North Dakota...

[ezaircon4jc]

To further confuse the ND issue (from the USCCA reciprocity site)...

It appears that as of August 1, 2021, when HB 1293 went into effect, North Dakota will only honor resident permits from the states it honors. However, the ND Attorney General’s website indicates both resident and non-resident permits of those states will be honored. Therefore, the USCCA map shows the more conservative version until this issue is resolved.

https://attorneygeneral.nd.gov/publi...y-other-states

[Baja Daze]

Originally Posted by ezaircon4jc

To further confuse the ND issue (from the USCCA reciprocity site)...



https://attorneygeneral.nd.gov/publi...y-other-states

Thanks for posting this, I don't know how I missed it. Several websites currently list North Dakota as a State that does NOT honor Non-Resident Permits, however the verbiage from the North Dakota AG is crystal clear:

In accordance with N.D.C.C. § 62.1-04-03.1, North Dakota will honor a valid concealed carry license/permit (resident and non-resident) issued by a state that has agreed to recognize a North Dakota license.

From my brief review, it appears that verbiage in the proposed HB 1293 and the Final version that was signed by the Governor changed at some point.

[Baja Daze]

This is the statute referenced above by the North Dakota AG:

N.D.C.C. § 62.1-04-03.1

https://www.ndlegis.gov/cencode/t62-1c04.pdf

I am going to call the AG's office on Monday and attempt to clarify this situation and hopefully get something in writing from them that I can post.

This is from Page 6 of the above linked document:

62.1-04-03.1. Reciprocity.

A person who has a valid license issued by another state to carry a concealed firearm or
dangerous weapon in that state and whose state grants to residents of this state the right to
carry a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon without requiring a separate license to carry a
concealed firearm or dangerous weapon issued by that state may carry, subject to the
provisions of this state's law, a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon in this state, and the
other state's license is valid in this state.

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by Baja Daze

Thanks for posting this, I don't know how I missed it. Several websites currently list North Dakota as a State that does NOT honor Non-Resident Permits, however the verbiage from the North Dakota AG is crystal clear:

In accordance with N.D.C.C. § 62.1-04-03.1, North Dakota will honor a valid concealed carry license/permit (resident and non-resident) issued by a state that has agreed to recognize a North Dakota license.

From my brief review, it appears that verbiage in the proposed HB 1293 and the Final version that was signed by the Governor changed at some point.

Originally Posted by Baja Daze

This is the statute referenced above by the North Dakota AG:

N.D.C.C. § 62.1-04-03.1

https://www.ndlegis.gov/cencode/t62-1c04.pdf

I am going to call the AG's office on Monday and attempt to clarify this situation and hopefully get something in writing from them that I can post.

This is from Page 6 of the above linked document:

62.1-04-03.1. Reciprocity.

A person who has a valid license issued by another state to carry a concealed firearm or
dangerous weapon in that state and whose state grants to residents of this state the right to
carry a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon without requiring a separate license to carry a
concealed firearm or dangerous weapon issued by that state may carry, subject to the
provisions of this state's law, a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon in this state, and the
other state's license is valid in this state.

Looks like one is good to go with an AZ permit. I currently have CA, WA & AZ. I just need OR to cover 99% of states I may visit. Until national reciprocity is passed, I will not be visiting NY.

[Baja Daze]

Originally Posted by ezaircon4jc

Looks like one is good to go with an AZ permit. I currently have CA, WA & AZ. I just need OR to cover 99% of states I may visit. Until national reciprocity is passed, I will not be visiting NY.

An Arizona resident CWP is absolutely good to go in North Dakota, the issue at hand would pertain to an Arizona non-resident CWP and the non-resident permits issued by other states. However, the more I explore this, the more I am convinced that North Dakota does in fact honor non-resident permits.

I also checked the USCCA carry map and it now indicates that North Dakota is good to go with a non-resident permit. However, https://handgunlaw.us/ is still indicating that North Dakota does NOT honor non-resident permits. I will contact Gary Slider over at handgunlaw and get this matter cleared up with him and I will still call the North Dakota AG on Monday too!

[BAJ475]

Originally Posted by Baja Daze

An Arizona resident CWP is absolutely good to go in North Dakota, the issue at hand would pertain to an Arizona non-resident CWP and the non-resident permits issued by other states. However, the more I explore this, the more I am convinced that North Dakota does in fact honor non-resident permits.

I also checked the USCCA carry map and it now indicates that North Dakota is good to go with a non-resident permit. However, https://handgunlaw.us/ is still indicating that North Dakota does NOT honor non-resident permits. I will contact Gary Slider over at handgunlaw and get this matter cleared up with him and I will still call the North Dakota AG on Monday too!

Let me play the devil's advocate. While the AG's website supports the conclusion that ND will honor nonresident permits, only an appellate court's opinion would be truly binding and I could not find any. So lets look at the statute.

62.1-04-03.1. Reciprocity.
A person who has a valid license issued by another state to carry a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon in that state and whose state grants to residents of this state the right to carry a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon without requiring a separate license to carry a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon issued by that state may carry, subject to the provisions of this state's law, a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon in this state, and the other state's license is valid in this state.

The question is the meaning of the words "whose state." Is it referring to the person's state or the state that issued the permit, which are clearly different when discussing nonresident permits? I find it difficult, if not impossible, to interpret those words as referring to anything other than the person's state. If the intent was to recognize all nonresident permits from states that recognize ND permits, the statute probably would have used the words "that state" like it did earlier in the sentence. But it did not and using different words implies a different intent and meaning.

So in my opinion residents of CA, OR, HI, IL, MD, NJ, NY, CT, RI & MA cannot lawfully carry in North Dakota the same as all other nonresidents who do not have a valid carry permit. However, ND should recognize my WA and UT permits because ID recognizes ND permits. Likewise, ND should recognize an nonresident permit held by a VT resident because VT recognizes ND permits. Accordingly, the ND AG is not entirely wrong about SD recognizing nonresident permits, there is just a trap lurking in what he is saying, at least IMHO.

[Baja Daze]

Originally Posted by BAJ475

Let me play the devil's advocate. While the AG's website supports the conclusion that ND will honor nonresident permits, only an appellate court's opinion would be truly binding and I could not find any. So lets look at the statute.

62.1-04-03.1. Reciprocity.
A person who has a valid license issued by another state to carry a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon in that state and whose state grants to residents of this state the right to carry a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon without requiring a separate license to carry a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon issued by that state may carry, subject to the provisions of this state's law, a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon in this state, and the other state's license is valid in this state.

The question is the meaning of the words "whose state." Is it referring to the person's state or the state that issued the permit, which are clearly different when discussing nonresident permits? I find it difficult, if not impossible, to interpret those words as referring to anything other than the person's state. If the intent was to recognize all nonresident permits from states that recognize ND permits, the statute probably would have used the words "that state" like it did earlier in the sentence. But it did not and using different words implies a different intent and meaning.

So in my opinion residents of CA, OR, HI, IL, MD, NJ, NY, CT, RI & MA cannot lawfully carry in North Dakota the same as all other nonresidents who do not have a valid carry permit. However, ND should recognize my WA and UT permits because ID recognizes ND permits. Likewise, ND should recognize an nonresident permit held by a VT resident because VT recognizes ND permits. Accordingly, the ND AG is not entirely wrong about SD recognizing nonresident permits, there is just a trap lurking in what he is saying, at least IMHO.

This thread is the quintessential example of what is wrong with the 2A and the RKBA in this country, you have to be an Attorney just to hope you can even begin to remain legal and even then, you will get conflicting opinions by all the different Attorneys involved! And in this case, I am not even sure if the North Dakota AG himself is even correct in regard to honoring non-resident permits!!

Just to clarify a couple of issues here, North Dakota permitless carry, currently only applies to legal residents of North Dakota and North Dakota only honors permits from 38 other states. If in fact North Dakota ONLY honors Resident permits, then one would have to be a legal resident of one of those 38 states and be able to obtain a resident permit from that state in order to have their permit honored in North Dakota! Now North Dakota does issue non-resident permits, but on a limited basis that does not help a resident of any state outside the 38 with reciprocity:

Non-ND residents must have a valid concealed weapon license from their home state, which state must have reciprocity with North Dakota. The home state is determined by the driver’s license.


In regard to interpreting this statute quoted above, simply insert a specific State in lieu of "State" and re-read. I agree the "whose state" is poorly worded but it refers to the issuing state of said permit. Most statutes that restrict permit recognition to Resident permits typically state something like "hold a valid permit from their state of residence."

62.1-04-03.1. Reciprocity.

A person who has a valid license issued by Arizona to carry a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon in Arizona and Arizona grants to residents of this state the right to carry a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon without requiring a separate license to carry a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon issued by Arizona may carry, subject to the provisions of this state's law, a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon in this state, and the Arizona license is valid in this state.

And not to be pedantic, but technically Vermont does not recognize any permit, this is the one truly Constitutional Carry State and the only state that does not even issue any type of permit.

[Baja Daze]

So I heard from Gary Slider at handgunlaw today! He is the Guru of all these issues and his website states that North Dakota does NOT honor non-resident permits: https://handgunlaw.us/states/northdakota.pdf

Essentially Gary stated that they simply report the law and the current North Dakota law as cited below, which Gary provided, explicitly states "from the state in which the individual is a resident."

This still does NOT explain why the North Dakota AG website explicitly states the opposite that North Dakota DOES in fact honor non-resident permits? Maybe an obscure amendment to a non-RKBA Bill, or Caselaw or the AG is 100% incorrect? Anyway, I am calling North Dakota in the morning!

62.1-04-02. Carrying concealed firearms or dangerous weapons - License distinctions.

1. An individual, other than a law enforcement officer, may not carry a firearm or dangerous weapon concealed unless the individual is licensed to do so or exempted under this chapter.

2. An individual who is not otherwise precluded from possessing a class 2 firearm and dangerous weapon license under this chapter and who has possessed for at least thirty days a valid driver's license or nondriver identification card issued by the department of transportation may carry a firearm concealed under this chapter.

3. An individual may carry a firearm concealed under this chapter if the individual qualifies for reciprocity under section 62.1-04-03.1 and the individual has the equivalent of a class 2 firearm and dangerous weapon license from the state in which the individual is a resident.

[Baja Daze]

I spoke with some extremely nice people in North Dakota today! It's so refreshing to actually deal with a state that has a competent and responsive government, unlike Kaliforniastan! I did get transferred a few times, but everybody picked-up after the first ring, spoke fluent English and was eager to assist me!

Ultimately my conversation was with the North Dakota BCI after initially calling the AG. I did ask to speak with the AG personally, however he was in a meeting, LOL!

It took a few minutes of explaining for BCI to fully understand the situation, then they got a bit concerned and asked me for the code section I was citing, which I also read to them. My comment was that based upon this section, regardless of the fact that North Dakota has Reciprocity with all of my current permits, I am NOT a resident of any of those states and ND code specifically states that I must be a resident of the state who issued my permit! They were very eager to resolve this and will call be back tomorrow!

[BAJ475]

Originally Posted by Baja Daze

I spoke with some extremely nice people in North Dakota today! It's so refreshing to actually deal with a state that has a competent and responsive government, unlike Kaliforniastan! I did get transferred a few times, but everybody picked-up after the first ring, spoke fluent English and was eager to assist me!

Ultimately my conversation was with the North Dakota BCI after initially calling the AG. I did ask to speak with the AG personally, however he was in a meeting, LOL!

It took a few minutes of explaining for BCI to fully understand the situation, then they got a bit concerned and asked me for the code section I was citing, which I also read to them. My comment was that based upon this section, regardless of the fact that North Dakota has Reciprocity with all of my current permits, I am NOT a resident of any of those states and ND code specifically states that I must be a resident of the state who issued my permit! They were very eager to resolve this and will call be back tomorrow!

Baja Daze, it is great that they appear to be willing to work with you. Not recognizing CA permits does not harm CA but merely aides CA in denying its law abiding residents their 2A rights. You might also point out that while VT does not issue permits it recognizes ND permits so ND should allow VT residents to carry in ND.

[Baja Daze]

Originally Posted by Baja Daze

I spoke with some extremely nice people in North Dakota today! It's so refreshing to actually deal with a state that has a competent and responsive government, unlike Kaliforniastan! I did get transferred a few times, but everybody picked-up after the first ring, spoke fluent English and was eager to assist me!

Ultimately my conversation was with the North Dakota BCI after initially calling the AG. I did ask to speak with the AG personally, however he was in a meeting, LOL!

It took a few minutes of explaining for BCI to fully understand the situation, then they got a bit concerned and asked me for the code section I was citing, which I also read to them. My comment was that based upon this section, regardless of the fact that North Dakota has Reciprocity with all of my current permits, I am NOT a resident of any of those states and ND code specifically states that I must be a resident of the state who issued my permit! They were very eager to resolve this and will call be back tomorrow!

So the North Dakota BCI called me back early Tuesday morning as promised! It was early here, but they are +2 hours ahead of Kaliforniastan. These people are beyond nice and super helpful, it makes me question even more why I am still here!

Anyway, we spoke a long time, but the net result is that the BCI has reached out to the AG's office and they are mutually working on this issue. They asked me very politely if it was okay if they called me back next week, and I said of course! The apparent conflict between the ND code and the AG statement has been acknowledged and we shall see where this ultimately leads us.

I stressed that I did NOT want to violate ND law when I visit or be a "Test Case" in the event of an incident and need a resolution. Explained that at this point, I can't even apply for a ND permit since I currently don't have a CA LTC and my wait for one will probably take a year and there is NO reciprocity between ND and CA because we are one of just 10 states + D.C. who don't honor any other state permits. So even when I do receive my CA LTC, still can't carry on that in ND, but will then be eligible to apply for a ND permit, but that's another entire process and wait and cost. Was just trying to generate a bit more sympathy for my cause here!

I did have to clarify a bit for them a non-resident permit. We focused on my Arizona CWP which currently has reciprocity with North Dakota. Explained that there really is no such thing as a separate "non-resident" AZ CWP and that Arizona makes no distinction between residents and non-residents of Arizona, it's the same identical CWP without any differences. And in fact, there is NO address or residency information even printed on the Arizona CWP. And the only reason it's referred to as a non-resident permit for me is solely due to the fact that I am currently not a legal resident of the State of Arizona.

Used Colorado as an example, as they also have reciprocity with Arizona, but I must be a legal resident of the state that issued my permit for me to be legal carrying in Colorado with my AZ CWP and this is codified in statute. So in this example, Colorado would consider my AZ CWP a "non-resident" permit, since I am not an Arizona resident with an Arizona DL or ID. But if I moved to Arizona next week and obtained an Arizona DL or ID, then I would be legal to carry in Colorado on my same AZ CWP! And this is the same issue I am now currently facing in ND, can I legally carry in ND on my AZ CWP as a "non-resident" of Arizona?

[Baja Daze]

Received a very nice follow-up call this week from the North Dakota BCI. They just wanted to assure me that they are addressing this issue and did not want me to think that they had forgotten about me, LOL!

This is such a contrast to Kaliforniastan State government where they don't even answer the phone! Makes me question even further why I remain in this dystopian State and continue to feed them tax revenue.....