Morality, Religion and Atheism

[CVShooter]

Originally Posted by Wheellock

A couple of you questioned what morals and judgements are common across the globe and what is more regional culture. If you want to do a little reading on that subject, I have a book recommendation:

The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion
by Jonathan Haidt

https://www.amazon.com/Righteous-Min.../dp/0307455777

Fantastic book!

[theLBC]

Originally Posted by kelvin232

Morality can't exist amongst believers.

To do good when you don't believe that someone is always watching you, ready to reward or punish you based on your behavior, is the only truth of morality.

If you believe in a higher power, you have never done anything moral or selfless. You've just been trying to get the right answers on a test, proctored by whatever deity your parents taught you was in charge.

i don't care what motivates people to be good vs evil.
as i already said, god, or the desire to be good, lives inside you (or doesn't).
if you need to attach this desire to help others to some supernatural being, i am not going to argue. it has worked ok so far.

there is no doubt that religion is on the decline in america, and if you cannot put two and two together when you look at the deviant society we have become, than you are really bad at critical thinking.

[IVC]

Originally Posted by theLBC

there is no doubt that religion is on the decline in america, ...

Traditional religion is on the decline, but the atheists today are as religious as anyone has ever been - they have their set of beliefs that they try to codify in the law (plastic bags, straws, global warming, climate change, etc.) and they will treat with the full religious intolerance anyone who disagrees with the *spirit* of the laws that encompass their core religious beliefs.

Remember the ousted head of the CA DFW? He did a fully legal mountain lion hunt in another state, but was pushed out because he didn't "match the values" that the CA law was trying to impose.

This is actually the core of the thread - without traditional religion, there is a vacuum for moral and ethical authority, so people pick up the cues from their surrounding without even understanding they are accepting a set of arbitrary rules. That's how wokeness and SJW operate... With a jihadists' convictions.

[CVShooter]

Originally Posted by IVC

Traditional religion is on the decline, but the atheists today are as religious as anyone has ever been - they have their set of beliefs that they try to codify in the law (plastic bags, straws, global warming, climate change, etc.) and they will treat with the full religious intolerance anyone who disagrees with the *spirit* of the laws that encompass their core religious beliefs.

Remember the ousted head of the CA DFW? He did a fully legal mountain lion hunt in another state, but was pushed out because he didn't "match the values" that the CA law was trying to impose.

This is actually the core of the thread - without traditional religion, there is a vacuum for moral and ethical authority, so people pick up the cues from their surrounding without even understanding they are accepting a set of arbitrary rules. That's how wokeness and SJW operate... With a jihadists' convictions.

Interesting point, to be sure. Though religion itself also picks up cues from the culture, as evidenced by the myriad of religions, denominations/orders/persuasions within religions, etc. It reminds me of Niebuhr's CHRIST AND CULTURE. I don't recall all of the details anymore but the gist is that various Christians and groups within Christianity define Christ differently -- some as a countercultural figure, some as an embodiment of their culture, some as something apart & above their culture, etc.

On a more historical level, there were sects within Judaism that held YHWH as the divine masculine with Asherah, the divine feminine as his consort. Minority and unorthodox, to be sure. But prevalent enough to be a notable part of the historical landscape. "Idolatry," Asherah poles, outdoor worship, etc. were a source of constant frustration by the religious elites and prophets in the Biblical text. The politicians (royalty) had to be more pragmatic. People do what people do.

But without a single, unifiying belief system, is there a scary "vacuum?" Maybe -- if you find that kind of thing scary. The Romans didn't really have a state religion as we tend to think of it. It was really the state/emperor as the main figure but lots of freedom within that. A lot of American Christians wouldn't say that we worship the state. But the way that they talk about "The Founding Fathers," their wisdom, their benevolence, the sacredness of the Constitution (not "a" constitution but "the" Constitution) certainly lead me to believe that they're fooling themselves in that regard. I certainly don't mind that we don't have a single, overriding belief system here (other than our state religion). We're actually way more conservative as a society than a lot of other developed countries anyway -- including Israel! Go figure. I'm happy to live in a religiously pluralistic country where we have no official religion, my beliefs are nobody else's business but mine and no group of "wise" men get to determine what my religious truth will be.

Morality, ethics, etc. are still best described by Hillel "Whatever is hateful to you, don't do to others. The rest is just commentary." Pure genius!

[theLBC]

Originally Posted by CVShooter

Morality, ethics, etc. are still best described by Hillel "Whatever is hateful to you, don't do to others. The rest is just commentary." Pure genius!

do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Luke 6:31

[Kokopelli]

Originally Posted by theLBC

do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Luke 6:31

That is best understood in the full context of Luke 6:27-36

Love for Enemies

“But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.

“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

[theLBC]

Originally Posted by Kokopelli

That is best understood in the full context of Luke 6:27-36

i was citing the golden rule for perspective.

what goes around comes around, karma or whatever you want to call it...
if there is no "justice" in the afterlife (or next life), it would only be natural to want to get justice in this life for every infraction against you...
it is really a fundamental way of how we think, otherwise we wouldn't tolerate the existence on this planet of scumbags like....
we put their fate "in god's hands", because if we couldn't, we would be in prison for taking the law into our own hands.

[IVC]

Originally Posted by CVShooter

But without a single, unifiying belief system, is there a scary "vacuum?" Maybe -- if you find that kind of thing scary.

Vacuum and alternate belief systems are not scary by themselves, it's the ignorance of the vacuum being filled with arbitrary small ideas (e.g., wokeness, language/word redefinition, ban on disagreements, erasing history, etc.) that is somewhat scary, and it's the inability of people whose vacuum is being filled with junk to recognize that others don't share their values and ideas that is really scary.

I'm not scared of Jehovah's Witnesses who want to convert me, or Amish who want to be left alone, but I am scared of the NY/CA politicians who have the means and the willingness to destroy those who don't share their religion (their value system).

All I want to be able to say is: "I don't share your views, I don't share your definition of moral and immoral, I want to be left alone with my views and values." A simple example being "same sex marriage" - if the state issues a paper/document to a same sex couple, it's really none of my business, but forcing me to use the word "marriage" or forcing me to celebrate it is no different from any religious intolerance, even if it's forced upon me under the guise of some new virtue of "tolerance," or "love" (where we are all supposed to be full of love except that we hate those who disagree with us because we convinced ourselves those who disagree with us actually hate us, and hating the haters is a virtue too - the usual "pretzel logic" argument).

Originally Posted by CVShooter

A lot of American Christians wouldn't say that we worship the state. But the way that they talk about "The Founding Fathers," their wisdom, their benevolence, the sacredness of the Constitution (not "a" constitution but "the" Constitution) certainly lead me to believe that they're fooling themselves in that regard.

"The" Constitution is essentially embodiment of the core Christian values and principles with enough latitude to accommodate any other set of moral values that are not grossly inconsistent with the core of Christianity.

Any Christian would look at the Constitution and see it as the legal minimum for a functioning moral society. There is no worship of the Constitution, there is gladness that the foundation laid in it allows for a society that is consistent with Christian values and which precludes the priests and clergy from hijacking the controls of the society.

Originally Posted by CVShooter

I'm happy to live in a religiously pluralistic country where we have no official religion, my beliefs are nobody else's business but mine and no group of "wise" men get to determine what my religious truth will be.

You don't live in such a pluralistic country, that's the problem.

When we have politicians, especially in the NYC or CA, talk about moral indignation about something or something else by using phrases such as "this is not who we are," or "this is not what we stand for," you can bet your bottom dollar that they are not only assuming that there IS an official, enforceable value system in the country (a single, dominant, "urban atheist religion"), but also that there is no room for discourse on these values that they adopted out of the vacuum. The "deplorables" is a newspeak for "heretics," yet virtually none on the left noticed it as such.

The left lost their mind when government switched control to Trump because they lost their religion, not because Trump had different views on economy or energy independence.

/rant (I need to take a break from this thread )

[Barang]

Originally Posted by theLBC

i was citing the golden rule for perspective.

what goes around comes around, karma or whatever you want to call it...
if there is no "justice" in the afterlife (or next life), it would only be natural to want to get justice in this life for every infraction against you...
it is really a fundamental way of how we think, otherwise we wouldn't tolerate the existence on this planet of scumbags like....
we put their fate "in god's hands", because if we couldn't, we would be in prison for taking the law into our own hands.

Romans 12:17-19 New King James Version
17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have[a] regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

John 5:28-29 New King James Version
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

[theLBC]

Originally Posted by Barang

Romans 12:17-19 New King James Version
17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have[a] regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

John 5:28-29 New King James Version
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

thank you. exactly.
it is this foundation that allows the family of victims to find peace without vengeance.
honestly, i have never received the gift of faith, and i doubt i would find the ability to restrain myself.

[1911RONIN]

Originally Posted by theLBC

thank you. exactly.
it is this foundation that allows the family of victims to find peace without vengeance.
honestly, i have never received the gift of faith, and i doubt i would find the ability to restrain myself.

If you lack faith, ask God to give it to you. I understand the restraint issue, but grace is there to help with the journey. Being plugged into the Kingdom of God is beyond simple right/wrong living.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Barang]

Originally Posted by theLBC

honestly, i have never received the gift of faith, and i doubt i would find the ability to restrain myself.

you might be interested in reading lee strobel's conversion. he's an atheist, worked for chicago tribune.
lee's wife was agnostic until she converted to chistianity. he saw the changed in her behavior that led him to investigate/research about Jesus (i hope i'm getting this right ). this might help you find/put the faith in Him?

[theLBC]

Originally Posted by Barang

you might be interested in reading lee strobel's conversion. he's an atheist, worked for chicago tribune.
lee's wife was agnostic until she converted to chistianity. he saw the changed in her behavior that led him to investigate/research about Jesus (i hope i'm getting this right ). this might help you find/put the faith in Him?

i appreciate, support and defend religion or christian ideas quite a bit for somebody that doesn't consider himself religious. almost all the groups that volunteer at local crisis centers to feed the poor are organized by churches, despite the empty claims by atheists that they "give just as much".

i think i was jaded when my mom died (i was 12) because we were really active as a family in our parish charities and stuff.

[CVShooter]

Originally Posted by theLBC

do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Luke 6:31

The original (or maybe just the older) version, was written in the negative -- "Don't do unto others..." That is remarkably different than the Gospel's revision -- "Do unto others..."

In some respects, Jesus's version is far more demanding. You must do, not sit idly by. Kudos for boldness and action! But as many scholars have pointed out, it also lends itself to some serious problems, such as what happens when what I want isn't what you would want. We risk imposing our will and our wishes on others.

"I'm from the government and I'm here to help!" That's a classic case of the Golden Rule gone bad.

The "Silver Rule" is far more robust -- don't do. It may not create a better society. But it sure as sh&! keeps it from getting any worse.

[CVShooter]

Originally Posted by IVC

"The" Constitution is essentially embodiment of the core Christian values and principles with enough latitude to accommodate any other set of moral values that are not grossly inconsistent with the core of Christianity.

Any Christian would look at the Constitution and see it as the legal minimum for a functioning moral society. There is no worship of the Constitution, there is gladness that the foundation laid in it allows for a society that is consistent with Christian values and which precludes the priests and clergy from hijacking the controls of the society.

/rant (I need to take a break from this thread )

Wow! You proved my point much better than I could have if I really tried. Thank you.

I'll leave some of your other points alone. I have no problems with any person marrying anybody else -- the law shouldn't care either way, in my opinion. If 2 people (3 people, 10 people, whatever) want to be legally married, then fine -- I wish them all the happiness they can find. I've heard that some poly couples end up forming corporations rather than marriages to make it all work in the legal sphere. But that's all just legal gymnastics. The state shouldn't be in the business of determining what marriage is or isn't. Maintaining stable families, however they look, is a noble and worthwhile goal, I think. A lot of state resources are used in helping unstable families -- the state has a vested interest there.

Yes, we agree that the left is just as dogmatic in their beliefs as the right. We could bicker and argue about who started it but the fact remains that self-righteousness is a sickness that can infect any political, religious, economic or other philosophical system. Vanity is definitely our favorite sin.

[IVC]

Originally Posted by CVShooter

Yes, we agree that the left is just as dogmatic in their beliefs as the right.

The difference being that the left wants to convert others into submitting to their dogmas, while the right (now) understands that the goal is to be left alone, and that converting others is an affront to the freedom and civil liberties because others might not share the same value system.

We can agree that the left is at the point where the right was 100-150 years ago, where it was commonly understood that "freedom of religion" meant "freedom of Christian denomination" and where the local communities wanted to have control of the locally-accepted morality through the legal system. The right has long since stopped trying to codify their values in the law, so that they could tolerate and coexist with people they find immoral. The left, on the other hand, is at the point where they want to annihilate and destroy those who disagree, without even understanding they are involved in a religious purge.

The contemporary left uses the "logic" of "you disagree, therefore you're immoral, therefore you're deplorable and irredeemable, therefore you must be attacked everywhere at any time, therefore you should be eliminated from the society, therefore discrimination and dehumanization of you is not only acceptable, but keenly encouraged." Each one of these statements in one form or another was publicly pushed by a member of the left in very recent times.

[Barang]

Originally Posted by CVShooter

In some respects, Jesus's version is far more demanding. You must do, not sit idly by. Kudos for boldness and action! But as many scholars have pointed out, it also lends itself to some serious problems, such as what happens when what I want isn't what you would want. We risk imposing our will and our wishes on others.

"I'm from the government and I'm here to help!" That's a classic case of the Golden Rule gone bad.

except that Jesus is not forcing individual (not government) against their will. it isn't "what i want " but what is according to His Word. you are free to ignore or follow His golden rule. His Word is always available (when in doubt - check the Bible) so that it is consistent according to His teachings.

[Barang]

Originally Posted by theLBC

i appreciate, support and defend religion or christian ideas quite a bit for somebody that doesn't consider himself religious. almost all the groups that volunteer at local crisis centers to feed the poor are organized by churches, despite the empty claims by atheists that they "give just as much".

i think i was jaded when my mom died (i was 12) because we were really active as a family in our parish charities and stuff.

truly sorry about your mom. i can understand how one's faith can be shaken in times like that.

short story about my my wife's cousin who was/is pastor and his wife been trying to conceive for 7 years. they got what they wished for, gave birth to two sons (3 years apart).

tragically, the 21 years old son died while in a hotel and the 17 years old son also died in the same year while in the class room. both healthy and they just suddenly dropped dead. the dad blamed God and lost his faith.

i will not judge nor condemn anyone who's in this situation. i get it and very understandable. death will eventually come to all of us who are living, but there are scriptures that are helpful, reassuring and the hope we believers are waiting for a better life (everlasting). we will be reunited and see our departed loved ones once again in a place where there is no pain and suffering anymore, a place created by God for His children.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 New King James Version

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

John 16:33 New King James Version

33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you [a]will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

[CVShooter]

Originally Posted by IVC

The difference being that the left wants to convert others into submitting to their dogmas, while the right (now) understands that the goal is to be left alone, and that converting others is an affront to the freedom and civil liberties because others might not share the same value system.

We can agree that the left is at the point where the right was 100-150 years ago, where it was commonly understood that "freedom of religion" meant "freedom of Christian denomination" and where the local communities wanted to have control of the locally-accepted morality through the legal system. The right has long since stopped trying to codify their values in the law, so that they could tolerate and coexist with people they find immoral. The left, on the other hand, is at the point where they want to annihilate and destroy those who disagree, without even understanding they are involved in a religious purge.

The contemporary left uses the "logic" of "you disagree, therefore you're immoral, therefore you're deplorable and irredeemable, therefore you must be attacked everywhere at any time, therefore you should be eliminated from the society, therefore discrimination and dehumanization of you is not only acceptable, but keenly encouraged." Each one of these statements in one form or another was publicly pushed by a member of the left in very recent times.

So you think the right is somehow more "woke" to their dogmatic behaviors than the left? Oh, man -- that's rich!

[CVShooter]

Originally Posted by Barang

except that Jesus is not forcing individual (not government) against their will. it isn't "what i want " but what is according to His Word. you are free to ignore or follow His golden rule. His Word is always available (when in doubt - check the Bible) so that it is consistent according to His teachings.

Really? So all that BS Jesus spouted about the destruction of those who don't agree with him was just hot air -- he didn't really mean it? Seems about as free to make a decision as a robbery victim is -- yea, you can refuse, I suppose. But it isn't exactly freedom, is it?

Truth-seeking and apologetics aren't the same thing. Try the former.

[radioburning]

Morality is birthed from empathy, which is inherent in nature. Studies show infants have empathy, even though they have never been exposed to religious doctrine.

Rats show empathy…

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2011.9603

[IVC]

Originally Posted by CVShooter

So you think the right is somehow more "woke" to their dogmatic behaviors than the left? Oh, man -- that's rich!

Not woke at all, just been enough through the legal system that overturned morality-based laws, from sodomy to state-endorsed religious curriculum in schools.

The left is now going through the similar phase, where what they call "woke" (and I call "bigoted" and "racist") laws are being challenged in the courts and stricken down as discriminatory. Racial discrimination in college admissions, segregation by race and sexual orientation in housing and on campus, biological males competing against females and setting collegiate records, you name it. Also, notice how the left is losing their mind every time they lose in court, claiming that the society will end unless it embraces their value system and unless courts allow them to force it on others because, you know, they really believe it's the best for everyone.

What was the last morality-based law passed by the right that has been stricken down or litigated and how long ago was it? Compare to what's going on with the left's unconstitutional agenda right now.

[IVC]

Speaking of "left vs. right," also notice that the left's anti-gun stance is an emotional and moral issue to them. They don't care about science, they don't care about rights, they see guns and armed self-defense as immoral and that is what they will pass as the law.

Cue the left's meltdown when we get the ruling from the NY carry case from SCOTUS, where it will be crystal clear ruling with no contentious interpretation, yet the left will lose it because their perceived danger and inappropriateness of the guns in the modern society (religious belief) trumps anything one can reason with them.

[IVC]

Originally Posted by CVShooter

Really? So all that BS Jesus spouted about the destruction of those who don't agree with him was just hot air -- he didn't really mean it? Seems about as free to make a decision as a robbery victim is -- yea, you can refuse, I suppose. But it isn't exactly freedom, is it?

Truth-seeking and apologetics aren't the same thing. Try the former.

People are free not to be Christians, people are not free not to be controlled by the government that we have in place. But you knew that...

[Barang]

Originally Posted by CVShooter

Really? So all that BS Jesus spouted about the destruction of those who don't agree with him was just hot air -- he didn't really mean it? Seems about as free to make a decision as a robbery victim is -- yea, you can refuse, I suppose. But it isn't exactly freedom, is it?

Truth-seeking and apologetics aren't the same thing. Try the former.

people have free will. free will to reject, to follow or whatever they want or not to do. Jesus or government, you live the life however you want it. violate the law, suffer the consequences, that's your choice!

[CVShooter]

Originally Posted by IVC

Not woke at all, just been enough through the legal system that overturned morality-based laws, from sodomy to state-endorsed religious curriculum in schools.

The left is now going through the similar phase, where what they call "woke" (and I call "bigoted" and "racist") laws are being challenged in the courts and stricken down as discriminatory. Racial discrimination in college admissions, segregation by race and sexual orientation in housing and on campus, biological males competing against females and setting collegiate records, you name it. Also, notice how the left is losing their mind every time they lose in court, claiming that the society will end unless it embraces their value system and unless courts allow them to force it on others because, you know, they really believe it's the best for everyone.

What was the last morality-based law passed by the right that has been stricken down or litigated and how long ago was it? Compare to what's going on with the left's unconstitutional agenda right now.

You're clearly telling yourself a story here. Among the themes in your story is some kind of right-wing progression and left-wing regression. It's oft-repeated in the right-wing media. Believe that story if you want. But I don't buy it for a second.

The pendulum swings. The harder you push it one way, the harder it will swing back the other. The only way to keep it sane & tempered is to stop pushing it -- let it settle down. But people see things swing hard in a direction they don't like and they can't help but push it back with all their emotional, political and religious energy. If you don't like the left's craziness, stop promoting right craziness. It just pushes everybody into craziness instead of settling down.

[IVC]

Originally Posted by CVShooter

You're clearly telling yourself a story here. Among the themes in your story is some kind of right-wing progression and left-wing regression. It's oft-repeated in the right-wing media. Believe that story if you want. But I don't buy it for a second.

If you didn't buy that the Earth was spinning it wouldn't stop it from spinning.

I gave you very specific examples and made claims related to those examples, without any narrative, media references or stories. It seems that you're the one listening to the media (because I certainly don't, right, center or left) and making ad-hoc statements.

[MonkeyMind]

Does any act exist inherently as anything?
Is it morally acceptable to murder someone who is about to blow up a busload of kittens?

[theLBC]

Originally Posted by MonkeyMind

Does any act exist inherently as anything?
Is it morally acceptable to murder someone who is about to blow up a busload of kittens?

you already called it murder.
perhaps your question is whether humans are inherently more valuable than kittens.
up until recently, i probably would have said yes, but i am unsure now seeing the behavior of the current crop of "humans".

[DB>]

Relativism is easy when you play with the definitions of words... "kill" and
"murder" are traditionally distinct concepts, but if you muddle them up, you can justify all sorts of mischief.

We have many favorite "sins", but the one that kills us is the belief that "we can be like god".

Knowing good and evil and making the right choices is hard sometimes, but with faith, humility, and patience, we get better at it. Loving others as God first loved us (never figured out what He sees in humans, honestly, but I'm getting better at it... I hope) is the key, and as Paul once described, one has to wake up every day and struggle with our own human nature to sort it out and overcome sinful urges and tendencies... our natural state.