout then he looks at them and your clear to continue to buy. Not sure what he could do to make it any easier.

Automatic verification of entered FFL/COE numbers by the web server would certainly be easier.
Maybe those other states issue a number and have a way for a web backend to verify them automatically.

[97F1504RAD]

Seems to me they are about the same as what our overlords want.


Conditions of Use
Purchasing requirements: Ammunition buyer must be over the age of 21 years to purchase pistol ammo, 18 years for rifle ammo, and never have been convicted of a felony or adjudicated as mentally defective or been committed to a mental institution. All state, local and federal laws apply. By placing an order on this website you certify that you can legally purchase, receive and own ammunition. Please do not attempt purchase if you are prohibited from buying the item in your area.

Restrictions:

Attention CA customers : Sorry, as of 3/16/18 we no longer accept sales to anyone in California. No exceptions or exemptions.

Attention CT customers : Please upload a picture of your required documentation in checkout. Acceptable documentation is an FFL dealer’s license by itself (not including type 03 C&R licenses), or a valid CT permit to carry a pistol or revolver, or a valid CT long gun eligibility certificate.

Attention NY customers : In New York State we ship ammunition orders only to FFL dealers. Please upload a picture of your required documentation in checkout. Acceptable documentation is an FFL dealer’s license with an address that matches the ship-to address for the order. The shipping address must match the FFL or we will not ship the order.

No Shipments to the state of Massachusetts or the cities of Washington D.C. or Chicago, IL. All other IL residents must provide an image of their FOID card and a copy of a second state issued ID when they place an order. There is a section in the checkout form to upload an image file of the FOID card which is required. If you have difficulties uploading the FOID please contact us through the 'contact us' section of the website.

We cannot ship to Alaska or Hawaii as transportation of ammunition by Air is prohibited by law in 49CFR. If you are a resident of one of these areas please do not attempt to purchase. Our system charges credit cards when the order is placed and if you make a purchase and are from an area listed above your order will be canceled and refund will be less up to 10% fee to cover the lost costs from the attempted transaction.

[2761377]

from his e-mail-

"... dealing with the CA clients dealers and processes literally doubled the amount of admin work for me, as in twice as many emails to deal with, twice as many database queries, 5 to 10 times as many document corrections, dealing with clients and dealers that did not want to follow our protocol or fudged their documentation, and more, it actually made me start hating my job for the first time in 17 years..."

for years I've realized people suck. only recently have I come to understand that's because I only know Californians.

as a 3rd generation native, that makes me sad.

[Agent Akin]

Anyone know of any alternatives to SGAmmo? I’ve literally spent more then ten thousand dollars there over the past few years. Thye had some of the best selections and prices around.

[fawndog]

I just wrote them a "Thank You" letter.

I too have spent thousands with SGAmmo going back to 2013, they were always fine and I was happy to give them the business.
No reason to sour that.

[adam6955]

SAMs reply to my reply,

Sorry, I wish I could be more accommodating, it has just unbearable task for me to keep dealing with the California market protocol, you would have to sit at my desk for a day to see what I have had to deal with to really understand. I am the only administrator here at SGAmmo and getting a never ending stream of typically 100 extra emails a day about California sales, dealing with difficult dealers and clients that want to rework my protocol to suite what makes it easiest to them and more work for me, dealing people that do not follow simple instructions that make extra jobs for me to fix, matching but documents from a transfer dealer to the client that they are intended for, constant document corrections for orders submitted without valid documents, and more, all of that on top of a bunch of other very important responsibilities I have to this busienss that are required to make it work, its just too much extra work for me to take on for a market that adds to 0.6% of my sales. I am not sure where you work or how much you get paid but in theory if you made $30 an hour today doing a job you love, or could get $30.18 but had to work twice as hard to the point you hated doing your job I am sure the extra 18 cents an hour would not be worth it to you either. I do wish Californians the best of luck in the situation, and there are other vendors with bigger staffs that are better equipped to handle the situation that sell there so you are not without options.

[SkyHawk]

It sounds like maybe it would be easier if he just focused on direct shipments to 03/COE customers and not trying to match non-exempt buyers to 01 FFLs. And I am sure 01FFLs are giving him no love and plenty of hassle.

I still say we make a run at him in a couple of months with a proposal coupled with a bunch of easy peasy but big orders.

[tracy9676]

Originally Posted by adam6955

SAMs reply to my reply,

Sorry, I wish I could be more accommodating, it has just unbearable task for me to keep dealing with the California market protocol, you would have to sit at my desk for a day to see what I have had to deal with to really understand. I am the only administrator here at SGAmmo and getting a never ending stream of typically 100 extra emails a day about California sales, dealing with difficult dealers and clients that want to rework my protocol to suite what makes it easiest to them and more work for me, dealing people that do not follow simple instructions that make extra jobs for me to fix, matching but documents from a transfer dealer to the client that they are intended for, constant document corrections for orders submitted without valid documents, and more, all of that on top of a bunch of other very important responsibilities I have to this busienss that are required to make it work, its just too much extra work for me to take on for a market that adds to 0.6% of my sales. I am not sure where you work or how much you get paid but in theory if you made $30 an hour today doing a job you love, or could get $30.18 but had to work twice as hard to the point you hated doing your job I am sure the extra 18 cents an hour would not be worth it to you either. I do wish Californians the best of luck in the situation, and there are other vendors with bigger staffs that are better equipped to handle the situation that sell there so you are not without options.

SGAmmo is a family business. Labor is always holding the thin end of the stick on family run businesses.

Guess it looks like they have only have one person in charge of screening sales, but most likely needs two.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

[adam6955]

Originally Posted by SkyHawk

It sounds like maybe it would be easier if he just focused on direct shipments to 03/COE customers and not trying to match non-exempt buyers to 01 FFLs. And I am sure 01FFLs are giving him no love and plenty of hassle.

I still say we make a run at him in a couple of months with a proposal coupled with a bunch of easy peasy but big orders.

That was my reply. Why not let those who already have valid info on file continue ordering throughout the duration of their 03/COE. I dropped over $200 on 03/COE to order from SG Ammo, and barely got a month out of it.

Honestly a small upgrade to the website, and a spreadsheet, would resolve this for us COE holders at least. And a "preferred FFL" setup like most gun vendors have.

And yes, another employee lol. Tack on $5-$10 onto every CA order to pay for it. I would pay it.

[rice_man]

Originally Posted by adam6955

SAMs reply to my reply,

Sorry, I wish I could be more accommodating, it has just unbearable task for me to keep dealing with the California market protocol, you would have to sit at my desk for a day to see what I have had to deal with to really understand. I am the only administrator here at SGAmmo and getting a never ending stream of typically 100 extra emails a day about California sales, dealing with difficult dealers and clients that want to rework my protocol to suite what makes it easiest to them and more work for me, dealing people that do not follow simple instructions that make extra jobs for me to fix, matching but documents from a transfer dealer to the client that they are intended for, constant document corrections for orders submitted without valid documents, and more, all of that on top of a bunch of other very important responsibilities I have to this busienss that are required to make it work, its just too much extra work for me to take on for a market that adds to 0.6% of my sales. I am not sure where you work or how much you get paid but in theory if you made $30 an hour today doing a job you love, or could get $30.18 but had to work twice as hard to the point you hated doing your job I am sure the extra 18 cents an hour would not be worth it to you either. I do wish Californians the best of luck in the situation, and there are other vendors with bigger staffs that are better equipped to handle the situation that sell there so you are not without options.

Originally Posted by rice_man

While I don't know what his exact situation is I will tend to disagree. I am self employed and have had my own business for 17 years. I don't have any employees. Just me. I don't "have to do my job". I do it because I like doing it and I'm fairly good at what I do. If it ever came to the point where I had so much bureaucratic headaches to deal with that I would either
a) find something else to do or
b) keep doing what I love doing but get rid of the part that gives me a headache.

I really don't see it as a cop out from a pure business perspective. I've turned down jobs that would have made me good money but it either involved way too much trouble or travel. Neither of which is worth it to me. I still do well enough without to pay bills and put food on the table.

Well I think I read that one right. There is hope though. Maybe he can try only serving FFL03 holders and not try to work with FFL01 transfers. That would certainly simplify things. He changed his policy once to exclude all of CA. Maybe he can change it again once all the dust settles from current CA orders and he can clearly define a specific FFL03 policy moving forward. Maybe those that have reached out to him recently can do so again in a month or two when he isn't inundated and can think things out logically?

[97F1504RAD]

Originally Posted by SkyHawk

It sounds like maybe it would be easier if he just focused on direct shipments to 03/COE customers and not trying to match non-exempt buyers to 01 FFLs. And I am sure 01FFLs are giving him no love and plenty of hassle.

I still say we make a run at him in a couple of months with a proposal coupled with a bunch of easy peasy but big orders.

Originally Posted by adam6955

That was my reply. Why not let those who already have valid info on file continue ordering throughout the duration of their 03/COE. I dropped over $200 on 03/COE to order from SG Ammo, and barely got a month out of it.

Honestly a small upgrade to the website, and a spreadsheet, would resolve this for us COE holders at least. And a "preferred FFL" setup like most gun vendors have.

And yes, another employee lol. Tack on $5-$10 onto every CA order to pay for it. I would pay it.

Originally Posted by rice_man

Well I think I read that one right. There is hope though. Maybe he can try only serving FFL03 holders and not try to work with FFL01 transfers. That would certainly simplify things. He changed his policy once to exclude all of CA. Maybe he can change it again once all the dust settles from current CA orders and he can clearly define a specific FFL03 policy moving forward. Maybe those that have reached out to him recently can do so again in a month or two when he isn't inundated and can think things out logically?

Agreed, and maybe those of us with 03FFL/COE can send him an email thanking him for sticking with us this long and make that suggestion.

EDIT: SEnd the letters guys if you have your 30FFL/COE

I did and his reply gives me hope.

I am not going to post what he said but trust me there is still hope.

[CessnaDriver]

The extra workload would go to almost nothing I would think for that too.

[adam6955]

Agreed. Give it time and be more polite than me!!

Originally Posted by 97F1504RAD

Agreed, and maybe those of us with 03FFL/COE can send him an email thanking him for sticking with us this long and make that suggestion.

EDIT: SEnd the letters guys if you have your 30FFL/COE

I did and his reply gives me hope.

I am not going to post what he said but trust me there is still hope.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by tracy9676

Guess it looks like they have only have one person in charge of screening sales, but most likely needs two.

Adding a person requires raising your prices to cover the extra overhead.
Raising your prices reduces your sales when you are in a commodities business and people are buying from you BECAUSE of your low pricing.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by adam6955

I dropped over $200 on 03/COE

Why did you spend so much?
Did your livescan place rape you?

[tracy9676]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Adding a person requires raising your prices to cover the extra overhead.
Raising your prices reduces your sales when you are in a commodities business and people are buying from you BECAUSE of your low pricing.

Yep, my comment was based upon my experience working for my Dad's business (aka the family business)

He paid terrible wages. I join the Army instead. Same amount of yelling, better pay.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by tracy9676

Yep, my comment was based upon my experience working for my Dad's business (aka the family business)

He paid terrible wages. I join the Army instead. Same amount of yelling, better pay.

I worked in the family business for 5 years before I got out.
I know your pain...

[fawndog]

Originally Posted by 97F1504RAD

Agreed, and maybe those of us with 03FFL/COE can send him an email thanking him for sticking with us this long and make that suggestion.

EDIT: SEnd the letters guys if you have your 30FFL/COE

I did and his reply gives me hope.

I am not going to post what he said but trust me there is still hope.

[CAGLS]

Just uploaded my 03FFL/COE with Target Sports, completed my ammo order without a hitch. Too bad we lost Sgammo. I saved more with TS from free shipping.

[doyouevenchop]

Really too bad about SGammo. I just went in today to try to buy a bunch of stuff and saw the notice... I've already done 2 purchases from them this year with my FFL03 and COE on file.

I've have to try TS next

[Sousuke]

I agree with skyhawk. If 30 of us approach him in say may with at least 1000rd orders it may sway his opinion. I actually don’t think it’s CA itself that’s the problem. It’s the volume which in part is the newness of the law. If he restarts for ffl03 in a few months quietly then he shouldn’t get a barrage.

I think his busy comment and 1% comment are conflicting though. If he were that busy then the future orders he would get probably would be much higher.

[adam6955]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Why did you spend so much?
Did your livescan place rape you?

The DOJ sent me the wrong form. I called to get the right form, since there are multiple versions on the DOJ website (which they disagree with me regarding)... That's what I get. So I had to eat the $60 for the live scan with no FBI check and pay to have it done again.

Biggest problem with losing SG Ammo, aside from a vendor who usually tried not to gouge, is that he carries a lot of ammo you cannot get elsewhere. Especially AK food.

[Mute]

Another thing ruined by Californians and their politics.

[Agent Akin]

Sheesh does anyone know of any CA friendly vendors that sell IMI ammo? SGAmmo and Sportsman's Guide are the only two I know of, and both refuse to sell to us...

[deephouse]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Sounds like the amount of work does not justify the amount of sales.

I've emailed SGAmmo in the past about that and he has also expressed the same sentiment.

Personally i think he is understaffed AND may not be willing to use some technology out there to facilitate some of the process.

If it was a market as large as Ca and they are willing to provide the necessary paperwork I would do what I could to automate that rather then just cut it out. It just takes a bit of work up front and fine tuning up.

It's almost like he doesn't want to admit that maybe his ordering/verification process is the problem. But anyways....moving on...

[97F1504RAD]

Originally Posted by Agent Akin

Sheesh does anyone know of any CA friendly vendors that sell IMI ammo? SGAmmo and Sportsman's Guide are the only two I know of, and both refuse to sell to us...

Currently OOS, but it appears they carry it.

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/223-....aspx#Ma892%7C

[Agent Akin]

Originally Posted by 97F1504RAD

Currently OOS, but it appears they carry it.

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/223-....aspx#Ma892%7C

I should have mentioned “in stock”... heh... there’s a number of places that list it but never have it.

[userformerlyknownasfitty]

Sucks that Targetsports is out of stock on so many products

[vintagearms]

If CA only accounts for 1%, I’m curious what state buys the most ammo from SG?

[Scratch705]

Originally Posted by vintagearms

If CA only accounts for 1%, I’m curious what state buys the most ammo from SG?

states with legal machine gun ownership?

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by vintagearms

If CA only accounts for 1%, I’m curious what state buys the most ammo from SG?

Probably Texas and Florida.

[thmpr]

The question should be "CA ammo sales worth it?" They just need to do the basic ROI analysis and make their decision from there. Rather than using I won't sell it because it takes too much time and hassle.
If the profit margin is there, why not........it amazes me when a business does no think this way.