Open Letter - how can we make Calguns.net better?

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by PewPewBoomBoom

Came here to post this.

I'm a new user and some deals are very enticing, only to find out they're in LA.

I'd like to be able to see guns I can actually buy this weekend by filtering by area. We can start super simple with "Northern California" and "Southern California"

Searching just on 'marketplace' this is the 22nd post in this thread since 2014 asking for a geographic split. Popular idea.

Now, here's what a member posting in the marketplace forums gets:

A title prompt:
Item, Location, Will Ship/No Shipping

and content prompts:
Make:

Model:

Caliber:

Location (city or county):

Price:

Will ship (Y/N):

Other info:



*REMOVE THIS PART BEFORE POSTING*
SELLERS, you may bump this ONE TIME each 24 Hours starting at Midnight
BUYERS, send questions or offers to Seller using Private Messages

Note that 'location' reminders are in both the title and the content.

There are 7 main Marketplace forums. A simple split into North/South would give us 14, not 7.

Where, exactly, is the dividing line between North and South? How do we get members to agree? What do we do about members who post in both North and South?

We can't get members posting in the marketplace to read the default prompts and answer the questions to give us any location. Some don't even change the title to show what it is they might be selling. We can't consistently get posters to obey the bump rule (a lot of threads do get locked or deleted because of that, and yes, mods can see the oh-so-cute 'delete the 3 o'clock post and post again at 4 o'clock' schtick.)

Did you know that just the Handguns marketplace has had over 280 new posts Aug 27 through the first 2 hours of August 28?

Did you know that there are 20 listed volunteer unpaid moderators - listed at the bottom of a forum page - some of whom are retired, and most of the others (possibly excepting me) have lives outside of Calguns?

Did you know Calguns is running vBulletin Version 3.8.11? It's displayed at the very bottom of the forum pages. That's from 2016, and vBulletin says

vBulletin 3 End of Life

vBulletin 3 is end of life and will not be receiving future development. Warning: vBulletin 3.8.11 is not compatible with PHP 7.2.0 or higher.

There's no support for anything modifying this version; yes, a new version has been considered - keeping some features that exist in this modified instance of 3.8 is a holdup.

Latest vBulletin is 5.6.8.

At this point, I don't think Kestryll could even hire someone to make any significant changes to the forum software.

Me? I think some kind of application that talks to the Calguns database and enforces the rules before allowing a sale post is the closest to an answer we might get.

TL;DR?

1) The software is old and fragile

2) There will never be enough moderators to read and 'fix' - even if that were possible - badly formed sale posts

[-hanko]

Originally Posted by Librarian

Searching just on 'marketplace' this is the 22nd post in this thread since 2014 asking for a geographic split. Popular idea.

Now, here's what a member posting in the marketplace forums gets:

Note that 'location' reminders are in both the title and the content.

There are 7 main Marketplace forums. A simple split into North/South would give us 14, not 7.

Where, exactly, is the dividing line between North and South? How do we get members to agree? What do we do about members who post in both North and South?

We can't get members posting in the marketplace to read the default prompts and answer the questions to give us any location. Some don't even change the title to show what it is they might be selling. We can't consistently get posters to obey the bump rule (a lot of threads do get locked or deleted because of that, and yes, mods can see the oh-so-cute 'delete the 3 o'clock post and post again at 4 o'clock' schtick.)

Did you know that just the Handguns marketplace has had over 280 new posts Aug 27 through the first 2 hours of August 28?

Did you know that there are 20 listed volunteer unpaid moderators - listed at the bottom of a forum page - some of whom are retired, and most of the others (possibly excepting me) have lives outside of Calguns?

Did you know Calguns is running vBulletin Version 3.8.11? It's displayed at the very bottom of the forum pages. That's from 2016, and vBulletin says There's no support for anything modifying this version; yes, a new version has been considered - keeping some features that exist in this modified instance of 3.8 is a holdup.

Latest vBulletin is 5.6.8.

At this point, I don't think Kestryll could even hire someone to make any significant changes to the forum software.

Me? I think some kind of application that talks to the Calguns database and enforces the rules before allowing a sale post is the closest to an answer we might get.

TL;DR?

1) The software is old and fragile

2) There will never be enough moderators to read and 'fix' - even if that were possible - badly formed sale posts

Outstanding...

Any way to make that required reading before anyone opens the Marketplace?

[Dirtlaw]

Could we have an older guys activity / events forum???

[triple-tap]

Make a "What I Pay in Cash NRA Condition" Form mandatory in every WTB and WTT that also accepts cash but doesn't list price, for every WTB WTT (and WTS too) post.

WTB just like a WTS must have prices for every NRA condition mandatory for at least the gun itself without mag and originally factory supplied NIB content, so we're not jerked around.

This simple rule will reduce many scam fishing posts by shills looking for inventory or to low ball unsuspecting folks. It saves time because you instantly know if it's a shill fishing to low ball folks or if you are living in the same dimension of reality, etc.

Why waste time with someone who wants to buy your OOP off-roster for less than the CA Premium. Premiums are based on rarity in CA and other factors, at least twice the price for common items, not the hidden "market" demand.

What was the MSRP for a NIB Glock with sales tax? Right or wrong, the CA Premium is generally asking twice that for common items.

Have the WTB guy fill out the prices for every condition, so you know in advance what the other guy is going to pay you, if he tries to low ball you on condition once you are at the PPT.

If you don't like the prices he pays, it's over. These WTB guys should get one chance to fill the form. This is not an auction where they start low. This will force the WTB guys to give you their best prices and it weeds out the low ballers and seeking cheap store inventory shills.

By filling out the form in advance, the WTB guy has agreed in advance to pay you for every NRA condition w/o mag and other original NIB supplied content, so he is obligated to buy or get negative feedback and lose his advance deposit you collected, FFL scheduling fees, etc.

Let's try this rule for 6+ months on the WTB section for firearms and see how many serious real posters there are

The price a WTB guy will pay should be public in his post, just like the price for the WTS guy is public.

We must also target the WTT guys who want to circumvent the list a price rule with a fake WTT. CASH means CASH or take Swiss Gold 99.99999% , no fake paper checks when banks are known to stop services, banking holiday, WAR, etc.


"What I Pay In CASH Condition" Form

NRA MODERN GUN CONDITION STANDARDS:
WTB ________________ w/o all original NIB supplied content
NEW: N/A Bought Retail New / NIB
PERFECT: $________________
EXCELLENT: $________________
VERY GOOD: $________________
GOOD 1: $________________
GOOD 2: $________________
PARTS or REPAIR: $________________

In body of WTB listing.

All WTB Firearms should include at least one "w/o all original NIB supplied content" form as mandatory, because it is unlikely everyone has complete NIB guns with all original factory supplied content in CA.

A WTB 9mm HK SP89 w/o all original NIB supplied content is just for the complete gun itself with lower and no mag and any additional original content supplied by the factory when it originally sold NIB.



A "w/ all original NIB supplied content" and any additional forms with accessories, etc., can be posted below the first w/o mandatory price paid form.



w/o original mag, original box, manual, papers, target
w/ original mag B blocked or N/B not blocked S/C Standard Capacity
w/ original box
w/ original manual
w/ original papers
w/ accessories included: list each with a separate "What I Pay In CASH NRA Condition" Form


EXAMPLE/SAMPLE

"What I Pay In CASH NRA Condition" Form

WTB 9mm HK SP89

NRA MODERN GUN CONDITION STANDARDS:
WTB 9mm HK SP89 W/O all original NIB supplied content[/B]
NEW: N/A Bought Retail New / NIB
PERFECT: $ 13,000
EXCELLENT: $ 12,000
VERY GOOD: $ 11,000
GOOD 1: $ 10,000
GOOD 2: $ 9,000
PARTS or REPAIR: $ 8,000


NRA MODERN GUN CONDITION STANDARDS:
WTB 9mm HK SP89 W/ all original NIB supplied content
NEW: N/A Bought Retail New / NIB
PERFECT: $ 15,000
EXCELLENT: $ 14,000
VERY GOOD: $ 13,000
GOOD 1: $ 12,000
GOOD 2: 11,000
PARTS or REPAIR: $ 10,000


Some WTB being sought may or may not come with original NIB items, so a provision must be made to also include these options


W/O original mag, original box, manual, papers, target...
W/ original mag, original box, manual, papers, target...
w/ original mag B blocked or N/B not blocked S/C
W/ original outer cardboard box
w/ original foam box
W/ original manual
W/ original papers
w/ original plastic bag
w/ original corrosion inhibitor brown paper
w/ accessories included: list each accessory (HK claw scope mount, etc.) with a separate "What I Pay Condition" Form


This will be a more detailed version of like looking through the old GL and SGN, seeing the advertisements by the big-name dealers saying, "We Buy Em Too" and what they pay based on condition: HK91 MINT $1099, HK91 99% $999, FNC Paratrooper MINT $839, FN 50.00 Match MINT $1499, etc.

Now when they get your guns in, they low ball the condition, play games and you have to pay return shipping as a loss, maybe lose items if you don't accept their strong arm tactics.

This is why we want to make it mandatory that each NRA condition has a price just for just the gun itself, without mag and original NIB supplied content. If you want a gun the with original NIB supplied content, etc., list additional forms in the body of your WTB below the first mandatory form.



I believe NRA NEW is ethically N/A in any of the guns because the WTB guy is not the original purchaser.

NRA MODERN GUN CONDITION STANDARDS:

NEW: Not previously sold at retail, in same condition as current factory production.

PERFECT: In New condition in every respect. (Many collectors & dealers use "As New" to describe this condition).

EXCELLENT: New condition, used but little, no noticeable marring of wood or metal, bluing perfect, (except at muzzle or sharp edges).

VERY GOOD: In perfect working condition, no appreciable wear on working surfaces, no corrosion or pitting, only minor surface dents or scratches.

GOOD 1: In safe working condition, minor wear on working surfaces, no broken parts, no corrosion or pitting that will interfere with proper functioning.

GOOD 2: In safe working condition but well worn, perhaps requiring replacement of minor parts or adjustments which should be indicated in advertisement, no rust, but may have corrosion pits which do not render article unsafe or inoperable.

PARTS or REPAIR - These guns are broken or missing parts, and need to be repaired and checked by a gunsmith before using, however they are not necessarily in worn condition, and though not-functioning, they may sometimes be in very nice condition.


The next trick is, I don't want to list a price in WTS so I'll post a WTT for an obscure item or something I want to buy, without a price so I can low ball them.


Excuse any typos, copy and post errors, etc.,I'm in a hurry

[mk2dave]

It seems like every day, or possibly every other day, someone posts County specific questions in the Carry Concealed Discussions.

I feel like this may be due to that forum being called "Calguns Concealed Carry County Information Forum", which I have trouble identifying as the County resource even when I'm looking for it.

If it was called "County Specific CCW Info" or something else that was obvious, maybe it wouldn't happen so often?

May be it only bothers me, IDK.

[The Gleam]

Let's ban all the tere hanges going on in this thread.

Everything except Librarian's contribution.

That'll be a good start.

--

[-hanko]

Originally Posted by triple-tap

Make a "What I Pay in Cash NRA Condition" Form mandatory in every WTB and WTT that also accepts cash but doesn't list price, for every WTB WTT (and WTS too) post.

Excuse any typos, copy and post errors, etc.,I'm in a hurry

98% edited for brevity...

What you proposed is waaaay beyond any sense of reasonability.

Take a look at the Equipment Exchange on arf and tell us what you think.

[bcoc2002]

You're right as far as a split, it would have to be a north, central, and a south, which would be way to much. Just for Sh*ts and Giggles, southern cal is the southern border to santa barbara. Central carries on up to San Fran. North from there to the Oregon border.

[Big Chudungus]

Make a new Body(and Head) armor forum with diff sections for:

EDC concealed
Tacticool exposed
Soft/Hard
DIY
coverage for areas besides upper chest and skull
bullet resistant for cars and other non-wear applications, as well as backpacks, clipboards, chairs, etc.

Right now you got one massive thread in Survival for all Body Armor issues, so its very hard to find responses. More to that point, consider a complete revamp is this site to a system as used by 4Chan, where its indicated which post is being responded to two going both ways.

[Xplosiv3]

How about updating the forum software to XenForo like every other forum on the internet where users can upload photos directly, drag and drop photos from their desktop to their post, resize them, get notifications, be able to like someone else's post, etc. And most importantly, DELETE THEIR OWN THREADS. It's kind of creepy how we aren't allowed to delete our own posts, even if it comes at the cost of deleting other's posts whom replied to the thread.

And if necessary, charge people $5 for a lifetime membership and an extra $5 to become a premium member and access the marketplace and be able to post or view threads there. That would get rid of most of the overseas scammers and lurker lowballers that aren't serious about doing business here.

Any serious member would have no problem paying a small fee to use this forum. As long as it's not a monthly fee.

VBulletin software doesn't make this forum a very ad/partnership friendly forum for 2A related sponsors.

[JC Smith]

Originally Posted by Xplosiv3

How about updating the forum software to XenForo like every other forum on the internet where users can upload photos directly, drag and drop photos from their desktop to their post, resize them, get notifications, be able to like someone else's post, etc. And most importantly, DELETE THEIR OWN THREADS. It's kind of creepy how we aren't allowed to delete our own posts, even if it comes at the cost of deleting other's posts whom replied to the thread.

And if necessary, charge people $5 for a lifetime membership and an extra $5 to become a premium member and access the marketplace and be able to post or view threads there. That would get rid of most of the overseas scammers and lurker lowballers that aren't serious about doing business here.

VBulletin software doesn't make this forum a very ad/partnership friendly forum for 2A related sponsors.

EXCELLENT IDEA!!

[-hanko]

Originally Posted by Xplosiv3

And if necessary, charge people $5 for a lifetime membership and an extra $5 to become a premium member and access the marketplace and be able to post or view threads there. That would get rid of most of the overseas scammers and lurker lowballers that aren't serious about doing business here.

Any serious member would have no problem paying a small fee to use this forum. As long as it's not a monthly fee.

VBulletin software doesn't make this forum a very ad/partnership friendly forum for 2A related sponsors.

It seems to be at least friendly enough that there's no charge whatsoever for using the Marketplace.

What would help Calguns.net is to politely ask those who use the Marketplace to become contributors.

What's stopping you??

[Xplosiv3]

Originally Posted by -hanko

It seems to be at least friendly enough that there's no charge whatsoever for using the Marketplace.

What would help Calguns.net is to politely ask those who use the Marketplace to become contributors.

What's stopping you??

I would be happy to if they modernized a little bit. And I'm sure buyers and sellers would have no problem paying a small fee to deal with other truly serious people.

Beggars can't be choosy but this thread exists for a reason so I gave my two cents.

[-hanko]

...the so-called upgrade to the program that runs Calguns.net, I was advised it was "in the works".

I was later advised that a complete upgrade couldn't happen because Marketplace info would be gone and we'd have to start from scratch...just as we did when the forum opened originally. Not to mention that we're still using GeoVario as our host, even after the owner, Ben Canon, has some serious mental issues happening.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by -hanko

...the so-called upgrade to the program that runs Calguns.net, I was advised it was "in the works".

That seems to have been true in August of 2018 - http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...postcount=1048

[SilveradoColt21]

Originally Posted by -hanko

What would help Calguns.net is to politely ask those who use the Marketplace to become contributors.

I would say instead of politely asking that instead it be a requirement in the first place, that would certainly help in weeding out the scammers.

[-hanko]

Originally Posted by Librarian

That seems to have been true in August of 2018 - http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...postcount=1048

Is the hold-up because Marketplace history will disappear?

If so, we can all pretend that we're back where Marketplace history began.

It's a bummer indeed that the Marketplace runs what we call in "The Home of the California Firearms Owner's Resistance".

Seems to be it might be easier simply to turn Calguns.net into a monster "guns for sale" board.

[sghart]

You guys could answer me back when I go to the administrators for help.

[CheapBloke]

I think the move might be happening not too long from now. My observation to this is I noticed increased amount of people putting multiple threads for multiple items in the marketplace, and these are not "new" users. If this move to this xenforo? wipes the marketplace, maybe some got the memo.

I'm going to attempt to put multiple threads out for items, maybe get more traction instead of making a wall-of-text on 1 page.

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