Questions about loading .223 for the AR-15

[bigbossman]

I have an AR-15 that I'm working up loads for. It is a standard mach prepped service rifle configuration, and shoots commercial and milsurp without issue.

I have some Reloder RL-7 and 10x, and while I've been able to work up accurate loads with both powders, neither one will cycle the action reliably to pick up the next round from the magazine. I'm using a 50gr Hornady V-MAX bullet, and have run the powder charges up to max or near max - 22.5gr for RL-7, and 24gr for RL-20x. Brass is FC, and has been resized in a RCBS SB sizing die and chambers easily and without binding in the rifle. Primers don't look too flat, but I'm reluctant to go past the maximum published charges. I have not chronographed any of the loads.

I'd like to use these powders for the rifle as they are supposed to be good for this caliber, but maybe only in bolt guns?. Any suggestions?

[golfish]

Darn things can be finicky...

Have you tried a lighter buffer ?

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by golfish

Darn things can be finicky...

Have you tried a lighter buffer ?

Expand on that please. I am unfamiliar with the mechanics of an AR-15. Is it sort of like changing the spring on a 1911?

[bohoki]

ive never used those powders ive only ever used win748,ramshot tac,hogdon varget and 23 grains behind 55 or 62 becuase 23 grains lets me make an even 300 rounds

does it work ok with factory ammo? are your bolt rings grooves lined up?

[golfish]

Originally Posted by bigbossman

Expand on that please. I am unfamiliar with the mechanics of an AR-15. Is it sort of like changing the spring on a 1911?

It's very easy, takes about 30 seconds...

Brownells has a video on changing buffers and buffer springs on YouTube. I'm not familiar with the powder your using but if you're finding data then it should be gtg. I'm sure you know that..

The weight on the buffer should be marked on the end..they're not very expensive.

Drilling out the gas port and using a adjustable gas block might be another option.

Good luck to you

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by bohoki

does it work ok with factory ammo? are your bolt rings grooves lined up?

Yes, as stated in the OP, commercial and milsurp work just fine.

Originally Posted by golfish

It's very easy, takes about 30 seconds...

Brownells has a video on changing buffers and buffer springs on YouTube. I'm not familiar with the powder your using but if you're finding data then it should be gtg. I'm sure you know that..

The weight on the buffer should be marked on the end..they're not very expensive.

I'm thinking you put me on the right track.

I bought this gun, used, from a competitor that was retiring from Highpower competition. Shot it a handful of times with factory ammo and Malaysian surplus, and it worked just fine. I just started reloading for it, and ran into this issue.

Now, you come along and talk about buffers and buffer springs.... I had no idea! So, I took the gun apart and took out the tube and spring (you're right, very easy). I could not find a number on the buffer tube........ BUT, I noticed that the tube rattled when I moved it around. So - I drove the pin out and removed the nylon end cap, and found a whole stack of cut steel round bar pieces inside.

I'm guessing that's not factory.

[bohoki]

are your empty cases sooty? compared to factory ammo?

if you want to use the rifle without any of the weights inside its fine the weights are just for reducing carrier bounce

[G38xOC]

I wonder how much all those buffer weights In at

[G38xOC]

I wonder how much all those buffer weights In at .

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by bohoki

are your empty cases sooty? compared to factory ammo?

if you want to use the rifle without any of the weights inside its fine the weights are just for reducing carrier bounce

No - no soot, everything looked good. If there is no danger of battering the rifle, I'll pull the weights out and try again.

Originally Posted by G38xOC

I wonder how much all those buffer weights In at

3.3 ounces.

[baih777]

What length are you loading to ?

[smoothy8500]

That looks like a standard buffer/weights for the A2 stock, don't know why it isn't working fine with near-max loads when it works well with factory 55gr.

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by smoothy8500

That looks like a standard buffer/weights for the A2 stock, don't know why it isn't working fine with near-max loads when it works well with factory 55gr.

Must be the powder then. H4895 loads seeded to cycle fine, just not as accurate.

[kcheung2]

I'm going to go the opposite, I think your buffer is too light. If I recall, carbine weight buffers are 3 oz, but the rifle length buffers start at 5 oz. So I think the previous owner lightened it. (and those weights are supposed to be there, except maybe that long one is the lighter filler piece) That it was a previous competition gun lends further credence to that.

Continuing with this theory, with your near-max charges and overly light buffer, your bcg is moving too fast such that there isn't enough time for the magazine spring to move the next round up before the bolt is closed again. But that's just a guess.

If your max charges aren't working, then maybe move closer to min or middle charges and try again?

[G-forceJunkie]

Originally Posted by bigbossman

I could not find a number on the buffer

Because people are talking about stuff they don't know about. Rifle length buffers come in one weight, with the rare exception of a low mass competition one made by JP and perhaps others. The "H1", "H2" etc buffers other have mentions are for carbine length buffer tubes, and they get heavier in weight as the number goes up.

tube........ BUT, I noticed that the tube rattled when I moved it around. So - I drove the pin out and removed the nylon end cap, and found a whole stack of cut steel round bar pieces inside.

I'm guessing that's not factory.

You guessed wrong.

It sounds like your loads are underpowered. What the velocity?

[rsrocket1]

Your loads definitely don't need more powder. I got reliable cycling with 55g fmjbt's with as little as 18.7g RL-7 in a 20" AR rifle with a standard rifle length gas system and rifle buffer.

Now that you know how to remove the buffer, why not experiment? Configure your buffer to 4.5 and 5 oz and shoot a few rounds at each weight to see if the feed improves.

IMO if the brass is ejecting properly but new rounds aren't feeding properly, your loads are generating enough gas to do its job, but the bolt/buffer may not have enough momentum or spring force to finish the job.

[ShaunBrady]

Originally Posted by bigbossman

Expand on that please. I am unfamiliar with the mechanics of an AR-15. Is it sort of like changing the spring on a 1911?

Everything you need to know about making an AR run. Check the things outlined here before you start changing things on the gun.

http://www.ar15barrels.com/prod/operation.shtml

What is similar to the 1911 is the slide, bolt carrier for the AR, has all the momentum it's going to have when the bullet leaves the barrel.

What is different is the bolt carrier momentum isn't a mirror of the bullets. You can adjust it through the gas system. Check to see if the gas block has an adjusting screw on it.

Larger charges of slower powders increase port pressure. Faster powders go the other way. Similarly, heavier bullets increase dwell time. Faster/slower and heavier/lighter being relative to what the gun was originally set up for.

Adding and subtracting buffer weight is another way to slow down or speed up the bolt carrier. It's easier to do so it's more discussed more often. It's a finer adjustment than what can be done with the gas block because even the heaviest buffer doesn't weigh what the bolt carrier does.

Assuming the gun ran for the previous owner, if you don't want to screw with the gun, the ammo will need to be loaded with powders and bullet weights reasonably near what it was originally set up for.

[Sailormilan2]

Have you checked your gas block? If you are shooting close to max loads, and it's not reliably ejecting, I would start first with the gas block. Especially if it has an adjustable gas block. Make sure that the as block is properly installed, and not angled. Which could block the gas port on the barrel.
If it is an adjustable gas block, you need to see how open, or closed it is. I would complete close the valve(there may be a small set screw locking the adjusting screw), and then open it about 1 1/2 turns. From a standing position, load and fire one round with the mag in the gun. See if it locks back. If it doesn't, open the adjusting screw up at least 1/4 turn, and repeat. Until the slide locks open on an empty chamber. Then, open the screw 1/4 turn more, and lock the set screw.

[Cheep]

If this gun shoots commercial ammo fine, you may have a problem with the scale you use and under charging the ammo. Have you checked the accuracy of your scale?

[tabascoz28]

I think this is a thing, commercial and military rounds are maximized. Sometimes cases will split after 1 or 2 firings they are so hot.

When I make my rounds with h335 and use almost max loadings it never matches the book when I chrono 10 feet+ away. I have an adjustable gas block and different buffer weights but my newer uppers always come overgassed anyway.

Also, most phones can record in slow motion now 240fps or 400.

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by Sailormilan2

Have you checked your gas block? If you are shooting close to max loads, and it's not reliably ejecting, I would start first with the gas block.

It extracts/ejects fine, but does not reliably strip off and chamber the next round or lock open on the last round. Commercially loaded and milsurp does. Also - H4895 seems to cycle just fine, but not as accurate as RL-7.

Originally Posted by Cheep

If this gun shoots commercial ammo fine, you may have a problem with the scale you use and under charging the ammo. Have you checked the accuracy of your scale?

Scale is fine. I use a PACT electronic, and spot check with a Lyman.

[golfish]

The gentleman above could be right on. Your BCG might be moving too fast and that could very well cause problems. I don't think I have an adjustable gas block on any of my ARs (maybe one of the AR308s)

Good luck

Please let us know what you find out.

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by golfish

The gentleman above could be right on. Your BCG might be moving too fast and that could very well cause problems. I don't think I have an adjustable gas block on any of my ARs (maybe one of the AR308s)

Good luck

Please let us know what you find out.

Will do. I'm going to try to take it out this weekend, but I have a lever gun match on Saturday and there's a big gun show in town this weekend. I might not make it to the rang for further testing.

[NapalmCheese]

I get it, you want to use what you have but... My best results have been Varget, BL(C)-2, and IMR8208BR with 77 SMKs, 75 BTHP, and 53 V-Max. All of these are in a 1:7 twist WOA SPR profile 18 inch Wylde chamber.

That barrel is starting to open up a bit so I picked up another one in 1:8 twist but haven't put it together yet.

Though the standard answer has been 24.0-24.5 Varget under a 77 SMK or 75 BTHP. I run 24.2 and 75 BTHP.

Run them over the chrono and see where you stand. Lots of data out there differentiates between .223 and 5.56, and if you have anything other than a .223 chamber you're possibly losing velocity at any given charge weight compared to data written specifically for .223 chambers because of the longer leade and jump in wylde/compass lake/5.56 chambers.

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by NapalmCheese

I get it, you want to use what you have but....

Yup. I have the previous owner's load data - without looking I think he was using N140 under a Sierra 69gr MK. I have a crap-ton of H4895, which works good as well. I was just trying to use up some RL-7 and RL-10x that I have laying around and have no other use for.

The upper on the rifle is a match upper but I don't know who made it.... Compass Lake type upper with heavy barrel, floating hand-guard, etc. No adjustable gas block though. Damn thing also has a Geissele 2 Stage trigger and NM sights, which is REALLY nice.

[Tommy Gun]

If you are fine loading slow 4895 is cool but man I'd hate to load 800+ rounds metering on a beam or auto scale. Unless you don't shoot a lot and only load 100 or so at a time.

I need a ball powder that meters like water.

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by Tommy Gun

If you are fine loading slow 4895 is cool but man I'd hate to load 800+ rounds metering on a beam or auto scale. Unless you don't shoot a lot and only load 100 or so at a time.

I need a ball powder that meters like water.

I only load a couple of hundred at any one time at most, and when I finally get a load I like I'll just use a RCBS Uniflo and load by volume. H4895 meters just fine.

[JagerDog]

Just put a lever on it and skip all this malarkey.

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by JagerDog

Just put a lever on it and skip all this malarkey.

WORD.

I went to the gun show today to see about buffers, buffer springs, and adjustable gas blocks, and ended up buying another H-Bar rifle for $600 cash and carry. What's wrong with me?

Anyway - did some more test loads yesterday (after winning both lever gun matches!!) and came to the conclusion that RL-7 is just not a good choice for my rifle for whatever reason, so I'm going to stop testing it. I ran charges up to the point of getting high pressure signs on the primers and it still would not reliably strip off a new round or lock back on empty. Ejects fine, just won't lock back.Conversely, mid-range loads with H4895 work fine, as do factory and milsurp. Not will in got screw with it anymore, just so I can burn up a partial container of RL-7.... too bad, too, because 19.5 grains was giving me 1 big ragged hole groups.

H4895 it is, for this rifle. I'm done with this newfangled crap, lever guns rule.

[NapalmCheese]

Originally Posted by bigbossman

H4895 it is, for this rifle. I'm done with this newfangled crap, lever guns rule.

Learn to love the "sproing" dude; then use the RL-7 in your .32-20.

[kcheung2]

Funny how a 60 year old design is considered newfangled.

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by kcheung2

Funny how a 60 year old design is considered newfangled.

In the context of 120 year old lever guns, it is.

[bigbossman]

OK - I got a chance to get back to the range today, and do some more testing. Looks like the match AR is good to go with H4895.

Interestingly enough, the second milspec AR I bought at the gun show functions just fine with the Reloder RL-7 loads that don't cycle properly in the match AR. It piles them up neatly at the 4 o'clock position, and locks back after the last round. My next step will be to pull the buffers and weigh everything to see if there is a difference..... or I could just swap buffers between the rifles and see what happens. Didn't think of that when I was there, D'oh.

Anyway - below my 100 yard target, open sights, with the match prepped AR and H4895. I'm going to go back to the range tomorrow and test the same load in my Savage Varminter bolt gun and if it prints well, I'm done.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by bigbossman

Expand on that please. I am unfamiliar with the mechanics of an AR-15. Is it sort of like changing the spring on a 1911?

Read this:
www.ar15barrels.com/prod/operation.shtml

Also, RL7 is a little too fast.
RL10 should be better but so would moving to an even slower powder which will increase your gas port pressure.
Look in the range of H335 to Accurate 2230 or even ramshot tac.

Failing that, are you using NEW pmags in a new upper/bolt/barrel?
If so, you will need some proper 5.56 ammo to break in the mags and the upper/bolt/barrel.
Switch to some used aluminum mags for a few hundred rounds until the upper frees up and then you can reintroduce new sticky pmags to it.
You can also try adding some dry graphite to the new stick pmags if you don't have used mags to break-in with.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by bigbossman

It extracts/ejects fine, but does not reliably strip off and chamber the next round or lock open on the last round. Commercially loaded and milsurp does. Also - H4895 seems to cycle just fine.

That's classic under-gassed condition.
Could be a small gas port, worn out or loose fit between the carrier and the bolt tail, broken/missing gas rings, leaky gas block/tube or misaligned barrel nut etc...

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by bigbossman

Anyway - did some more test loads yesterday (after winning both lever gun matches!!) and came to the conclusion that RL-7 is just not a good choice for my rifle for whatever reason, so I'm going to stop testing it. I ran charges up to the point of getting high pressure signs on the primers and it still would not reliably strip off a new round or lock back on empty. Ejects fine, just won't lock back.Conversely, mid-range loads with H4895 work fine, as do factory and milsurp. Not will in got screw with it anymore, just so I can burn up a partial container of RL-7.... too bad, too, because 19.5 grains was giving me 1 big ragged hole groups.

3 words: GAS PORT PRESSURE.

The slower powders produce more pressure at the gas port.
As I said above, RL7 is just too fast.

That's why you can max out RL7 and still not get it to cycle while midrange 4895 loads will run it just fine.

You perfectly proved what I just said above before I even read what you said here.

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Read this:
www.ar15barrels.com/prod/operation.shtml

Also, RL7 is a little too fast.
RL10 should be better but so would moving to an even slower powder which will increase your gas port pressure.

I ran 10x up to max with the same poor results.

Failing that, are you using NEW pmags in a new upper/bolt/barrel?
If so, you will need some proper 5.56 ammo to break in the mags and the upper/bolt/barrel.

The gun in question was bought from a retiring Highpower competitor, so the upper/bolt/barrel is not new. Also - all I have are USGI surplus magazines, mostly Colt.

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

3 words: GAS PORT PRESSURE.

The slower powders produce more pressure at the gas port.
As I said above, RL7 is just too fast.

That's why you can max out RL7 and still not get it to cycle while midrange 4895 loads will run it just fine.

Sounds reasonable. So - the fact that one AR will shoot the low end RL-7 load and the match prepped one won't could well be due to different gas port diameters?

In any case, I'm satisfied that H4895 or similar powder is the way to go. The previous owner was using N140 under a Sierra 69gn MK, which is right next to Varget on the burn chart and not too far off of H4895. Since I have about 20lbs of 4895 and only half a small tin of N140, I'm going to stick with 4895 for now.

I do have some RL-7 and RL-10x loads assembled for my varmint bolt gun, so I'll burn that powder up there if they prove out.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by bigbossman

Sounds reasonable. So - the fact that one AR will shoot the low end RL-7 load and the match prepped one won't could well be due to different gas port diameters?

Yes or no.
LOTS of other possible causes too.
The bolt could be a sloppy fit in the carrier and that will waste gas.
The barrel nut could be out of alignment and that will cause the gas tube to wear and waste gas.
The gas key could be leaking.
The front sight base could be leaking.

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Yes or no.
LOTS of other possible causes too.
The bolt could be a sloppy fit in the carrier and that will waste gas.
The barrel nut could be out of alignment and that will cause the gas tube to wear and waste gas.
The gas key could be leaking.
The front sight base could be leaking.

OK, thanks for the list. In order:

The bolt had a lot of carbon on the front half, so not sure if that's normal.

Have not checked the barrel nut yet.

The gas key hex head bolts are tight and staked in. There are no leak marks around the edges that I can see.

The barrel around the base of the front sight is clean with no obvious signs of gas escaping.


In related news, I took my Savage varminter out for a spin, using the H4895 load that the AR seemed to like. If the AR liked it, the Savage loved it. I think I'm done fooling around with the Reloder powders that don't work well. This is a pic of a 5 shot group at 100 yards:

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by bigbossman

OK, thanks for the list. In order:

The bolt had a lot of carbon on the front half, so not sure if that's normal.

Have not checked the barrel nut yet.

Carbon is normal on the back of the bolt between the gas rings and the tail. That is where the gas is dumped into the bolt carrier goes and then pushes the carrier back against the bolt that is sealing the front of the carrier when the bolt carrier group is locked into the barrel. What you do not want is lots of carbon getting bast the bolt tail and out the back of the carrier and on to the firing pin spool. The bolt tail should fit the carrier with a nice fit to seal up the gas inside the carrier so it does it's job there before the gas vents open after the bolt unlocks.

Barrel nut alignment is correct when the gas tube can float left-right within the shamrock hole at the front of the upper receiver.
If the barrel nut is misaligned, it can hold the gas tube to one side or limit the gas tube's freedom which means that the gas tube mushroom will be worn by the gas key over time and then you get more gas leaking out the front of the key.