Evangelical churches and the pro-mask, pro-Vax narrative

[steadyrock]

Reading this well done article broke a piece of my heart. My family were members of Saddleback Church for nearly 20 years, my wife was on staff there for over 10 of those. I was baptized there, and most of my kids were as well. The place was like home (and is in fact the reason we chose to live where we do, not far from it). We left shortly after COVID hit, when we saw a lot of the things this article mentions being put into place. We heard the messaging, we saw Rick blatantly misquoting scripture in his video messages (because he shut down any in-person interaction for nearly a year), and thankfully God tugged at us and said “This isn’t right for you anymore. You belong somewhere else” and led us to a wonderful church a little ways down the freeway.

This article exposes very clearly how the NIH co-opted influential evangelical figures to be a mouthpiece for the shutdown, quarantine, vax, and mask narrative. Rick Warren, among others, is directly quoted here. It’s a bit lengthy but 100% worth the read. Incredibly sad to see how so-called influential church “leaders” (even Billy Graham’s name) have abused their trust and their positions either to repay a favor to the globalists, or to curry it.

The entire 20 years we were at Saddleback, I always said that as soon as Rick intentionally abused Scripture we’d leave, even if it was in the middle of a sermon. That day finally came for us about two years ago, and reading this only reaffirms that choice.


How The Federal Government Used Evangelical Leaders To Spread Covid Propaganda To Churches

https://www.dailywire.com/news/how-t...da-to-churches


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[Barang]

“Wearing a mask is the great commandment: love your neighbor as yourself,” the best-selling author of “The Purpose-Driven Life” declared,

[steadyrock]

^ Yeah. I have the email he sent out that said that. It was unbelievable. I think we had left by that time.


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[theLBC]

sad

[Red-Osier]

Romans 16:16-19

[PogoJack]

Thank you for this revelation. I think shutting down was even more egregious than pro-vax/pro-mask narrative and would like more information about that, but they go hand in hand.

It’s sad that influential Christian scholars are lending themselves as conduits of woke pro-infanticide demons who lecture Christians to love their neighbor by getting the clot shot.

It is obvious that there is a spiritual warfare element to Covid and I feel bad for the pastors who are tickling peoples ears and placed approval from unbelievers over the call to meet in Hebrews 10:24-25.

Our church in AZ was not shut down, but our former church in CA was early on, due to the policies of the Congregational church where they met, and to this day only meets every other week.

Our church in AZ though it remained open, initially and permanently lost some 20-30% membership, no Covid deaths though our median age must be 50. Amazingly, our giving increased in 2020 and 2021 and our membership increased with new people who left lukewarm and woke churches. We saw another salty church go from 2 services to 6 and had to plant other churches to handle the increased. Same story.

There were many, especially non-Christians that were using Romans 13 to enjoin Christians from meeting but John MacArthur pointed out that in Romans 13:3 it states that one should submit to rulers “for they are not a terror to good conduct but to bad”.

It follows that rulers such as in California, with their overwhelming prioritizing of criminality, are not the rulers described in Romans 13.

[GM4spd]

Originally Posted by Barang

“Wearing a mask is the great commandment: love your neighbor as yourself,” the best-selling author of “The Purpose-Driven Life” declared,

As a member of the church,I missed that quote when it came out. I know that “ loving your neighbor “ is certainly Biblical ——-the rest not so much. I’m havingmy own personal issues with his teaching especially as it relates to the using “ The Message” Bible as a reference for Gods word. When the words “ our daily bread” are replaced with “give us three square meals” in the Lords Prayer,something is really wrong. I was in church on Sunday Jan.9andthought I was hearing wrong when he uttered the phrase “everything sucks”. When the sermon appeared on utube I played it and that’ exactlywhathe said. I have never heard a priest,pastor,or minister use that terminology anywhere in or out of church.

[Barang]

gub telling us what's best and force its way into people's lives when not followed voluntarily. yeah! i call that brotherly love. pathetic!

Acts 5:29 New King James Version
But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 New King James Version
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body [a]and in your spirit, which are God’s.

[steadyrock]

What saddens me so much here is not just that this happened at Saddleback, I saw that coming but held out hopeful that I was wrong (you don't get invited to give the invocation at Obama's first inauguration, get invited to speak at Klaus Schwab's WEF twice, and brag to your church that you are a member of the Council on Foreign Relations without owing the globalists some payback). What makes this so much worse to me is that it appears to have happened to a significant share of the overall evangelical church apparatus in America. We tend to look at churches in Europe and make passing remarks about them being "dead", but how did they get there? Infiltration by the enemy is everywhere. It appears that a big and influential portion of the church in America is just walking dead, and millions are being deceived.

1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

The enemy has been feasting on us and we don't even know it.

[Garand Hunter]

I will pass on commenting on Rick Warren other than to say, seemed obvious to me years before the covid china bug, that Warren had gone sideways. With the selling out to wokeness etc described in this thread, I agree with the direction this thread is going. I refused to participate in ANY outdoors church services and or on line services. When it was obvious to our pastor to get the doors open and NO thou shalt mask up nonsense I went back into real fellowhip until we left Cali for Tennessee. If you are fearful and afraid, stay home fits here.

Psalm 1

[2761377]

wearing a mask in church signals the same thing as carrying concealed in church-

weak/no Christian faith

[steadyrock]

Originally Posted by 2761377

wearing a mask in church signals the same thing as carrying concealed in church-

weak/no Christian faith

That's a real stretch IMO.

[psssniper]

Originally Posted by 2761377

wearing a mask in church signals the same thing as carrying concealed in church-weak/no Christian faith

Tell that to all the christians that have been shot in a church.

Guess their faith was weak eh kinda like the people that pray for healing and they aren’t healed, weak faith!!

[billvau]

Ouch. Thanks for sharing.

I never saw Rick Warren properly handling scripture from day one.

Sad.

[Yodaman]

Originally Posted by steadyrock

Reading this well done article broke a piece of my heart. My family were members of Saddleback Church for nearly 20 years, my wife was on staff there for over 10 of those. I was baptized there, and most of my kids were as well. The place was like home (and is in fact the reason we chose to live where we do, not far from it). We left shortly after COVID hit, when we saw a lot of the things this article mentions being put into place. We heard the messaging, we saw Rick blatantly misquoting scripture in his video messages (because he shut down any in-person interaction for nearly a year), and thankfully God tugged at us and said “This isn’t right for you anymore. You belong somewhere else” and led us to a wonderful church a little ways down the freeway.

This article exposes very clearly how the NIH co-opted influential evangelical figures to be a mouthpiece for the shutdown, quarantine, vax, and mask narrative. Rick Warren, among others, is directly quoted here. It’s a bit lengthy but 100% worth the read. Incredibly sad to see how so-called influential church “leaders” (even Billy Graham’s name) have abused their trust and their positions either to repay a favor to the globalists, or to curry it.

The entire 20 years we were at Saddleback, I always said that as soon as Rick intentionally abused Scripture we’d leave, even if it was in the middle of a sermon. That day finally came for us about two years ago, and reading this only reaffirms that choice.


How The Federal Government Used Evangelical Leaders To Spread Covid Propaganda To Churches

https://www.dailywire.com/news/how-t...da-to-churches


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rick Warren has always twisted scripture to fit his needs. That was The Who basis for Saddleback church. That being said, God can use anyone. If he can use Balam's *** he can use any.... one


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[pbsmind]

I think the church I attend handle the whole mask thing well. It’s not too far from Saddleback, check it out: https://www.foothillschurchrsm.com/

[Kokopelli]

Originally Posted by billvau

Ouch. Thanks for sharing.

I never saw Rick Warren properly handling scripture from day one.

Sad.

When I heard him, he used "The Message" translation of the Bible.

I've been to Saddleback a few times for week long worship conferences. But that was back when Rick Muchow was the WL. My niece was baprized at Saddleback and got involved with international missions before she moved to Arizona.

Maybe Warren has alsheimers?

From the linked article:

“Let me just say a word to the priests and pastors and rabbis and other faith leaders,” he said. “This is our job, to deal with these conspiracy issues and things like that…One of the responsibilities of faith leaders is to tell people to…trust the science. They’re not going to put out a vaccine that’s going to hurt people.”

^ I could not find a citation for Warren saying that using Google or Bing. Was it in some email Warren sent out?

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Kokopelli

When I heard him, he used "The Message" translation of the Bible.

I've been to Saddleback a few times for week long worship conferences. But that was back when Rick Muchow was the WL. My niece was baprized at Saddleback and got involved with international missions before she moved to Arizona.

Maybe Warren has alsheimers?

From the linked article:



^ I could not find a citation for Warren saying that using Google or Bing. Was it in some email Warren sent out?

I got my biggest (actually, saddest) laugh from Warren years ago when Southern California had one of their huge Santa Ana fires and many lost their homes. TV was showing some of these folks grieving, even crying over their lost homes.

Warren's comment was that losing their homes was a blessing in disguise because "Blessed are those who mourn..." Matt. 5:4. I think I screamed loudly at his blatant mis-interpretation of Scripture and saddened to think that their might be some that would believe that God would take their home just so that they would mourn and then be blessed for mourning (over the loss of an earthly thing that will be burned up anyhow!).

His "Purpose-driven" life not only doesn't give the full gospel (on the positive part, not the sin part), but pushes people away from fellowship with Christ (1 Cor. 1:9) / knowing Him more intimately (Phil 3:12-14).

[skilletboy]

Originally Posted by Barang

“Wearing a mask is the great commandment: love your neighbor as yourself,” the best-selling author of “The Purpose-Driven Life” declared,

If I hear another Fellow-Christian package their personal or political opinions as the proper or only way to "love your neighbor as yourself" I might donkey punch someone. It is so manipulative, inappropriate, and such a horrific misuse of scripture. It really angers me.

[skilletboy]

I wanted to add, there is a long history of the church kowtowing to evil ideas of tyrannical groups or governments, just as much as we've seen them stand up against them.

From the Catholic church with the Nazi's, to the American churches in the south with slavery, and countless other examples. Cowards come in all sizes. They will be judged by God and God alone.

[skilletboy]

Originally Posted by 2761377

wearing a mask in church signals the same thing as carrying concealed in church-

weak/no Christian faith

Except there was a time where Jesus even told his disciples to make sure they had swords with them because of the danger they would encounter in that season.

[Garand Hunter]

Correct skilletboy !

Psalm 1

[socal m1 shooter]

Originally Posted by steadyrock

Reading this well done article broke a piece of my heart. My family were members of Saddleback Church for nearly 20 years, my wife was on staff there for over 10 of those. I was baptized there, and most of my kids were as well. The place was like home (and is in fact the reason we chose to live where we do, not far from it). [...]

The entire 20 years we were at Saddleback, I always said that as soon as Rick intentionally abused Scripture we’d leave, even if it was in the middle of a sermon. That day finally came for us about two years ago, and reading this only reaffirms that choice.

[...]

I read this Daily Wire piece, it is very sobering, a cautionary tale.

Regarding Rick Warren, I watched a video (called ”Church of Tares") which makes a very detailed, methodical, and thorough case that Rick Warren is wrong about a lot of things (and not just Rick Warren, but also many other first-world evangelical luminaries who are on a similar path as Warren, such as Bill Hybels and Bob Buford). It is a long video; I think I watched it in four or five installments, but I found it to be very eye-opening, and I have shared it with some friends. Outside of reading one of his books, I'm not sure that I have even listened to an entire message by Rick Warren, so I'm not very familiar with his work, nor do I know much about Saddleback, so in a certain sense, I don't have a dog in that fight. However, since you had a strong connection to Saddleback for so long, it might resonate even more strongly for you, OP.

However, I do listen to Keller quite a bit, and his messages and his books have taught me many things. Pastors will sometimes admit that they preach what they, themselves, need to learn or hear. Keller has talked about division in the north American church and he specifically mentions a red/blue divide among American evangelicals (he talked about that in 2019). Is it possible that he, a registered Democrat, saw something sinful in his own heart when he found himself interacting with “red” evangelicals (Christian supporters of DJT)? I’ll cop to having sinful thoughts regarding fellow “blue” believers who affiliate leftward in their politics.

None of these luminaries are infallible. They are human beings made in the image of God, just like you and me. I can’t see their hearts, their idols, or their intentions. All I have to go on is what they say/write, and some of what they do. Is it possible they too can drift? Is it possible they may have started well, and their faith was strong, guiding the way that they dealt with the world, with the day-to-day, week-to-week, month-to-month vicissitudes of life? And then slowly, compromise by compromise, they sometimes find themselves in a position where the day-to-day, week-to-week, and month-to-month life in the world guides their walk and tells them when to have faith, and what kind of faith to have? In other words, don’t people (including prominent ones) make idols of many things, including work, fame/reputation, money, power/influence, self, and they can slowly drift into syncretism? Scripture teaches we become like what we worship; a number of verses attest to this:

2 Kings 17:15
Psalm 115:8
Psalm 135:18
Jeremiah 2:5
Jeremiah 7:6

More to it, affluence can also lead to idolatry. I’m not defending any of the people mentioned in the Daily Wire piece; rather, I am saying, we humans are all capable of unspeakable evil, and people who are in positions of influence in the church have much bigger targets on their backs than many rank-and-file believers. I am pretty sure they are singled out by Satan and his helpers for extra attention, because they can be used very effectively when they falter.

Originally Posted by steadyrock

What saddens me so much here is not just that this happened at Saddleback, I saw that coming but held out hopeful that I was wrong (you don't get invited to give the invocation at Obama's first inauguration, get invited to speak at Klaus Schwab's WEF twice, and brag to your church that you are a member of the Council on Foreign Relations without owing the globalists some payback). What makes this so much worse to me is that it appears to have happened to a significant share of the overall evangelical church apparatus in America. We tend to look at churches in Europe and make passing remarks about them being "dead", but how did they get there? Infiltration by the enemy is everywhere. It appears that a big and influential portion of the church in America is just walking dead, and millions are being deceived.

Do you think there is much correlation (if any) between being highly esteemed in first-world evangelical circles (the visible church), and being esteemed in the only place that really counts, the Kingdom of God (the invisible church)? I'm not convinced that there is. Scripture teaches very clearly that the human heart is incredibly deceitful, and that humanity is basically bad, yet many polls show that a majority of self-identifying Christians believe humanity is basically good. What are we supposed to take away from that?

If you accept that the letters to the seven churches in Revelation are also addressed to the church during various eras, and the the letter to the church at Laodicea is addressed to the modern church, how do you read Revelation 3:20? I read it to mean that if Jesus is outside knocking, then He is not in that church, and it is full of unsaved people. Is it possible some of them are luminaries? Unfortunately I think the answer to that question is YES.

Regardless, if there is no correlation between being esteemed in the visible church (everyone who says "I'm a Christian”) and being esteemed in the invisible church (the elect), then it should not be surprising that some people in the visible church will behave like the rest of humanity. I’ve been guilty of thinking that church folk are somehow better than everyone else, and it seems I am usually wrong yet seldom in doubt. No one deserves salvation.

Originally Posted by Yodaman

Rick Warren has always twisted scripture to fit his needs. That was The Who basis for Saddleback church. That being said, God can use anyone.[…]

I agree, nothing is impossible for God, He can save anyone, and He knows us all better than we know ourselves. Any of these luminaries mentioned in the OP Daily Wire article, including Collins, could repent, and I hope they do.

That Church of Tares video gets into how Warren was a disciple of Peter Drucker and used Drucker's philosophy to maximize growth. Did you watch it some time before? It was posted years ago.

[GM4spd]

I remember quite well receiving Saddleback church instructions 101 in a class of a few hours duration. The fancy notebook ,the catch phrases really caught my attention. I worked for a huge corporation and I swear it read just like my company’s “ Mission Statement “. So the “ Purpose Driven Curch” is about how
MANY members and how fast you process them thru to inflate your numbers. Then there is the Money aspect. All the years I raised a family I never gave a tithe of 10%. Funny now that wife and I are retired we give about 10%. The problem is we don’t give it all to SB church. Warren has stated you are to give your 10% to your LOCAL church and them only! Very obvious this place is just a business first and a church second. The Bible in Malachi is very clear about the tithe and the 10%. The tithe is not explicitly found in the New Testament but does state unequivocally that God loves “ a cheerful giver”.

[socal m1 shooter]

Originally Posted by GM4spd

I remember quite well receiving Saddleback church instructions 101 in a class of a few hours duration. The fancy notebook ,the catch phrases really caught my attention. I worked for a huge corporation and I swear it read just like my company’s “ Mission Statement “. So the “ Purpose Driven Curch” is about how MANY members and how fast you process them thru to inflate your numbers.

Church of Tares makes a few interesting observations regarding what can be seen in many false churches that have bought into the basic north American mega-church model. They tend to focus on numerical growth, and as a result the services at these churches are often more for attracting unbelievers than feeding the believers who attend and give. The pastor "casts a vision" for what that church is supposed to be (an unhealthy focus on a mission statement, like you noticed) and where that church is supposed to go and how that church is supposed to get there. It's almost like they incorporate the classic unbiblical aphorism "God helps them that helps themselves" into their standard operating procedures, and go off in pursuit of their own agenda (not God's agenda), incorporating other worldly practices as it seems good to them.

The organization I work for also has a mission statement and I would wager that hardly anybody, including the people who wrote it, could recite it from memory. It's fair to say that it is widely regarded as having little, if anything to do with what the worker bees are dealing with on a day-to-day basis, so no one cares about it, it is basically some meaningless leftist nonsense. Maybe because of my exposure to the culture of my workplace, I am a tiny bit disdainful of mission statements, yet the pastor at the church I attend (his politics are leftist) is big on the mission statement to the extent he even had parts of it posted on the walls around the church, almost like it is on the same level as scripture. He quotes from it repeatedly, but I don't want to compound on my sins, so suffice it to say, I find his apparent focus on it to be off-putting. I feel the same way about the rebranding of the church that he pushed through. I thought it was a solution in search of a problem.

However many complaints I have-- I'll be the first to admit, I'm always quick to sinfully elevate my own likes and dislikes, my preferences, to just at or below the level of scripture-- I have not caught any outright heresy coming from the pulpit, and I take it day by day, trying to keep first things first, and I try to worship in spirit and in truth, hallowing God's name, sticking to His agenda.

It almost goes without saying, but Church can be messy. Why this is a shock to people is hard to understand, because the church is composed of broken, sinful, fallen people (the only kind of people in this world). The closer you get to a church, or another individual, the messier it gets, and when you get involved in leadership, you learn all kinds of things about others that you never wanted to know. It is not easy to serve in leadership positions, and the opposition from Satan and his helpers to those willing to serve is sometimes greater than what rank-and-file believers face.

Originally Posted by GM4spd

Then there is the Money aspect. All the years I raised a family I never gave a tithe of 10%. Funny now that wife and I are retired we give about 10%. The problem is we don’t give it all to SB church. Warren has stated you are to give your 10% to your LOCAL church and them only! Very obvious this place is just a business first and a church second. The Bible in Malachi is very clear about the tithe and the 10%. The tithe is not explicitly found in the New Testament but does state unequivocally that God loves “ a cheerful giver”.

This is a separate issue, but it can be a controversial and divisive one. I don't want to take the thread sideways, but I'm sure money played a big role in getting us to the place described in the Daily Wire piece in the OP.

[Garand Hunter]

Of course money was big in this !

Psalm 1

[Wordupmybrotha]

Couldn't finish the article because of paywall.
Never heard Rick Warren's sermon so I don't have an opinion about him, but I do have an experience of changing churches because I noticed that the pastor misquoted the bible couple of times and misinterpreted the scripture.

[rp55]

If you look at Rick Warren's Wikipedia page you will see the below paragraph. It tells me everything I thing I need to know about him.

Warren has been invited to speak at national and international forums, including the United Nations, the World Economic Forum in Davos, the African Union, the Council on Foreign Relations, Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, TED, and Time's Global Health Summit. He has been a member of the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) since 2005

[Cali-Glock]

Sadly Rick Warren is a wolf in Sheeps clothing.