No shooting for a while

[Fjold]

Well, it looks like I'm going to be off shooting for a bit while the doctors try to figure what to do with an old Labral tear in my left (shooting) shoulder. Apparently years ago I damaged my labrum and now it's got to the point where getting behind the gun is getting too painful and my doctor says shooting anything is discouraged until they figure out what they can do to fix it.

From John Hopkins: The shoulder labrum is a thick piece of tissue attached to the rim of the shoulder socket that helps keep the ball of the joint in place.

[JS11B]

Not a bad time to make yourself an expert on your injury, a doctor may refer you to a overenthusiastic physical therapist which may make it worse. The idea is to make it as strong as possible, with physical therapy, by strengthening the support in that area, but find a balance. It can be done. Good luck.

[Gundiver]

Switch sides. Looks like you’ve accomplished many peoples bucket lists so now do them LEFTY.

[Garv]

.22 short/L/LR?

[Fjold]

Originally Posted by Gundiver

Switch sides. Looks like you’ve accomplished many peoples bucket lists so now do them LEFTY.

I am a lefty and I shoot at about 90% right handed. The doc doesn't want me to take the repeated recoil to the shoulder joint left handed and I can't support myself on my left elbow when I shoot prone.

Originally Posted by Garv

.22 short/L/LR?

The 22lr won't stay supersonic at 1,000 yards.

[Garv]

Originally Posted by Fjold

The 22lr won't stay supersonic at 1,000 yards.

Sorry, I missed the subforum title.

[RandyD]

I finally went to the Dr. today and got my left shoulder X-Rayed. I can still shoot a rifle, but lifting a coffee cup in certain directions is next to impossible. OP, I hope you have a quick recovery. I am waiting for my results, they aren't instantaneous when you use the VA.

[NaClAddict]

I just had a grade 2 SLAP labral tear repaired. PT wasn’t doing a thing for me. Doc said I was risking further injury which would not repair as well, 95% recovery v unknown 60-80% recovery. 6 months later and I’m about 90 % recovered.

[Switchbarrel]

I haven't shot them but, it's my understanding they have an "F-Bench" class at the Sac. Valley Club F-class matches. That allows us old geezers who can't tolerate the position or get down on the ground (more likely, can't get up off the ground very easily) still get out and shoot/compete sitting at a bench. In a different class I assume.

Does your club offer anything like that? Depending upon what rules your club follows, A ~22# F-Class 6 BRA/Dasher, etc. doesn't kick much at all, yet still competitive. I shot my Dashers exclusively in the BR Nationals 3 months after my rotator cuff repair.

Just a thought.
-Rick

[Fjold]

I could shoot the 22-250AI from a bench but then I have to haul the bench back and forth to the range and then to the 1,000 yard line or ask someone else to do it for me.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by Fjold

Well, it looks like I'm going to be off shooting for a bit while the doctors try to figure what to do with an old Labral tear in my left (shooting) shoulder. Apparently years ago I damaged my labrum and now it's got to the point where getting behind the gun is getting too painful and my doctor says shooting anything is discouraged until they figure out what they can do to fix it.

From John Hopkins: The shoulder labrum is a thick piece of tissue attached to the rim of the shoulder socket that helps keep the ball of the joint in place.

Labram surgery is no joke.
My wife tore her hip's labrum in a car accident several years ago and had surgery to repair it.
She is STILL not fully recovered from it.

[thegiff]

I have a labrum tear from my shoulder dislocation. I've since dislocated my shoulder four more times. Last time was last week, reaching across my pickup to grab a bottle of water. I'm going to ask my surgeon about repairing it because it is really debilitating.

[Garand Hunter]

Prayers for your shoulder's needs Bro. I have a banged up rotator cuff in my right shoulder from a fall in Wyoming in a wash with a 98 Mauser on my shoulder when I fell. No issues with it shooting, 22lr thru 7mmRem Mag.

Psalm 1

[liber]

Fjold,

Was curious if you've looked at the 224 Valkyrie ???

I've read it's half the recoil as the 6.5 Creedmoor which is substantially less than the 308 Win.

Could this 224 Valkyrie be a solution for your shoulder? Or better stated might be could a cartridge like that HELP, I don't think it will cure your shoulder tissue.

Sure seems promising with shooters fetching past 2000 yards...quite amazing for 25 grains of powder to me. I must be missing something, this 224 Valkyrie seems too good to be true.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by liber

Fjold,

Was curious if you've looked at the 224 Valkyrie ???

He has a fast twist 22-250 that I chambered for him.
The 224 Valkrie tries to be a 22-250 for 2.25" OAL limited actions.

[liber]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

He has a fast twist 22-250 that I chambered for him.
The 224 Valkrie tries to be a 22-250 for 2.25" OAL limited actions.

Doesn't the 22-250 use quite a bit more powder for the average load?

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by liber

Doesn't the 22-250 use quite a bit more powder for the average load?

About 25% more case capacity.
That's why it makes so much more velocity.

Why use a 2.25" cartridge in a 2.8" magazine and action?

Valkrie only has about 10% more powder capacity than 223.
Might as well just go 223 Ackley.

[liber]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

About 25% more case capacity.
That's why it makes so much more velocity.

Why use a 2.25" cartridge in a 2.8" magazine and action?

Valkrie only has about 10% more powder capacity than 223.
Might as well just go 223 Ackley.

Are those 223 Ackley fetching beyond 2000 yards? For 10% more powder than my 5.56 that's quite a difference in reach. Maybe my 5.56 loads are way off...

Any way we slice or dice it, more powder often translates to more recoil, and was just mentioning 224 Valkyrie to Frank, I didn't know you had made him a 22-250 rifle, not that it would matter...I have to imagine if he can't shoot it, the recoil must be too much for his shoulder. I was thinking maybe that will allow him to get some seat time...

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by liber

Are those 223 Ackley fetching beyond 2000 yards?

If the Valkrie is, then the Ackley would too because you can run the Ackley at 7,000 psi higher pressure than the Valkrie which will get you more velocity than the Valkrie even though the Valkrie has 1gr more powder capacity than the Ackley.
The Valkrie has to run a lower pressure due to the larger case head diameter.

Here is a quickload comparison of the 224valkrie to the 223Ackley and 5.56x45 using the same bullets, same OAL, same barrel length at each cartridge's maximum pressure and letting quickload choose the top 5 powders to make the most velocity:

Cartridge          : .223 Ackley Imp
Bullet             : .224, 77, Sierra TMK #7177
Useable Case Capaci: 25.584 grain H2O = 1.661 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm
Barrel Length      : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 62000 psi, or 427 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 102 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

58 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 80%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Winchester 748                      98.3     25.0     1.62    2872    99.6    62000    9022   0.960  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon BL-C2                      100.8     25.9     1.68    2868    99.0    62000    9260   0.968  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 2520                      101.2     25.2     1.63    2850    99.8    62000    8795   0.977  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot Wild Boar                  100.8     25.4     1.65    2845    98.0    62000    9115   0.966  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant AR-Comp *C *T              101.8     23.2     1.51    2839   100.0    62000    7944   0.965  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Cartridge          : .224 Valkrie
Bullet             : .224, 77, Sierra TMK #7177
Useable Case Capaci: 28.674 grain H2O = 1.862 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm
Barrel Length      : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 55000 psi, or 379 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 102 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

69 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 80%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hodgdon CFE223 *C                   98.6     28.4     1.84    2846    96.8    55000   10141   1.013  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan SP 11                  101.7     27.8     1.80    2842    97.9    55000    9984   1.015  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot Big Game                    98.5     27.7     1.80    2836    97.8    55000    9884   1.015  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4895                            97.8     25.9     1.68    2830    98.1    55000    9915   1.027  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-17 *T              102.0     28.3     1.83    2830    97.6    50802   10490   1.040  ! Near Maximum !

Cartridge          : 5.56 mm NATO - 5.56 x 45 mm
Bullet             : .224, 77, Sierra TMK #7177
Useable Case Capaci: 23.087 grain H2O = 1.499 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm
Barrel Length      : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 62000 psi, or 427 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 102 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

58 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 80%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Winchester 748                     101.8     23.3     1.51    2816    99.1    62000    8427   0.957  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H335                        96.7     22.5     1.45    2775    99.7    62000    8028   0.966  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan SP 10                   96.3     21.9     1.42    2772    99.7    62000    8001   0.969  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N530 *C                 102.0     21.8     1.41    2763    98.4    61718    8156   0.969  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H322                       102.0     21.1     1.37    2759   100.0    60922    7785   0.970  ! Near Maximum !

[ShaunBrady]

Originally Posted by liber

Are those 223 Ackley fetching beyond 2000 yards? For 10% more powder than my 5.56 that's quite a difference in reach. Maybe my 5.56 loads are way off...

I have a 26" 1:7 223 RPR I use for cheap practice. The load I'm using gives 3050 fps for a 75 grain ELDm. For the conditions in that video, it needs 2.3 mils more to get to 2111 yards at the conditions in the video. It's a 223 Wylde chamber with the freebore lengthened to take advantage of AICS magazines. There is nothing new or original about this, it's old news.

The 224 Valkyrie loads in the video are 200 fps faster than advertised factory ammo. 50-60 fps of that is the 26" barrel rather than the 24" SAAMI uses, the rest must come from pressure. Running it through QL, the Valkyrie video load has a slightly higher peak pressure than my 223 load.

Case capacities are great, but what matters is the remaining case capacity after the bullet is seated. The Valkyrie starts off with more but loses ground when the bullets are seated out because the case is shorter than the 223.

Substituting the 88 grain ELDm for the 75 in my load and adding powder until it reaches the Valkyrie video pressure, the 223 comes up 30 fps short and only requires 1.3 mils more to reach 2111 yards.

The 224 Valkyrie can cover the ballistics of a long bullet 223 that uses an AICS magazine from an AR magazine. But only if it uses pressures higher than an AR will take and has the same barrel length as the bolt gun. Remove the AR magazine constraint and there really isn't much of a point.

It's just not worth building a special bolt gun requiring an obscure bolt face to do something that isn't really going to work most days anyway.

Originally Posted by liber

I was thinking maybe that will allow him to get some seat time...

What you did was pass on information that you didn't vet. It's common. You also didn't qualify the customer. I would assume Fjold already knows what happens when you remove the AR magazine limitation from 223. It's called F-TR. Arguing the finer points of 223 with Randall also wasn't great situational awareness.

The first clue should have been the 36 mil firing solution at a 6000' DA. I've shot that RPR to a mile, but it's a stunt and not really practice. For reference, at the video range and conditions, a 6.5cm would need ~30 mils, my 26" 300 PRC handloads ~22 mils, a 375CT ~ 17 mils. Those are all real loads I've either loaded myself and shot past 2K or seen the LabRadar data as they shot.

The URSA NorCal range isn't far from you. I suggest attending one of their matches as a spectator before you build a 22 caliber 2K gun. The first round is at 2050 yards and the DA is ~1000' lower than the video, so the firing solutions will be similar. You'll be able to see what a 3' target really looks like at that distance and have a better sense of what a 223 strike will look like.

[sealocan]

Get well soon. Health is so important and we forget that when we're feeling good.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by ShaunBrady

I have a 26" 1:7 223 RPR I use for cheap practice. The load I'm using gives 3050 fps for a 75 grain ELDm. For the conditions in that video, it needs 2.3 mils more to get to 2111 yards at the conditions in the video. It's a 223 Wylde chamber with the freebore lengthened to take advantage of AICS magazines. There is nothing new or original about this, it's old news.

One of my precision rifle match guns has a 223 wylde chambered 24" barrel and I use most of the OAL that an AICS mag will allow.
I shoot it out to 600 but beyond that, you just don't get reliable enough energy on steel for the spotters to call the hits.
I have lost many points even as close as 200m where the spotters refused to call my hit even when there was an audible ding and no dirt splash so I quit using it in matches.
The longer seating length of the AI mag about equals out what an Ackley will do at 2.25" oal.
I really ought to ackley or even 222mag AI that gun.
It would really come alive.

Cartridge          : .222 Rem. Mag. Improved
Bullet             : .224, 75, Hornady A-MAX 22792
Useable Case Capaci: 27.975 grain H2O = 1.816 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.500 inch = 63.50 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 62000 psi, or 427 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 102 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

59 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 80%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Winchester 748                      96.1     26.7     1.73    3057   100.0    62000    7736   1.057  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon BL-C2                       98.5     27.7     1.80    3057    99.8    62000    7992   1.065  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H4895                      100.4     25.9     1.68    3042    99.5    62000    7903   1.066  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot Wild Boar                   98.7     27.2     1.76    3036    99.2    62000    7914   1.062  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Shooters World Match Rifle         101.2     26.9     1.74    3032   100.0    62000    7508   1.075  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

[sigstroker]

Would a Lead Sled type of thing work?

[liber]

ShaunBrady,

You're convincing me to just go Lapua 338, so far my shoulder is ok. ELR is only once a month.

Cheers,

[JS11B]

Originally Posted by thegiff

I have a labrum tear from my shoulder dislocation. I've since dislocated my shoulder four more times. Last time was last week, reaching across my pickup to grab a bottle of water. I'm going to ask my surgeon about repairing it because it is really debilitating.

Once those tendons/ligaments get stretched, they don’t always go back. That’s why the continual dislocating/instability. Not the same thing, but I have this happening in my knee, extremely difficult mobility. Good luck

[Fjold]

The recoil issue is just part of the problem. I can't support myself properly shooting left or right (worse) handed on the bad shoulder and getting into and out of the prone position is an issue.

I've had X-rays and MRIs and am in physical therapy now trying to regain some strength and range of motion while they evaluate it for surgery.

I have some travel out of state and out of the country scheduled in the next month and a half so I don't have my next Dr. appointment until June 21st.