Open Letter - how can we make Calguns.net better?

[Coffee]

Originally Posted by artherd

Great! Busy deploying new equipment, rest of the team is busy taking in new customers. GV has some very exciting projects in the works, that I can't reveal anything else about just yet How about with you?

Ok I guess. Little disappointed that the thread marking system wasn't given more of a chance, but as you say "can't please everybody". The site speed was truly impressive while that was on which is an awesome feat.

At some point might need to talk to you about hosting, but not at this exact moment.

Originally Posted by artherd

Tell me more about this - is this a vB enhancement you've seen elsewhere? This one I had to do manually!

vBulletin Options -> vBulletin Options -> Message Posting and Editing Options
Multi-Quote Enabled = Yes.

(if you want to turn it on).

[Glock30]

^ Nice!!

[artherd]

Originally Posted by Coffee

Ok I guess. Little disappointed that the thread marking system wasn't given more of a chance, but as you say "can't please everybody".

Yeah, I am too. (not my call, this isn't my house!) Wish this was user-selectable, we have the horsepower to drive it.

At some point might need to talk to you about hosting, but not at this exact moment.

We're not going anywhere!

vBulletin Options -> vBulletin Options -> Message Posting and Editing Options
Multi-Quote Enabled = Yes.

(if you want to turn it on).

Groovy! Let's see how this one goes, I see no downside so it's on for now.

Edit: hrm, not sure it's actually working, try it out guys and let me know.

[Moonclip]

I'd be happy if a mod could fix my sig line to be more inline and neat, I gave up

[artherd]

delete the commas, and try size=-4

[Coffee]

Originally Posted by artherd

Groovy! Let's see how this one goes, I see no downside so it's on for now.

Edit: hrm, not sure it's actually working, try it out guys and let me know.

Does not look like it is working to me.

vBulletin Options -> vBulletin Options -> Message Posting and Editing Options
Multi-Quote Quote Limit = ???, mine is set to 0 for infinite posts quoted, maybe you have it set to 1 which disables it? Dunno.


.

[leelaw]

Originally Posted by Dartagnan

TRY OFFICAL WARNINGS OF UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR BEFORE BANNING MEMBERS, WITHOUT POSSIBLE RE-INSTATEMENT. WRITTEN WARNINGS GENERALLY HIT THE MARK AND WILL ALMOST ALWAYS BE SUFFICENT PENALTY, RATHER THAN THE EXTREME,LIKE EXILE OR BANNISHMENT. ITS ONE THING IF A PERSON CONTINUES AFTER WRITTEN WARNINGS. THERE SHOULD BE DUE PROCESS TO EXILE,.

There are two types of permabanned members:

1. Scammers (spam bots, and the like)
2. Those who have had many, many warnings, and temp-bans in the past.

Those who are in category #2, yet have not been permabanned, have generally (99%) been talked to beforehand, and they ignore warnings. Some, however, step so far over the line they get their "talking-to" in the form of a "You are temporarily banned. You have been temp banned for XYZ" admonishment when they try to log on next.

[Moonclip]

Originally Posted by artherd

delete the commas, and try size=-4

Thanks, it seems better now.

[r08ert209cali]

A watch this thread feature might be nice.

[Brooke]

A *mobile* version. Seriously. :-)

[N6ATF]

Originally Posted by r08ert209cali

A watch this thread feature might be nice.

Thread tools>Subscribe to this thread

[Shotgun Man]

How about a lite version that is mostly text like they have at ar15.com? Some times you don't want "CALGUNS.NET" and images of AK-47s, etc. prominently displayed on your screen.

Also, some news sites allow the reader to switch to a larger font size. Could such a feature be implemented here?

I would do nothing to change the overall color scheme as I believe it currently promotes readability.

[Patriot]

Originally Posted by Shotgun Man

How about a lite version that is mostly text like they have at ar15.com? Some times you don't want "CALGUNS.NET" and images of AK-47s, etc. prominently displayed on your screen.

Also, some news sites allow the reader to switch to a larger font size. Could such a feature be implemented here?

I would do nothing to change the overall color scheme as I believe it currently promotes readability.

I typically adjust text size from within the browser:

CTRL + +

or

CTRL + -

for Internet Explorer or Firefox.

[hoffmang]

I'd like to have the calguns foundation wiki share the same authentication database as CGN. That way everyone here can edit the wiki, and anyone banned here or there would not be able to edit the wiki.

We could cut down on the stickys some that way and use threads to debate wiki edits about the finer points of C&R law or AW law for example.

-Gene

[Shotgun Man]

Originally Posted by Patriot

I typically adjust text size from within the browser:

CTRL + +

or

CTRL + -

for Internet Explorer or Firefox.

Pretty good. I remember now I forgot that.

[Glock30]

Wahooo for multi quote!!

[Moonclip]

Originally Posted by Shotgun Man

How about a lite version that is mostly text like they have at ar15.com? Some times you don't want "CALGUNS.NET" and images of AK-47s, etc. prominently displayed on your screen.

Also, some news sites allow the reader to switch to a larger font size. Could such a feature be implemented here?

I would do nothing to change the overall color scheme as I believe it currently promotes readability.

I just did this at an LA county courthouse jury room, F them They blocked gunboards.com there though on their computers, lame. calguns.org and .net ok though there for now

[Coffee]

I've noticed that visitor messages have been enabled for some people.

Took a quick peek at the first 10 peoples profiles that have posted to this thread and they have visitor messages. I've enabled visitor messages in my User CP options but I do not appear to have visitor messages.

2 questions
why don't I have visitor messages?
what is the long term plan on visitor messages?

This site moves fast and I'd like to post links in the visitor message area to threads of interest on this site, but if the visitor message feature is disabled in the future I'll continue to find other ways of keeping track of them.

.

[sorensen440]

Originally Posted by Coffee

I've noticed that visitor messages have been enabled for some people.

Took a quick peek at the first 10 peoples profiles that have posted to this thread and they have visitor messages. I've enabled visitor messages in my User CP options but I do not appear to have visitor messages.

2 questions
why don't I have visitor messages?
what is the long term plan on visitor messages?

This site moves fast and I'd like to post links in the visitor message area to threads of interest on this site, but if the visitor message feature is disabled in the future I'll continue to find other ways of keeping track of them.

.

you have 1 visitor message

[Coffee]

Originally Posted by sorensen440

you have 1 visitor message

Yes I do! Thanks.

I can see your visitor messages, you have none at this time, can you see the visitor message section in your profile?




It appears things are set up so people cannot post to their own visitor message areas.

[sorensen440]

Originally Posted by Coffee

Yes I do! Thanks.

I can see your visitor messages, you have none at this time, can you see the visitor message section in your profile?




It appears things are set up so people cannot post to their own visitor message areas.

Yes I can see it in my profile
I had however deleted a visitor message that somone had left back in august and it shows that I deleted it

[Coffee]

Originally Posted by sorensen440

Yes I can see it in my profile
I had however deleted a visitor message that somone had left back in august and it shows that I deleted it

Hmmmm.

My guess would be that before that before you received the message you deleted the "Visitor message" tab in your profile was missing.


Thanks!

[pacrimguru]

to make this forum better, i suggest allowing searches of 2 characters or more plus allowing more than 6 pictures per post.

every time i look to search terms like 9mm, .45, hk, or h&k for that matter, the search comes up with nothing.

[Black Majik]

While this is still my home board, something I feel is a big detriment is the inability to search 3 character words/acronyms.

It seems all my searches are 3 characters long: 686, 700, GGI, 547, VSF, 9mm, USP, 220, 223, 226, 308, SIG, PSS, GAP, ACP, as well as smith revolver variants such as 19-s, 66-3, which help a lot in the classifieds.

I'm almost ashamed to admit it, but I go to the ".org" to do my THR searches.

[Vectrexer]

Originally Posted by Vectrexer

Establish a California Firearms auctions board to suck away business from Gun Broker. Income for CG and Kali gun friendly at the same time. Plus GB's forum management is a joke.

Originally Posted by sorensen440

I really like this idea if it is doable

In addition to a GeoVario hosted auction board I would also like to see one of the following:

1) Permanent partnering with a site like www.Yelp.com for CalGuns.net partnered reviews of guns, manufacturers , and external sites.
and/or
2) GeoVario hosted review site similar to www.Yelp.com for reviews of guns, manufacturers , and external sites.

This was we would not lose the old articles reviewing and evaluating the topic while still being able to add new articles and reviews.

If there were made and hosted by GeoVario then we really could keep a permanent list of Kali-friendly dealers, but at the same time not have it be a distraction. Would also be nice to have a fields to list the FFL03-Friendly and gray-area dealers as well. While I have not bought a gray-area firearm I can see where others might appreciate the ability to list dealers by this attribute.

[Vectrexer]

Originally Posted by pacrimguru

to make this forum better, i suggest allowing searches of 2 characters or more plus allowing more than 6 pictures per post.

I like the idea of more than 6 pictures per post. Especially when the pictures being posted are using bandwidth and resources of another server are hosted off the Calguns.net site.

I recently posted a series of pictures and had to make more than one message to get them all posted.

[WINGEDSWORD]

How about establishing a blackpowder forum, on the site.

[Coffee]

Put the vendor forums in some kind of order? Alphabetical?

Or just say what the order is? I can't figure it out.

[monkezuncle]

If I may I have 2 suggestions. 1 is a rating system for both posts and members as I have seen on other forums. That way useless threads can be buried and the comments of low quality posters can be ignored. In other forums, people start out neutral. 5.0 and then gain "reputation" based on the quality of their posts, as measured by other members. That was all the "bump" posts don't really matter, it's the quality of the post, not the quantity. The same can be applied to posters so that threads that low quality posters start do not automatically jump to the top.

Also, there has been a lot of autocratic censoring going on lately. I myself have experienced it. So long as the discourse is civil, respectful and logical, it needs to be allowed. Anything less is a mockery of the only amendment that is above the 2nd. If you get my drift. Just cause the mods don't "like" a post that is not sufficient reason to remove it.

Certainly I am not advocating complete free-for-all by any means but there should be a free open exchange of ideas and dialog. I personally enjoy it when someone points out where my posts were incorrect, it helps me learn. If I am asking too much for something I'm selling, I'd like people to tell me. If I made an error on a major point, I'd like to have that corrected for the sake of others. I mean if your fly was down, you'd want someone to point it out... right?

But lately there seems to be little tolerance for that, in fact I have seen 3 acceptable posts get axed in just the last 3 threads I viewed. I myself just got censored 15 mins earlier. Not merely "edited" but all traces of my post and the posts I was quoting completely removed from the system yet the rest of the thread was untouched. It was a very respectful and logical post but apparently was not liked so it got killed. That's not cool.

Other then that, really loving Calguns... glad I found it. -MonkezUncle

[Kestryll]

Originally Posted by monkezuncle

If I may I have 2 suggestions. 1 is a rating system for both posts and members as I have seen on other forums. That way useless threads can be buried and the comments of low quality posters can be ignored. In other forums, people start out neutral. 5.0 and then gain "reputation" based on the quality of their posts, as measured by other members. That was all the "bump" posts don't really matter, it's the quality of the post, not the quantity. The same can be applied to posters so that threads that low quality posters start do not automatically jump to the top.
The Reputation system has been turned off as it too easily leads to misuse. How often have we seen someone or some shop vilified and condemned by a mob based on an emotional charge that later proves to be inaccurate? Once the other side of the story comes out there is backpedaling aplenty.
The Marketplace is designed to be a totally free market, we do not control the pricing of anyone's sale. What we do control is the level of discourse. Thread crapping, uncivil behavior or undercutting someone's ad are not allowed.


Also, there has been a lot of autocratic censoring going on lately. I myself have experienced it.
All moderation is autocratic, this is a privately owned forum with a specific set of rules.
So long as the discourse is civil, respectful and logical, it needs to be allowed.
In general it is, with certain exceptions such as the Marketplace forums.
There are specific rules designed to make sales and purchases possible.

Anything less is a mockery of the only amendment that is above the 2nd. If you get my drift.
As stated above, this is a privately owned and operated website as such the 1st Amendment does not apply here. It sounds bad to say but it is the reality of all private websites.
Just cause the mods don't "like" a post that is not sufficient reason to remove it.
Posts are moved or removed because they violate a rule not because of personal preference.

Certainly I am not advocating complete free-for-all by any means but there should be a free open exchange of ideas and dialog. I personally enjoy it when someone points out where my posts were incorrect, it helps me learn. If I am asking too much for something I'm selling, I'd like people to tell me.
That is what PMs are for and that is the required method of going about saying the price seems to high. Of course the seller is free to ignore your advice as well.
If I made an error on a major point, I'd like to have that corrected for the sake of others. I mean if your fly was down, you'd want someone to point it out... right?

But lately there seems to be little tolerance for that, in fact I have seen 3 acceptable posts get axed in just the last 3 threads I viewed. I myself just got censored 15 mins earlier. Not merely "edited" but all traces of my post and the posts I was quoting completely removed from the system yet the rest of the thread was untouched. It was a very respectful and logical post but apparently was not liked so it got killed. That's not cool.
No, as was said in the PM someone else's For Sale ad is NOT the venue to voice your displeasure with the 'No Thread Crapping' rule.
It is rude and disrespectful to the person who posted the thread.
That is why those posts and yours were removed.

Other then that, really loving Calguns... glad I found it. -MonkezUncle

...

[monkezuncle]

For the record, I posted this suggestion before we PM'd. However, give that you have responded to it here let me also do that.

Originally Posted by Kestryll

The Marketplace is designed to be a totally free market, we do not control the pricing of anyone's sale. What we do control is the level of discourse. Thread crapping, uncivil behavior or undercutting someone's ad are not allowed.

Honest calrification... so it's ok to use a thread in the marketplace to blatantly and publicly rip someone off but its not ok to use that same thread to call them on it?

If the goal is the betterment of the forum and its members, that defies any test of logic I know.

And in fairness to me, the post that began this discussion, was addressing the ongoing discussion, within the thread, of the 2 people that had been censored for commenting on the price... I was not discussing the price itself.

As to the 1st amendment arguments you are making, with respect, you are wrong. Pls see my PM about private, public, semi-private and semi-public forums. Granted I have not WestLaw'd the issue in a few years but unless something drastically changed, the courts do and have extended 1st amendment protections to "forum" related activities in real life. If Calguns were a physically meeting of gun enthusiasts, you could not turn my mike off. Especially not after I had been given permission to speak (i.e. approved for posting). That's the physical equivalent of what you did virtually. I have no idea if there has been a 1st amendment challenge in regard to websites (nor am I advocating or threating one, obviously) but I think you're a bit high handed and misinformed in your argument.

I really wish you would post the substance of my post here so that others can see what we are talking about. I think they would agree, especially in context of the thread and the other comments being made, that it was civil, appropriate, within the rules, and more importantly, for the benefit of the membership as a whole.

Also, I want to address the "totally free market" concept you espoused as both a defense and a rational for such a laissez faire attitude. There is no such thing. Not on Calguns, not in real life. I can not, for example, post an add for a toaster under "firearms". That would, rightly, be removed. But under a free market economy it would be allowed. I can not post an add for an illegal act, which under true free market economy would be fair game. So there is regulation... it is NOT a free market. Therefore if there there is some regulation, all I am suggesting is an ability to members to identify and avoid "professional predators". Those gun sellers who are notorious unscrupulous, unfair, unethical or are engaging in ridiculous price gouging. I'm surprised to find that my suggestion of it, as a response to an open letter asking how improve Calguns, received such a strong reply.

With respect, you can't have it both ways. Either hands off or hands on... not one and one. If it's a free market w/o regulation then you can't make rules. If it is not a free market then it is permissible to put some rules in place to protect members. Now if you would prefer not to do that and the membership agrees then hey... that's democracy. But you can't have a membership of so many thousand people ruled autocratically. And for the record, when I signed up for the forum I agreed to live by the forum rules, not the haphazard interpretation of them by one person. That doesn't work well for anyone, in real or virtual life. The power to completely delete the record of a post is an extreme one that needs to be applied extremely carefully. I am seeing increasing evidence of it and it worries me.

Pls know my preference would have been to have this discussion by PM. I respect everything you do here and incredibly grateful for calguns but I genuinely have a hard time seeing how you're in the right on this issue and I strongly object to posts about censorship being censored.

I was perfectly willing to let this drop as a one time issue... but if you're saying that this is representative of how this community is/should be run I have to object, simply for the sake of fairness if nothing else.

[artherd]

Originally Posted by monkezuncle

Honest calrification... so it's ok to use a thread in the marketplace to blatantly and publicly rip someone off but its not ok to use that same thread to call them on it?

yes.

[40caldeserteagle]

Originally Posted by monkezuncle

Trimmed.

So if I let you into my house, I cannot tell you to shut up and leave ? That is basically what this forum is, we are just guests here. I'm sure Kestryll would agree.

David F.

[Kestryll]

Originally Posted by monkezuncle

For the record, I posted this suggestion before we PM'd. However, give that you have responded to it here let me also do that.

Honest clarification... so it's ok to use a thread in the marketplace to blatantly and publicly rip someone off but its not ok to use that same thread to call them on it?
In essence, yes. Although I think your wording is a bit inflammatory. They can use the Marketplace to post an item for sale at whatever price they choose, it's not ripping someone off, it's offering an item for sale.
No one forces anyone to buy an item, if the price is too high then people won't buy the item. If someone chooses to buy it, then they are an adult and capable of making their own decision and living with it.


If the goal is the betterment of the forum and its members, that defies any test of logic I know.
The term is 'Caveat Emptor', 'Let the buyer beware'. As to how it applies to the betterment of the forum and it's members, it treats them as adults, responsible for the decisions they make and the consequences that go with those decisions.

And in fairness to me, the post that began this discussion, was addressing the ongoing discussion, within the thread, of the 2 people that had been censored for commenting on the price... I was not discussing the price itself.
Frankly, unless the subject is a direct question about the item, posting in someone else's For Sale thread about ANYTHING is just flat rude.
As for being 'censored', it's called 'application of the rules'. In each Marketplace forum is a stickied post with the rules spelled out. In the Commercial Sale forum it can be found here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=50199
In reference to this discussion the pertinent rules would be both rules 2 and 4:
2) Buyers and Sellers assume any and all risks in any transaction. Our wish is for this forum to be a safe environment for our members to buy and sell amongst themselves; however, Calguns.net can not and will not be responsible for any transactions gone bad. CAVEAT EMPTOR applies here.

4) Commenting on a post in a negative manner, called 'thread-crapping', is not allowed. If you think an item is overpriced or of lesser quality, don't buy it. If you have concerns about the seller PM a Mod or Admin and we can discuss the matter.


As to the 1st amendment arguments you are making, with respect, you are wrong. Pls see my PM about private, public, semi-private and semi-public forums. Granted I have not WestLaw'd the issue in a few years but unless something drastically changed, the courts do and have extended 1st amendment protections to "forum" related activities in real life. If Calguns were a physically meeting of gun enthusiasts, you could not turn my mike off. Especially not after I had been given permission to speak (i.e. approved for posting). That's the physical equivalent of what you did virtually. I have no idea if there has been a 1st amendment challenge in regard to websites (nor am I advocating or threating one, obviously) but I think you're a bit high handed and misinformed in your argument.
The problem is that you are confusing a public forum in physical context with a private one on line.
In context of the First Amendment this is NOT a public venue nor even semi-public, it is solely owned and private and if you need to equate it to a real world scenario this would be my living room, not a public hall. As per all the rules, including those you agreed to when you signed up, your posting and 'speech' are on a 'by permission' basis. In fact this is directly out of the User Agreement required to join the forum:
e)Calguns.net reserves the right at our discretion to lock or delete posts and ban members. At most you will get one chance.
You are mistaken in your application of the 1st Amendment as it relates to a private on line forum.


I really wish you would post the substance of my post here so that others can see what we are talking about. I think they would agree, especially in context of the thread and the other comments being made, that it was civil, appropriate, within the rules, and more importantly, for the benefit of the membership as a whole.
Just a quick point, I told you via PM that the issue was not your post but it's location that was a violation of the rules and you just needed to ask and let me know where, in an appropriate venue, you wanted it moved.


Also, I want to address the "totally free market" concept you espoused as both a defense and a rational for such a laissez faire attitude. There is no such thing. Not on Calguns, not in real life. I can not, for example, post an add for a toaster under "firearms". That would, rightly, be removed. But under a free market economy it would be allowed. I can not post an add for an illegal act, which under true free market economy would be fair game. So there is regulation... it is NOT a free market. Therefore if there there is some regulation, all I am suggesting is an ability to members to identify and avoid "professional predators". Those gun sellers who are notorious unscrupulous, unfair, unethical or are engaging in ridiculous price gouging. I'm surprised to find that my suggestion of it, as a response to an open letter asking how improve Calguns, received such a strong reply.
No matter how you dress it up, you are asking for thread crapping to be made allowable and it will never be, that is not open to debate.
Yes, we do have rules here, you will note that NONE of them are designed to regulate a seller's price.
There are rules in place to maintain legality, to maintain civility and to organize the forums in a manner that makes it easier for the members to find things.
Your toaster would be fine to sell in the Non-firearms forum, the rule does not prevent you from selling it just require appropriate filing of the ad.

With respect, you can't have it both ways. Either hands off or hands on... not one and one. If it's a free market w/o regulation then you can't make rules. If it is not a free market then it is permissible to put some rules in place to protect members. Now if you would prefer not to do that and the membership agrees then hey... that's democracy. But you can't have a membership of so many thousand people ruled autocratically.
Actually you can.
It has been the model for internet BBS' for the past decade or more.


And for the record, when I signed up for the forum I agreed to live by the forum rules, not the haphazard interpretation of them by one person.
The haphazard interpretation as you put it is the enforcement of the person who wrote the rules, pays for the forum, keeps it open and allows members to post here. If this is too distressing there is an easy answer, don't post. I don't mean to sound harsh but no one is required to read or post here and if the rules and their enforcement are that onerous I would ask why come back?

That doesn't work well for anyone, in real or virtual life. The power to completely delete the record of a post is an extreme one that needs to be applied extremely carefully. I am seeing increasing evidence of it and it worries me.
I would then advise you to open your own BBS and run it as you prefer, I will even help you pick out the software, find a server and set things up if you need the help.
If you are willing to give up the right to delete a post on your BBS that is a choice you get to make and a consequence you get to live with.

Pls know my preference would have been to have this discussion by PM. I respect everything you do here and incredibly grateful for calguns but I genuinely have a hard time seeing how you're in the right on this issue and I strongly object to posts about censorship being censored.
The point you continually ignore, the point I have said before as well, is that your post was not the issue, the venue was. You posted your views on deleting thread crapping in the middle of someone else's For Sale thread. As I have said, this is rude and a violation of the posted rules.
As for your concerns of censorship, there will always be 'censorship' as long as there are rules to be adhered to.

I was perfectly willing to let this drop as a one time issue... but if you're saying that this is representative of how this community is/should be run I have to object, simply for the sake of fairness if nothing else.

It is how this community is and has been run for quite some time, 5+ years at least, and how it shall continue to be run. You are of course free to object and like in this case I will address your points.

[xxdabroxx]

I would like color themes. I like dark colors, matches my desktop, at home of course.

[Moonclip]

Originally Posted by monkezuncle

Just cause the mods don't "like" a post that is not sufficient reason to remove it.

I agree with some of what you say but this statement the most. And Kestryll,do you fel it is rude to post positive comments in a sale thread? I don't thread crap but I will post postitive comments sometimes on items I find that are offered at non gouge prices or are unique items sometimes.

Is this ok or do you prefer only comments be made asking questions if you intend to buy?

[offrdmania]

I greatly enjoy using Calguns everyday. Other than the recent raffle, in order to contribute to the site you had to dig deep in order to find where to help out. I would like to see a contribution section, specifically contributing to keeping the site going. Set it up with levels of contribution. The lowest level, say $10 gets a badge under their user name that pops up like an permanent avatar saying "contributor". With each level getting a little better perk. 10, 20, 50, 100, 500. A few ideas could be, pay 500 and get one sticky post in the classifieds per month so that your WTS stays on the front page until it sells. Or maybe with a 100 donation you get access to bold or highlighted type on your headline. Whichever level you contribute you will also have access to the perks of the levels below it.
This would be a great way to keep money flowing in for upgrades and keeping the servers running strong but at the same time giving a calgunner reason to donate and take pride in a webpage that we all love to use everyday.

[JC Smith]

How about a section in the forums for air guns?

[sorensen440]

So how often are we going to see calguns news emails ?
Is it going to be on a as needed basis or become a regular weekly/monthly thing?

[Coffee]

Want to thank whoever (Ben?) put this up in the announcement/notice. Having a date alleviates much confusion:

Update 12-12-2008 4:56AM