FFL03 Questions Regarding Firearm Purchases

[Xplosiv3]

Update 11/5/22 Received my FFL03 Today. Thanks for the responses! I have a couple more questions. See post #10.

Hello all, considering getting a FFL03+COE. Just have a couple questions which I can't find much info about anywhere else. Hopefully this thread serves others who have the same questions.

1. I understand you can cash & carry C&R LONG GUNS from private parties. (Example: Buying a Mosin Nagant from somebody at a gun show.) What paperwork exactly needs to be filled out when you do that? Does the ATF mail you a log book to keep records in once you are approved for the FFL03 and you just write down the serial # and the price you paid for the gun with the date? Do you need to fill out a firearm ownership report on CFARS? Does the seller need to fill out any paperwork?

2. And what about C&R eligible HANDGUNS from private parties? Are they treated as a regular handgun PPT purchase where the dealer holds onto it and you have to pick it up in 10 days? Or does it just have to be done through a dealer, but you are exempt from the 10 day waiting period?

3. What if you buy a C&R Handgun from a non-dealer but another FFL03 + COE holder? Do you still have to do A PPT and does the 10 day waiting period apply?

4. How does all of this work for out of state purchases from either a private party or dealer. Scenario: You go to a gun show in Arizona and want to buy a C&R Handgun from a private party, would it be the same procedure as question #1?

5. Scenario: You go to a Turners Outdoorsman or Pawn Shop in Arizona in person and they are selling a C&R eligible firearm you want to buy, are you exempt from the AZ residency requirement for purchasing a C&R firearm from a licensed dealer because you are a FFL03?

6. When buying C&R firearms online from out of state licensed dealers, can they just be shipped to your front porch without going through a FFL?

7. When buying Ammo from a private party (in person) in CA, does the ammo still need to be transferred through a licensed dealer? Yeah, I know many of you are going to say if it's not on paper, it didn't happen but I'd still like to know.

[morrcarr67]

Originally Posted by Xplosiv3

Hello all, considering getting a FFL03+COE. Just have a couple questions which I can't find much info about anywhere else. Hopefully this thread serves others who have the same questions.

1. I understand you can cash & carry C&R LONG GUNS from private parties. (Example: Buying a SKS from somebody at a gun show.) What paperwork exactly needs to be filled out when you do that? Does the ATF mail you a log book to keep records in once you are approved for the FFL03 and you just write down the serial # and the price you paid for the gun with the date? Do you need to fill out a firearm ownership report on CFARS? Does the seller need to fill out any paperwork?

You also need to hole a CA COE to cash and carry C&R Long Guns in CA. You need to get your own A&D book to record your transactions. The book will list what info you need to enter. (If you buy or get one free from someone or company that knows what is needed). You do need to fill out the correct form in CFARS and pay the correct fee.

2. And what about C&R eligible HANDGUNS from private parties? Are they treated as a regular handgun PPT purchase where the dealer holds onto it and you have to pick it up in 10 days? Or does it just have to be done through a dealer, but you are exempt from the 10 day waiting period?

You will still need to do PPT in CA at a licensed gun dealer. If you have hold a CA COE you are exempt from the 10 day wait. Not all licensed dealers know how to do this so you need to check with them BEFORE you start the transfer.

3. What if you buy a C&R Handgun from a non-dealer but another FFL03 + COE holder? Do you still have to do A PPT and does the 10 day waiting period apply?

See my answer above. Purchases from other C&R holders are considered a PPT.


4. How does all of this work for out of state purchases from either a private party or dealer. Scenario: You go to a gun show in Arizona and want to buy a C&R Handgun from a private party, would it be the same procedure as question #1?

You buy the gun, log it into your A&D book. You log into the CFARS system and fill out the correct form and pay the correct fee.

5. Scenario: You go to a Turners Outdoorsman or Pawn Shop in Arizona and they are selling a C&R eligible firearm you want to buy, are you exempt from the AZ residency requirement for purchasing a C&R firearm from a licensed dealer because you are a FFL03?

Your C&R 03 FFL is valid in every state and territory. Not all licensed dealers know what a C&R firearm is or what a C&R FFL is. Dealers are not required to sell you anything you may think you should be able to buy. Move on and keep looking for a dealer that understands what C&R's are and how the C&R FFL works.

6. When buying C&R firearms online from out of state licensed dealers, can they just be shipped to your front porch without going through a FFL?

Not in CA. You need to have them shipped to a licensed dealer or go and get them in person.

7. When buying Ammo from a private party (in person) in CA, does the ammo still need to be transferred through a licensed dealer? Yeah, I know many of you are going to say if it's not on paper, it didn't happen but I'd still like to know.

IF you hold a C&R FFL and a CA COE you are exempt from using a licensed ammo dealer for an ammo transfer.

See answers in red above

[Xplosiv3]

Originally Posted by morrcarr67

See answers in red above

Thank you so much for the quick reply. So I guess my only remaining question is regarding #1.

If a private party wants some type of proof or paperwork that shows they sold the gun to you (being a FFL03+COE holder), what can you give them? Or what form do they fill out? Or do they even have to fill out any form stating that they are no longer in possession of the gun? Or is it as simple as them handing you the gun, you handing them the cash, and the paperwork is all your responsibility?

I could imagine a collector-buyer will eventually run into somebody at a gun show who owns a C&R rifle that they purchased from a licensed dealer and thus, the gun is registered to them, but the seller wants to make sure the person they are selling it to is actually going to report the transaction and not use the gun in a crime and thus the paper trail will lead back to the seller.

[19K]

Originally Posted by Xplosiv3

Thank you so much for the quick reply. So I guess my only remaining question is regarding #1.

If a private party wants some type of proof or paperwork that shows they sold the gun to you (being a FFL03+COE holder), what can you give them? Or what form do they fill out? Or do they even have to fill out any form stating that they are no longer in possession of the gun? Or is it as simple as them handing you the gun, you handing them the cash, and the paperwork is all your responsibility?

I could imagine a collector-buyer will eventually run into somebody at a gun show who owns a C&R rifle that they purchased from a licensed dealer and thus, the gun is registered to them, but the seller wants to make sure the person they are selling it to is actually going to report the transaction and not use the gun in a crime and thus the paper trail will lead back to the seller.

A copy of your COE and C&R. If they have a C&R they have to log it into their AD book with your license information. You may not find many unlicensed people willing to just sell it to you cash and carry though even if you get a copy of their license. Once they legally sell it to you, it is not on the seller for you to comply with the registration process, but again, if a seller knows this, they may want to do a PPT. It is 100% on the buyer to comply with the registration process.

If the seller wants to do a PPT, with a C&R and COE can skip the 10 day wait at the FFL doing the PPT.

Should the buyer not register the weapon and something happens, the seller has a paper trail showing when where and who they sold it to if they have a copy of your license and/or it’s logged into their bound book.

[G-forceJunkie]

Many companys, including the CMP will ship rifles directly to you. Hanguns need to go to a normal FFl for the transfer, but no 10 day wait if you have a COE.

Originally Posted by Xplosiv3

6. When buying C&R firearms online from out of state licensed dealers, can they just be shipped to your front porch without going through a FFL?

[G-forceJunkie]

Give them a copy of your FFL and COE. If the paper trail ever comes to them, they say "I sold it to this FFL." End of story.

Originally Posted by Xplosiv3

I could imagine a collector-buyer will eventually run into somebody at a gun show who owns a C&R rifle that they purchased from a licensed dealer and thus, the gun is registered to them, but the seller wants to make sure the person they are selling it to is actually going to report the transaction and not use the gun in a crime and thus the paper trail will lead back to the seller.

[sbo80]

Originally Posted by G-forceJunkie

Many companys, including the CMP will ship rifles directly to you.

That doesn't make it legal. Private sellers on gunbroker might ship directly to 03 as well because they don't know better. Again, that doesn't make it legal. The "getting caught" threshold might be low or even improbable, but that's true for lots of laws.

[Xplosiv3]

Originally Posted by sbo80

That doesn't make it legal. Private sellers on gunbroker might ship directly to 03 as well because they don't know better. Again, that doesn't make it legal. The "getting caught" threshold might be low or even improbable, but that's true for lots of laws.

I did read somewhere that the ATF only classifies C&R guns as firearms when they are complete + assembled. Where an AR15 receiver for example would be considered a firearm no matter what. So I'm curious if one could get around that legally by shipping the receiver and other parts separately.

I'll have to find where I read that and do a deeper dive into that.

[Nardo1895]

Originally Posted by Xplosiv3

I did read somewhere that the ATF only classifies C&R guns as firearms when they are complete + assembled. Where an AR15 receiver for example would be considered a firearm no matter what. So I'm curious if one could get around that legally by shipping the receiver and other parts separately.

I'll have to find where I read that and do a deeper dive into that.

That isn't quite correct. ATF only classifies/allows complete firearms as C&R eligible. For example, a Springfield 1903 rifle is C&R, but a stripped 1903 receive is not. To go further, the C&R regs say it has to be in original condition, or words to that effect. So technically a sporterized 1903 isn't in its original military configuration and is therefore not a C&R. I would argue a vintage (more than 50 year old) sporterized 1903 is a C&R but how do you establish when it was sporterized?

The serialized receiver is the "firearm" from an ATF perspective, but that has nothing to do with C&R regs.

[Milsurp1]

The federal definition of “firearm” in the federal GCA is related to the federal definition of curio and relic because if a gun is a not a firearm under the GCA it cannot be a curio or a relic. Antiques are a prime example.

[sbo80]

Originally Posted by Xplosiv3

I did read somewhere that the ATF only classifies C&R guns as C&R when they are complete + assembled.

FIFY. Incomplete/receivers would be treated the same as modern firearms, not as if it isn't a firearm at all.

[Xplosiv3]

Hey guys, I have a couple more questions. Just got my FFL03 in the mail today. Are you supposed to just leave it blank where it asks for your signature, position/title, printed name, and date? And then make a bunch of copies of it and if you do end up buying any C&R guns, do you give the seller a copy and then fill it out then and there with THAT day's date? Or what date are you even supposed to put there?

And what is the purpose of the tear off FFL card at the bottom? (I'm assuming you couldn't just give a buyer a copy of that instead if you don't want them having a copy of your FFL03 with your address written on it?)

Where do you get a log book?

Thanks!

[qaa541]

Originally Posted by Xplosiv3

Hey guys, I have a couple more questions. Just got my FFL03 in the mail today. Are you supposed to just leave it blank where it asks for your signature, position/title, printed name, and date? And then make a bunch of copies of it and if you do end up buying any C&R guns, do you give the seller a copy and then fill it out then and there with THAT day's date? Or what date are you even supposed to put there?

And what is the purpose of the tear off FFL card at the bottom? (I'm assuming you couldn't just give a buyer a copy of that instead if you don't want them having a copy of your FFL03 with your address written on it?)

Where do you get a log book?

Thanks!

Leave the original unsigned and make tons of copies. Sign+date and hand out the copies only as necessary.

The big part that you sign and date is what you hand over

[Xplosiv3]

Originally Posted by qaa541

Leave the original unsigned and make tons of copies. Sign+date and hand out the copies only as necessary.

The big part that you sign and date is what you hand over

That's what I thought. Still curious about what date needs to be written there and that little tear off card on the bottom. I'll give the ATF a call and ask if nobody chimes in in the next couple days.

[Capybara]

Get your book here https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

$17.00

[19K]

Originally Posted by Xplosiv3

That's what I thought. Still curious about what date needs to be written there and that little tear off card on the bottom. I'll give the ATF a call and ask if nobody chimes in in the next couple days.

Don’t know about the card but the date is the date you sign it. Every copy you sign will have a different date.

[Xplosiv3]

Thank you all. The ATF mailed me a "Welcome Booklet" about a week after I got my FFL03 in the mail from them. It came with just some general info, laws, etc, and a Log Book/Acquisition and Disposition Book that has enough space for about 6 or 8 guns (perfect for someone who rarely buys C&R guns and just uses it to buy ammo online.) So you don't have to spend another $20 on a A&D Book from Amazon. Just a FYI.

[Xplosiv3]

Alright another question for you guys.

Let's say a FFL03 + COE holder seller in Northern CA has a C&R Handgun they wish to sell to another FFL03 + COE holder buyer in Southern CA and they don't want to have to meet up in person.

Can the seller ship the handgun directly to the buyer's FFL in Southern CA to do a PPT and thus, the roster for shipped handgun transactions at a dealer wouldn't apply because the buyer is a FFL03+COE holder? Would the seller need to ship the handgun from a FFL to a FFL?

Or is that even possible? Or would they have to meet in person at a FFL to do a PPT no matter what?

[Spyder]

If your local FFL knows and understands the law and is willing to do it, the seller can ship a C&R handgun to your normal FFL, who can then process the transfer as a C&R to you. It will go through their system, but you can bypass the 10 day wait and take it home that day.
It only works for C&R stuff, not for just any off-roster.

You'll want to talk to your FFL and make sure they understand that process before you have anything sent, or else the return turns in to a real pain in the butt.

[19K]

Originally Posted by Xplosiv3

Alright another question for you guys.

Let's say a FFL03 + COE holder seller in Northern CA has a C&R Handgun they wish to sell to another FFL03 + COE holder buyer in Southern CA and they don't want to have to meet up in person.

Can the seller ship the handgun directly to the buyer's FFL in Southern CA to do a PPT and thus, the roster for shipped handgun transactions at a dealer wouldn't apply because the buyer is a FFL03+COE holder? Would the seller need to ship the handgun from a FFL to a FFL?

Or is that even possible? Or would they have to meet in person at a FFL to do a PPT no matter what?

All C&R handguns are exempt from the roster regardless of the buyer has a C&R+COE. The licenses will allow you to bypass the 10 day waiting period though.

As far as a “ppt” is concerned, if the seller ships the gun to your FFL, you would have to pay the FFL transfer fee which can be between $50-$150. It is only a PPT if both parties are present for the transfer.

[Xplosiv3]

Another question if anybody sees this:

I know all C&R guns you buy (at the time you have a c&r license) have to be declared in your A&D book regardless of whether they were cash and carry transactions or FFL transactions.

Who's name do you write down in your A&D book if it's a consignment C&R gun at a gun shop? The gun shop's or the original seller's? I know some gun shops don't give out personal info on consignment sellers.

And if you are buying a c&r gun on GunBroker for example from a pawn shop in another state and have it transferred to your local FFL to conduct the transaction, how would you fill that out in your A&D book? Do you write down the pawn shop's name with their FFL number? Do you write down the pawn shop FFL's owners name? Do you have to write anything extra if the transaction was conducted at your local FFL?

And finally, what if you are buying a C&R gun on Gunbroker from a private party in another state but having your local FFL conduct the transaction? Do you just write down the seller's name and address in your A&D book?

Thanks

[mdr110]

if a shop/FFL is involved (consignment or involved in DROS), put the shop's name address in your book.

Gun shows (physcial out of state) or other individual buys, you can verify ID for age, but some goes beyond like ID #'s in the book but personally I don't think it's required.