Federal Law Enforcement Agency off-roster handgun purchase

[vagabond23]

Was wondering if anyone had any direct experience with this question, as an LEO or FFL maybe. Regarding a sworn member in a federal law enforcement agency who enforces the law but DOESN'T carry a service pistol. Many probably haven't heard of such a thing, but there are agencies that have a few positions of badge carrying sworn personnel, who don't carry(and no official firearm training). Question is regarding if they qualify for the off-roster exemption.
I would think so, based on the CA's website where they talk about the state exemption for authorized peace officers. https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/exemptpo . It would be under group 1. It mentions for use in the discharge of their official duties, or for sales for personal use, and it doesn't really go in to much detail, and didn't find anything more specific on CA Penal Code sect 32000 either.
I'm assuming the FFL would just ask for their badge/credentials. Do they just simply examine these and make sure they're genuine and continue with the sale. Or do they maybe do some other verification, like matching to a specific list of federal law enforcement personnel that are eligible or something like that? So I guess it's mainly a question of how do the FFL's go about actually selling to LEOs?
Thanks, cheers!

[Jess B. Guy]

Federal agents aren't California Peace Officers. PC 830.8

[vagabond23]

CA PC 32000 - Officers in any federal law enforcement agency qualify for non-roster exemption.

[Jess B. Guy]

Correct...left that out!

[Jess B. Guy]

Also correct. PC 32000 says "law enforcement"...somewhat nebulous. One would "assume" any FFL selling a non-roster firearm would examine whatever the credentials were of a purchaser. The DROS system is also a check, based on the entry by the FFL.

Sworn is also a nebulous term. Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Shumer, etc. all are "sworn". God help us.

Do the non-LE you identified have arrest powers? Yep. Just like any citizen. But that doesn't allow them to purchase off roster firearms.

[Ubermcoupe]

Originally Posted by vagabond23

Was wondering if anyone had any direct experience with this question, as an LEO or FFL maybe. Regarding a sworn officer in a federal law enforcement agency who DOESN'T carry a service pistol. Many probably haven't heard of such a thing, but there are agencies that have a few positions of badge carrying sworn personnel, who don't carry(and no official firearm training). Question is regarding if they qualify for the off-roster exemption.
I would think so, based on the CA's website where they talk about the state exemption for authorized peace officers. https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/exemptpo . It would be under group 1. It mentions for use in the discharge of their official duties, or for sales for personal use, and it doesn't really go in to much detail, and didn't find anything more specific on CA Penal Code sect 32000 either.
I'm assuming the FFL would just ask for their badge/credentials. Do they just simply examine these and make sure they're genuine and continue with the sale. Or do they maybe do some other verification, like matching to a specific list of federal law enforcement officers that are eligible or something like that? So I guess it's mainly a question of how do the FFL's go about actually selling to LEOs?
Thanks, cheers!

'sworn officer' =/= 'sworn law enforcement officer,' as previous stated southerncal714.

Name the agency and the job series code (1801/1805/1863...) you are asking about.

[Federal] TSA screeners have [federal] badges, and I (assume), take an oath of some kind. They are NOT law enforcement and do not qualify for off-roster/magazine exemptions.

IIRC, they do qualify for 'blue-label pricing,' though.

[vagabond23]

@Jess B. Guy , haha, agreed.
@southerncal714 , that's what I'm getting at, I think most people think of "law enforcement" as someone with a gun, that has arresting powers. Not all laws in the CFR and USC require an arrest or someone with a gun to enforce it. All federal employees take an oath as far as I'm aware of, but not all are separately sworn with a badge/credentials. Where does it say that you need to be able to "arrest someone" or be armed? That seems like you're just drawing your own conclusion. I don't mean that sarcastically, that's kind of my whole question for the thread, is if there some sort of restriction, actually written somewhere.
Not too familiar with those job examples you list, but in addition, positions like IRS auditors, CBP officers that just deal with imports/trade. Jobs where the law enforcement is geared to seizing goods/property, assessing financial obligations on citizens, or penalties etc. That's why you are a sworn officer with a badge. They still have law enforcement powers, maybe not just the sexy LE stereotypes on TV. There is more to law enforcement than just arresting people. That's where I'm not coming up with any luck with google searches about this topic. As Jess B. Guy says, the language of what is out there for this CA law seems very vague.
For instance, one definition I found of a 'sworn law enforcement officer', on lawinsider.com :
Sworn law enforcement officer means any individual who derives plenary or special law enforcement powers (such as the power of arrest) from, and is an employee of, a federal, state, or local government agency or instrumentality;


This definition gives power of arrest as an example, but there are other law enforcement powers, as I mentioned above, seizing property, assessing fines etc.
I wish CA had their own definition of this. Normally how law works is if something has not already been specifically defined by an office, then the common general dictionary definition would apply.

[vagabond23]

Hi @Ubermcoupe , for instance 1889 series, enforces international trade law in 19CFR and 19USC. I'm not familiar with the TSA screeners,( if they do actually have a badge?), but how are you saying they aren't enforcing the law? Surely there are travel/airline regulations in another chapter of the CFR and USC that they are enforcing..?

[Ubermcoupe]

Originally Posted by vagabond23

@Jess B. Guy , haha, agreed.
@southerncal714 , that's what I'm getting at, I think most people think of "law enforcement" as someone with a gun, that has arresting powers. Not all laws in the CFR and USC require an arrest or someone with a gun to enforce it. All federal employees take an oath as far as I'm aware of, but not all are separately sworn with a badge/credentials. Where does it say that you need to be able to "arrest someone" or be armed? That seems like you're just drawing your own conclusion. I don't mean that sarcastically, that's kind of my whole question for the thread, is if there some sort of restriction, actually written somewhere.
Not too familiar with those job examples you list, but in addition, positions like IRS auditors, CBP officers that just deal with imports/trade. Jobs where the law enforcement is geared to seizing goods/property, assessing financial obligations on citizens, or penalties etc. That's why you are a sworn officer with a badge. They still have law enforcement powers, maybe not just the sexy LE stereotypes on TV. There is more to law enforcement than just arresting people. That's where I'm not coming up with any luck with google searches about this topic. As Jess B. Guy says, the language of what is out there for this CA law seems very vague.
For instance, one definition I found of a 'sworn law enforcement officer', on lawinsider.com :
Sworn law enforcement officer means any individual who derives plenary or special law enforcement powers (such as the power of arrest) from, and is an employee of, a federal, state, or local government agency or instrumentality;


This definition gives power of arrest as an example, but there are other law enforcement powers, as I mentioned above, seizing property, assessing fines etc.
I wish CA had their own definition of this. Normally how law works is if something has not already been specifically defined by an office, then the common general dictionary definition would apply.

Generally speaking, is your FERS calculated at 1% or 1.7%? i.e are you in a 'covered' position?

If you are not calculated at the law enforcement rate, then your position is not considered law enforcement, and thus not eligible for exemption.

How is an FFL going to know all this... due diligence and probably a couple phone calls.

[RickD427]

Originally Posted by southerncal714

When you say you’re “sworn” aren’t ALL federal employees required to take an oath of office, even if they have nothing to do with LE? Also I have never heard of a federal LEO with arrest authority that was unarmed AND had no firearms training. Do your creds say you have the authority to arrest people? The closest thing to that are BoP, however they have firearms training and at least have limited LE authority.

There are some LE civilian “fed” investigators/roles that have NO LE authority and are unarmed. These come to mind..and yes some have cool looking badges too. But the badge itself doesn't confer LE or arrest authority.

FAA Special Agent - No LE authority and are unarmed
DEA Diversion Investigator - No LE authority and are unarmed
ATF Industry Operations Investigator - No LE authority and are unarmed
NTSB Investigator - No LE authority and are unarmed
USDA Food Safety Inspector - No LE authority and are unarmed
CBP Agriculture or Import Specialist - No LE authority and are unarmed

There are various other non LE civilian investigator positions within traditional Federal LE and non traditional Federal LE agencies all of which have NO arrest authority. All of them, like any federal employee, take an oath of office. This does not make them “sworn” LEO any more than an office secretary.

If you are successful in buying an off roster gun from an FFL and you aren't an actual LEO, you better hope that your purchase isn’t audited by CA DOJ down the road and they call your supervisor to verify your status. Or possibly an actual LEO/1811 in your agency gets wind of what you did (or sees you buying it at Proforce, etc.) and reports you to OPR. Seems like a quick way to end your federal career.

Yes, All federal positions that I'm aware of do have some form of oath upon taking the position, and the taking of an oath is pretty much synonymous with being "sworn."

But the context in which words are used is also important, and the context of the word "sworn" as used in Penal Code section 32000(b)(4) is to folks who have taken a law-enforcement oath. That reading of context is consistent with the purpose of the section, and harmonizes with the other words contained in the section.

OTOH, the mailman takes an "oath" upon becoming a mailman, but the idea that a mailman would have a reason to purchase an off-roster handgun for use in mail delivery duties is not consistent with the purpose of the section, nor does it harmonize with the other words of the section.

You make a good point with your narration of federal folks who have investigative responsibilities with no corresponding law enforcement roles. Such folks are not covered by PC 32000. Please note that section 32000 only addresses federal LAW ENFORCEMENT agencies. It does not include all federal INVESTIGATIVE agencies, even if they do have cool looking badges.

[Jess B. Guy]

To further confabulate this discussion...as an ATF Agent (gun and badge type) I took the PC 832 course which allowed us to act as California Peace Officers while fulfilling our federal duties. It helped when arresting and serving search warrants. However, as a retired ATF Agent, with LE retirement, I cannot purchase a new off-roster firearm. (Except for some limited types of sales - PPT, etc.). Doncha love California laws?

[vagabond23]

Good points RickD427 and UberMcoupe. The only pushback I'd give is why are you narrowing law enforcement to someone with arresting powers? Is a badge carrying IRS officer who looks at a companies taxes and bills them for not paying what is owed to uncle sam due to not following the law, not enforcing law? Is a badge carrying customs officer who isn't armed but is authorized to seize a container of counterfeit merchandise coming in to the country, not enforcing the law? I could see how a cop could view law enforcement totally in one light, but that doesn't mean there are not other areas of law enforcement. I wouldn't include a postman in this argument, what laws are they enforcing?
And again, this is a direct quote from CA's gov website, which says can be for personal use:
Purchase, Use, and Resale Restrictions: The sale to, or purchase by, sworn members of these agencies is also permitted. These sworn members may purchase non-roster handguns for personal use and may generally sell or transfer the non-roster handgun to any firearm eligible purchaser at a licensed firearm dealer.

[RickD427]

Originally Posted by vagabond23

Good points RickD427 and UberMcoupe. The only pushback I'd give is why are you narrowing law enforcement to someone with arresting powers? Is a badge carrying IRS officer who looks at a companies taxes and bills them for not paying what is owed to uncle sam due to not following the law, not enforcing law? Is a badge carrying customs officer who isn't armed but is authorized to seize a container of counterfeit merchandise coming in to the country, not enforcing the law? I could see how a cop could view law enforcement totally in one light, but that doesn't mean there are not other areas of law enforcement. I wouldn't include a postman in this argument, what laws are they enforcing?
And again, this is a direct quote from CA's gov website, which says can be for personal use:
Purchase, Use, and Resale Restrictions: The sale to, or purchase by, sworn members of these agencies is also permitted. These sworn members may purchase non-roster handguns for personal use and may generally sell or transfer the non-roster handgun to any firearm eligible purchaser at a licensed firearm dealer.

The reason for the narrowing of the view is the context of the section.

It's quite clear from the wording of the section, that its purpose is to allow the listed folks to acquire an off-roster firearm for use in their duties. The personal acquisition clause of the section does not explicitly so provide, but the agency clause is specific on that issue, and the personal acquisition clause follows.

The DOJ's website is not an accurate statement of the law. It's a summary designed to be easily understood. Since we're talking about legal specifics here, go straight to PC 32000 for your information.

All of the folks that you mention do enforce some aspect of law, but that's irrelevant to the discussion. Since they don't carry firearms, the purpose of having a firearms exception for them serves no purpose.

[mossy]

Originally Posted by Jess B. Guy

To further confabulate this discussion...as an ATF Agent (gun and badge type) I took the PC 832 course which allowed us to act as California Peace Officers while fulfilling our federal duties. It helped when arresting and serving search warrants. However, as a retired ATF Agent, with LE retirement, I cannot purchase a new off-roster firearm. (Except for some limited types of sales - PPT, etc.). Doncha love California laws?

No retired LEO can purchase a new off roster in CA.

[9Cal_OC]

[vagabond23]

@southerncal714 sorry I mentioned it in a thread I opened in the 'General' forum as well, I wasn't sure which forum would be the appropriate one. CBP 1889 series. ie, going through FLETC, getting sworn in upon graduation. Separate from just being a federal employee and taking that oath. I don't think any Fed credentials/badge say specifically what their powers are, like arrest, serve warrants etc... It says "empowered to exercise the authority and perform the duties provided by law and department of homeland security regulations" To me that means 'law enforcement'...
Yeah you bring up a good point though, it can be open to interpretation, so probably the best course of action is I should just reach out to CA DOJ and try to get a specific answer from them. And have them tell me what they consider a "sworn officer" is, and have that in writing, if it's not defined elsewhere.

[vagabond23]

Hey, I'm not saying your wrong and I'm right. I'm just trying to look at it as how the law is actually written in CA. As in, I wouldn't think it matters what the federal government defines a 'law enforcement officer' as, what kind of retirement you get, etc.. As you infer, it matters how CA DOJ defines a 'sworn officer'. I'll post a follow up when/if I get a reply from CA DOJ.
And yeah, looking at the whole CA roster thing I wish I knew about the restrictions before I got out of the USMC and got what I wanted then. What a mess CA is...
Not sure what you're talking about trying to carry "off duty"...

[mossy]

I am confused, is OP a Fed employee?

[vagabond23]

@southerncal714 , agreed. That's what part of this is, trying to do my due diligence, so I can actually do something legally, not just do what I can get away with. Based on what I've heard, I bet I could go into an FFL and get an off-roster with my creds. I know you can't tell a person just from a few forum threads, but that isn't my intention, just to do what I can get away with, but instead to actually follow the letter of the law.
I appreciate the comments.
@mossy yeah just mentioned in the last comments.

[M1NM]

Originally Posted by mossy

I am confused, is OP a Fed employee?

Newbie - VAGABOND23 - 11 posts

From Vagabond I get he's a wanderer - troll if you will of web sites. 11 posts and wondering about feds buying guns confirms troll status looking for an FFL to break the law.
Or maybe he just wants to print out some credentials and get a badge off fleabay to go buy an off roster gun.

[vagabond23]

Jeez, this post really brought out some interesting comments and assumptions based off limited data...

[mossy]

Originally Posted by vagabond23

@mossy yeah just mentioned in the last comments.

Originally Posted by vagabond23

CBP 1889 series.

Ok.....what is that.....are you a CBPO, border patrol, K9, agricultural specialist......what is your job title? what do you do and do you receive law enforcement retirement?

Originally Posted by vagabond23

Jeez, this post really brought out some interesting comments and assumptions based off limited data...

Honestly you are not giving us much to work with.... LEO's know they are LEO's..... don't matter if it's city, county, state or federal. When you earn the right to be called a Law Enforcement Officer, you know it 100%. Law enforcement is a calling, when you made it you know it.
You not knowing if you are a LEO, and giving a series number instead proudly saying what you are leads me to believe that you are a federal employee trying to pass yourself off as a federal law enforcement officer to purchase off roster guns. that's very illegal and defiantly against your agencies policies. If you want a job in federal law enforcement, there are plenty of openings....go through the process and earn it. If my dumbazz managed to make it through FLETC you can too.

[roostersgt]

I believe somewhere in the law is the requirement that one be sworn, work for a law enforcement agency, and that they carry a firearm in the performance of their duties. Thats the whole purpose of them being eligible for the exemption and being able to purchase off roster firearms and standard capacity magazines. I don't agree with the roster, but it is what is. Many agencies require some type of swearing in, and a while lot more state they're some type of "law enforcement". They've really watered down what it means to be a cop nowadays. Everybody wants the title and benefits, but damn few are actually qualified and able do the real "job".

[Hornetsnest]

Originally Posted by mossy

Honestly you are not giving us much to work with.... LEO's know they are LEO's..... don't matter if it's city, county, state or federal. When you earn the right to be called a Law Enforcement Officer, you know it 100%. Law enforcement is a calling, when you made it you know it.
You not knowing if you are a LEO, and giving a series number instead proudly saying what you are leads me to believe that you are a federal employee trying to pass yourself off as a federal law enforcement officer to purchase off roster guns. that's very illegal and defiantly against your agencies policies. If you want a job in federal law enforcement, there are plenty of openings....go through the process and earn it. If my dumbazz managed to make it through FLETC you can too.

OP is being intentional vague for a reason.

Definitely not passing the smell test...

[BONECUTTER]

As an FFL I have had multiple people try to use Fed creds to buy Off Roster that were really not "Law Enforcement". They just work for the Agency.

IOI for the ATF have Fed Creds and enforce laws but they do not have powers to arrest.

There are others that are similar where the ID looks legit but they are not really Law Enforcement in that capacity. I had a USDA agent who told me he carries a gun for work and then pulled out a CCW. If you were a Law Enforcement Agent you wouldn't need a CCW to carry. He told me I could call his Agency to verify and the people who answered the phone laughed and said no he is not Federal Law Enforcement and his ID would need to say Special Agent to qualify.

The most frequent attemps I get are Federal Flight Deck Officers. They have legit looking creds but they are just civilian pilots who have gone threw the training to have a gun in the cockpit of an airplane. Outside the cockpit they are allowed to protect they have no Law Enforcement powers.... I get like 1 a month.

[TKM]

Feds aren't even allowed to buy standard capacity mags in California.

[BONECUTTER]

Originally Posted by TKM

Feds aren't even allowed to buy standard capacity mags in California.

Sorry, this is incorrect.

32405. Section 32310 does not apply to the sale to, lending to, transfer to, purchase by, receipt of, possession of, or importation into this state of, a large-capacity magazine by a sworn peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, or sworn federal law enforcement officer, who is authorized to carry a firearm in the course and scope of that officer’s duties.

Now when Lockyer was AG he allowed the sale of LCM's to Feds. Then Kamala stopped it when she was AG. Then a law was passed to allow it. Hence some confusion.

[Lonestargrizzly]

Originally Posted by TKM

Feds aren't even allowed to buy standard capacity mags in California.

Wrong.

[Hornetsnest]

Originally Posted by vagabond23

I don't think any Fed credentials/badge say specifically what their powers are, like arrest, serve warrants etc... It says "empowered to exercise the authority and perform the duties provided by law and department of homeland security regulations" To me that means 'law enforcement'...

DHS LEO credentials do specifical articulate authorities such as: authorized to serve and execute search and arrest warrants, make arrests without a warrant, bear firearms, etc.

The fact that you dont know this and you mention creds refering to DHS leads me to believe you work for DHS and probably have creds, but you are probably not an actual DHS LEO.

Again, Im not sure why you are being intentional vague regarding your specific job title and agency. I understand privacy and OPSEC but people cannot answer your specific question without knowing your specific information. Probably better to just go talk to FFLs face-to-face to get the answers you need.

[Tree Cutter]

OP if you are still reading this thread. Just ask your agency management if you (specifically you) are a law enforcement officer (not just considered, but actual). Why ask for the opinions of internet strangers? Like someone else posted earlier that "LEO's know they are LEO's"

[ArtSki]

Originally Posted by vagabond23

@southerncal714 sorry I mentioned it in a thread I opened in the 'General' forum as well, I wasn't sure which forum would be the appropriate one. CBP 1889 series. ie, going through FLETC, getting sworn in upon graduation. Separate from just being a federal employee and taking that oath. I don't think any Fed credentials/badge say specifically what their powers are, like arrest, serve warrants etc... It says "empowered to exercise the authority and perform the duties provided by law and department of homeland security regulations" To me that means 'law enforcement'...
Yeah you bring up a good point though, it can be open to interpretation, so probably the best course of action is I should just reach out to CA DOJ and try to get a specific answer from them. And have them tell me what they consider a "sworn officer" is, and have that in writing, if it's not defined elsewhere.

it does actually, specifically say "...who is empowered to exercise the authority and perform the duties provided by law and the department of homeland security regulations, including making arrests, conducting investigations, conducting searches, making seizures, bearing firearms, or serving any order, warrant or other process"

[mossy]

Originally Posted by Tree Cutter

OP if you are still reading this thread. Just ask your agency management if you (specifically you) are a law enforcement officer (not just considered, but actual). Why ask for the opinions of internet strangers? Like someone else posted earlier that "LEO's know they are LEO's"

I doubt he is still reading this. He didn't get the answer he wanted so he bounced out. Guarantee you he is carrying claiming LEOSA eventhough he's not a LEO.

[Rogue187]

Originally Posted by vagabond23

@southerncal714 sorry I mentioned it in a thread I opened in the 'General' forum as well, I wasn't sure which forum would be the appropriate one. CBP 1889 series. ie, going through FLETC, getting sworn in upon graduation. Separate from just being a federal employee and taking that oath. I don't think any Fed credentials/badge say specifically what their powers are, like arrest, serve warrants etc... It says "empowered to exercise the authority and perform the duties provided by law and department of homeland security regulations" To me that means 'law enforcement'...
Yeah you bring up a good point though, it can be open to interpretation, so probably the best course of action is I should just reach out to CA DOJ and try to get a specific answer from them. And have them tell me what they consider a "sworn officer" is, and have that in writing, if it's not defined elsewhere.

For sure you just implied you haven't a single clue because for those who are LE their creds spell out specifically what authorities they posses. You mentioned that.

Each different agencies Creds spell out their authorities and what powers they are afforded. If they carry a firearm and make arrests, serve warrants and conduct investigations it is specifically spelled out.

Some agencies creds even cite the USC where their authorities are granted from.

If yours don't have the specific wordings and where your authorities are from then you DO NOT have LE authority.

Hell, Even FBI mechanics have creds. DEA Secretaries have creds. Every employee that works for a Federal Agency receives an official ID and sometimes creds.

So unless your creds have the specific wording and authorities your not LE. Don't pretend to be LE cause if word gets back you could find yourself out of a job and under charges for impersonation.

[9Cal_OC]

Originally Posted by mossy

I doubt he is still reading this. He didn't get the answer he wanted so he bounced out. Guarantee you he is carrying claiming LEOSA eventhough he's not a LEO.

Well he is a vagabond

[fmxmyway]

This thread was entertaining lol.

[veeklog]

Originally Posted by vagabond23

@southerncal714 sorry I mentioned it in a thread I opened in the 'General' forum as well, I wasn't sure which forum would be the appropriate one. CBP 1889 series. ie, going through FLETC, getting sworn in upon graduation. Separate from just being a federal employee and taking that oath. I don't think any Fed credentials/badge say specifically what their powers are, like arrest, serve warrants etc... It says "empowered to exercise the authority and perform the duties provided by law and department of homeland security regulations" To me that means 'law enforcement'...
Yeah you bring up a good point though, it can be open to interpretation, so probably the best course of action is I should just reach out to CA DOJ and try to get a specific answer from them. And have them tell me what they consider a "sworn officer" is, and have that in writing, if it's not defined elsewhere.

Most large 1811 agencies such as FBI, DEA, HSI Federal Credentials say what there authority is and specifically state what their powers are such as arrest, serve warrants and subpoenas, carry firearms, etc.

[Grobie]

Originally Posted by mossy

Honestly you are not giving us much to work with.... LEO's know they are LEO's..... don't matter if it's city, county, state or federal. When you earn the right to be called a Law Enforcement Officer, you know it 100%. Law enforcement is a calling, when you made it you know it.

This guy gets it.