BODY ARMOR: The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly

[d-r]

PAGE AND SITE UPDATED 3-12-2019. IT HAD BEEN AWHILE!

Ok, lots of folks have requested I repost this here, so here ya go. I have been designing and building armor for more than 17 years, so have a fair amount of experience creating and destroying all sorts of PPE. If you have any questions, please let me know. If I don't have the answer, I will tell you so, and see if I can get it for you.

If you are interested in even more details, review, tests, etc, check out my site at: http://www/drmorgear.com

For specific recommendations of armor and gear, check out my continuously updated Recommended Armor and Gear Database:

https://drmorgear.wordpress.com/reco...rmor-database/

Just some recommendations (and this goes for any armor you buy, new or used):

Avoid Spectrashield, general Spectra woven, or Dyneema: This material is based on polyethylene, the same stuff that milk jugs are made of. The armor version is referred to as Ultra High Molecular Weight Poly-Ethylene (UHMWPE). In situations where it gets hot (and most car trunks in the summer can get HOT), it will denature, reverting back to simple milk jug plastic. Armoring FAIL. If the material goes over 180 F, it becomes a danger to its wearer.

Avoid Laminates: Something else I strongly advise against. Laminated armor materials have huge drawbacks (Spectra laminates more so). They suck against contact shots (the muzzle blast literally melts them, allowing rounds to go right through), they delaminate with wear, they don't breathe (try wrapping yourself in saran wrap- that's how comfy they are), and they don't have anywhere near the shelf life of woven kevlar (which is practically immortal as far as I have seen). Steer clear of laminates:

Spectrashield contact shot- massive penetration:
http://www.itstactical.com/wp-conten...pb-150x150.jpg

Spectrashield vs. Woven Kevlar BALCS panels contact shots- Spectrashield, massive penetration, with one shot .44 Mag, Woven Kevlar took 9 rounds before penetration:
http://www.itstactical.com/wp-conten...ct-150x150.jpg

Spectrashield contact shot- massive penetration
http://www.itstactical.com/wp-conten...it-150x150.jpg

Woven Kevlar Contact Shot- No penetration:
http://www.itstactical.com/wp-conten...it-150x150.jpg

PHOTOS COURTESY ITS TACTICAL

AVOID ZYLON: For the love of everything that is holy. There was an amendment passed in congress outlawing this stuff for pete's sake. It was supposed to be the next great armor material, and lots of manufacturers jumped on it. Trouble is, combine heat with humidity (um, your body?) and the material degraded rapidly. This lead directly to the deaths of at least two police officers, and Zylon was (after much foot dragging) pulled. Don't ever use it.

THINGS TO LOOK FOR IN SURPLUS ARMOR TO AVOID THE ZYLON BLUES:

POINT BLANK FUSION (ZYLON AND SPECTRASHIELD)http://www.us-elitegear.com/fusion.htm
Z-SHIELD (A ZYLON LAMINATE, YECCCH!)
Z-FLEX (SAME AS ABOVE)
THERE ARE MORE, BUT THIS IS A START.

If the label does not say, and the seller cannot/will not swear to it, assume any surplus armor contains laminates, Zylon, or both. Zylon containing vests were universally deep-sixed after the Berry Amendment, and could be rooted out of dumpsters. These are appearing on Fleabay and forums (Currently there are Zylon containing vests in the Equipment Exchange), being sold to unsuspecting buyers. ASK, ASK, ASK, and if you get a song and dance, walk away. Your life is much too precious to risk anything but woven Kevlar.

Pretty muchly that leaves woven aramid as the last man standing. This stuff is, as always, a great material. It is tough, fireproof (it will char but not melt at above 700 F) and will retain most of its ballistic effectiveness even after reaching this temp. Being woven, it breathes better. Contact shots have a much harder time getting through. It lasts virtually forever- the 5-7 year warranty is not there to tell you when it goes bad. Nominally, it is just there as a CYA measure by the companies to limit liability. In one test, it was actually shown that older vests did BETTER than new vests at stopping rounds. Weird, I know. Here are two references:

“NIJ tests failed to demonstrate any significant differences in 10-year-old armor, regardless of the extent of use or apparent physical condition”

“The warranty exists solely to limit the manufacturer's liability on the product and is not a reflection of the anticipated service life of the product.”

...Guide to Police Body Armor, National Law Enforcement and Corrections Technology Center (NLECTC)

You can also find an abstract here:

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/Digi...11390NCJRS.pdf

So kevlar, kevlar, kevlar. Woven, not laminated.

Regarding plates: Rifle armor is important, as soft armor is completely useless against rifle rounds. M193 will go through about 120-140 layers of soft armor with enough zip left to seriously ruin your weekend. Believe me, I have checked.

Rifle armor is rated either level III or IV. Now, the interesting thing is, the higher rating is not necessarily better. If you expect to be facing enemies with AP capability, the IV is nice to have (the spec calls for the plate to stop ONE round of .30-06 M2 AP black tip. One round). If you are expecting normal mild steel or lead cored, go with III by all means. The spec for III calls for stopping 6 rounds of M80 .308 ball @ 2750FPS within a 6" circle. So much better multi hit. Always read the specs!

Then there is the question whether the plate is designed to stand alone, or be worn with soft armor behind it ("In Conjunction With"). The stand alone plates tend to be heavier, as they typically have much thicker backings. This is nice if you are wearing just the plates and nothing else, but usually you have some sort of soft armor on, so the ICW are usually a better bet. Plus, just me, I like having extra padding. But if (like Doc Jarhead mentions) you like mobility, then stand alones might be for you.

Materials for rifle armor usually focus on hard stuff- soft armor defeats pistol rounds by catching, slowing, and deforming them. They are low velocity (relatively) with a fairly large frontal area. Rifle rounds are fast, with a small, pointed frontal area. The defeat mechanism is yawing, deforming, eroding, shattering, and frictive braking (the last one is unusual).

Steel- Tried and true, this material is great for stopping rounds (millions of steel targets can't all be wrong). It stops by deforming rounds. It can keep stopping them as long as the structure is uncompromised. Heat and mistreatment do not affect it. Drawbacks- it is heavy for its protective levels, it can rust if you chip the paint, and it spalls. What is spall? Well, it is the reason most steel target manufacturers recommend being 50-100 yards from the target. When a round hits, it splashes little bits of copper and lead in a cone at an angle. If you are wearing one of these plates, that high velocity splash can end up in your throat and face. Make sure if you run steel plates you wear spall guards in FRONT of the plates. Just a few layers of kevlar are all that is needed. One final drawback to steel plates- certain high velocity threats can penetrate it. A few years back, there was a dustup over a certain manufacturers plates not stopping M193 @ above 3000 fps (but remember, M193 is not in the spec!). So do your homework.

UPDATE 5-28-2015- A company called Armor Wear has just released steel plates made with Ultra-Hard Steel ("UHS") which WILL stop M193 at 3000fps and above. I now consider this material best practices, with Mil HHS the bare minimum.

****Material choices: BEST is UHS (Ultra-Hard Steel/AR680) next best is Mil-Spec HHS (High Hardness Steel), offered by Armor-Wear and Maingun Surplus respectively****

AR500 (Abrasion Resistant, 500 Brinell Hardness) IS NO LONGER RECOMMENDED!

A quick and dirty rule of thumb for stopping the M193 threat with steel plate: 500 bhn (Brinell Hardness) needs to be 10mm thick at 3100 fps to stop M193, 600 bhn needs to be 6mm, and at 58-63 Rc (Rockwell C), the plate can be made 4.5mm thick.

Titanium- Ahhh, Titanium. The very word brings to mind a supermetal that can do everything. More misconceptions surround this metal than just about any other. While true, it does make superior armor in some regards, it is not a panacea. Ti has been used for several decades in the construction of advanced airframes (the A-12 was over 60% Ti, a strategic metal mostly found in Russia...). Its claims to fame are: lightweight (60% the weight of steel @ comparable strengths) and corrosion resistance. It is virtually impervious to corrosion (ironically, because it oxidizes so quickly, forming a tough layer of TiO2). It cannot be hardened appreciably above the high 40s low 50s Rockwell C, and even that requires exotic precipitation hardening Beta alloys. The most common alloy in use is referred to as 6-4, which is short for 6Al4V (6 points of Aluminum and 4 points of Vanadium). Ti is a fairly tough metal, which makes it a good choice for armor plates for AFVs and APCs in thick section (I don't have the TE numbers compared to RHA in front of me right now, but they are pretty good). In soft armor vests, Ti plates are sought after as trauma plates vs. steel because they are lighter and do not rust. In sufficient thickness (2-3mm) they will stop all handgun rounds, up to and including some AP like the steel cored Tok rounds that play merry hob with most soft armor.
For rifle armor, Ti falls short- it is not hard enough to shatter high velocity rifle rounds (see above re: hardness). This is where the TE (thickness equivalency) comes into play. Ti can stop rifle rounds, even larger caliber cannon fire, but in thicknesses and weights that are prohibitive to us groundpounders. My research has shown M80 will be stopped by a 14mm thick plate of 6-4 backed by 4mm of Aramid. Most steel plates are between 4.5mm and 6mm depending on backing. There have been some hybrid steel/Ti plates, but at that point, you might as well just go all steel. Choose the right material for the job- for pistol rounds, Ti is a champ. For rifles, look elsewhere.

Ceramic- This material encompasses several types of ceramic. The most common is Alumina, also known as Aluminum Oxide or Al2O3. It is very hard (upwards of 9 on the Moh's hardness scale), fairly light, inert, and not TOO expensive. It stops projectiles by erosion, shattering, and yawing. It is almost never used alone, relying on a backing to keep the high velocity rubble and projectile fragments from continuing into your body cavity. It is great against lots of rifle rounds, and can be made proof against some AP rounds. It is insensitive to heat and water. Drawbacks- more expensive than steel, can be sensitive to mishandling (think cracked plates if you toss them in your gear bag). Other ceramics include Silicon Carbide and Boron Carbide (more expensive and VERY expensive respectively). These are lighter and harder materials, and can stop the very highest of threats (tungsten carbide cored AP for instance). Most level IV plates are B4C.

Spectra- Wait, didn't I just say don't use this? Yes, yes I did. I am including this here for information purposes, and also because it is a gray area. Spectra in hard armor is not as HUGE a danger as soft armor (this from DocGKR) because of the amount of heat required to get it isothermic (the same temp throughout). So, if you have Spectra hardplates, there you go. Standalone Spectra plates can stop rifle rounds with enough layers. It stops rounds via frictive braking (think of bullet brake). However, be advised there are some rounds that will penetrate UHMWPE plates, such as M855 green tip. So again, do your homework. AN EXAMPLE IS FOUND HERE:

http://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-32839.html

GREEN TIP M855 IS NOT IN THE SPEC FOR LEVEL III, SO DON'T ASSUME.

[Peachdog]

Maybe throw in some advice about the ability for it to be concealed. My current rig is low profile and manages to fit under a thin hoody or jacket without being noticed and it is a lvl 3a vest with lvl 3 ti-steel plates. If I was standing guard or stuck in a static location where mobility wasn't possible then being able to deceive the enemy into an easier torso shot would give me the advantage.

Avoid the $2000 tactical rigs like the military or swat wears and just get a simple lvl3a soft armor vest and carrier for under $700 with some plates. Or even cheaper: Buy just plates and a plate carrier.

-The steel and ti-steel alloy plates are great for the fact that they can be abused and thrown around until shtf when you will not have to worry about their effectiveness. They can be had relatively cheap if you shop around for them about $120 per 10x12 plate. Downsides are weight and lack of lvl4 protection. Spalling is not as much of an issue with lower end projectiles if you've got it in a thick carrier with gear on top, but the high powered rifle rounds might be cause to get an actual liner.

-Ceramic is lighter, more effective at absorbing impacts, and come in lvl4 variety, but they are prone to fractures with rough handling which is why we constantly rotate through ours in the military. They have to be held up to xrays just to check if they're still ready for combat. Also, they are thicker than the metal plates and harder to be contoured to body shapes which is a negative to concealment. I normally see these go for around $200 per plate when it comes to lvl 3.

-The Spectra/UHWMPE are nice and very lightweight compared to the other types of plates. But as was stated earlier only go up to lvl3 protection and are fairly bulky and expensive. The M855 part doesn't sound truthful to me though. If it rated to an NIJ level then it's likely the same protection.


The best thing you can do if you want to wear body armor is to train in it and get used to how it feels to shoot while wearing it. But body armor is great for peace of mind and knowing that you stand a better chance of recovering from stray rounds and multiple up close sub-rifle calibers. Also, I found this exact same piece posted in the AK Files Forums. Don't know if you're the writer for both.

[Darklyte27]

BPme, front and back level IV rifle plates, 490$ shipped for me.
ceramic, claimed to stop multi hit 3006 AP rds.

[ETactical2011]

Where is a good place to pick up the gamma III plates?
Also, what do you think about the protech special threat plate?
http://www.protechtactical.com/pc-11...at-plates.aspx

[d-r]

Guns4LIfe: Best way to find out is either ask the seller, or do some research. Most of the time they will say, and if they don't best assume it is a laminate.

Danny, just PM'd you, not good news unfortunately- vest contains Zylon and Spectrashield (See below RE: POINT BLANK FUSION)

Remember folks, there are still ZYLON vests out there, and I would not use them as oven mitts if they were given to me free. Woven Kevlar or go home. Words to look for and avoid:

POINT BLANK FUSION (Zylon and Spectrashield laminate)
Z-Shield (Zylon Laminate (YECCCH!)
Z-Flex (See above)

This is a big reason I posted the above. There are lots of Zylon containing vests floating around out there that cannot be used/sold to/by MIL/LEO, so are deep sixed. These can be picked up for virtually nothing and sold on Fleabay or boards like this one to unsuspecting people.

If you are purchasing used armor, don't let up on the seller- MAKE SURE it is 100% woven Kevlar/Twaron Aramid. Don't buy the song and dance that "oh, laminates are just fine, they are used by Seal Team X, blah blah blah." LAMINATES ARE CRAP.

You can (if you have access to the ballistic package interior) LOOK, woven Kevlar/Twaron Aramid looks like yellow fabric. There should be NO plastic (looks like plastic wrap) or white shiny material (UHMWPE based material). Heck, if you need a reference, send me a post paid envelope and I WILL SEND YOU A SAMPLE OF THE MATERIAL YOU WANT TO SEE.

I am doing this to keep folks safe, and anything I can do to help. Please PM me with questions, I will answer any questions I can, and if I don't know, I will tell you so.

Oh, and Peachdog- yup, that is me. Thanks for your reply, PM incoming.

[d-r]

Best place currently to get TAP GAMMAs:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NEW-10x12-...item25681873c8

No connection to seller, just like to point folks in the right direction.

Link to a good post showing how M855 and pure UHMWPE plates may be unhealthy:

http://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-32839.html

Name of the poster should be familiar to y'all by this point!

[d-r]

ZYLON INFO DUMP!

There are vests currently being sold surplus on Ebay and boards that contain Zylon. Look for and AVOID the following:

POINT BLANK FUSION (ZYLON AND SPECTRASHIELD)http://www.us-elitegear.com/fusion.htm
Z-FLEX (ZYLON LAMINATE-YEEECH)
Z-SHIELD (SAME AS ABOVE)

These are a few, and I will add some more, but be on the lookout. If you can't get the seller to tell you what the vest is made of, walk away. Below are some links about Zylon and its dangers:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont...1n25vests.html

http://www.usarmor.com/zylonnews.htm

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1470175/posts

http://www.24-7-news.com/archives/434

http://tacticalforums.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001190-2.html

As usual, if you have any questions, please ask. Stay safe.

D-R

RIFLE PLATE RECOMMENDATIONS:

So far, only three that I would wear currently (and have worn in two cases):

Armored Mobility Hybrid Level III+ (Top choice by a fair margin)

TAP GAMMA Level III

DBT Level III Steel Operator Cut

YMMV, just my 2 Kroner.

Here is DocGKR's infodump on laminates and contact shots, COURTESY OF ITS TACTICAL (No connection with them):

http://www.itstactical.com/gearcom/b...ft-body-armor/

[d-r]

HK is correct- body armor can't hurt and will probably help. At the very least, it will have tremendous trade value. Look at the value of a maille shirt in the middle ages...

[d-r]

Care of woven Kevlar- Since this has come up a lot, here are my recommendations:

The enemies of woven Kevlar are two- sun exposure (strong, chronic exposure to UV light) and bacteria/fungus. The best way to protect against the former is don't go sunning in your bare armor panels. Keep them inside the carrier, or at the very least in their protective fabric outer sheath. For the latter, every once in a while, soak the armor panels in a weak solution of baking soda. This will kill the fungus, and neutralize any acids produced by sweat eating bacteria. You can then follow up with a very mild dish soap solution, then rinse again and let dry. This will keep your armor practically immortal. DO NOT put your armor in the dryer, and DO NOT use harsh chemical cleaners on it. Just baking soda and a little dish/bar soap is all you need.

HTH

D-R

[bob7122]

Originally Posted by d-r

Care of woven Kevlar- Since this has come up a lot, here are my recommendations:

The enemies of woven Kevlar are two- sun exposure (strong, chronic exposure to UV light) and bacteria/fungus. The best way to protect against the former is don't go sunning in your bare armor panels. Keep them inside the carrier, or at the very least in their protective fabric outer sheath. For the latter, every once in a while, soak the armor panels in a weak solution of baking soda. This will kill the fungus, and neutralize any acids produced by sweat eating bacteria. You can then follow up with a very mild dish soap solution, then rinse again and let dry. This will keep your armor practically immortal. DO NOT put your armor in the dryer, and DO NOT use harsh chemical cleaners on it. Just baking soda and a little dish/bar soap is all you need.

HTH

D-R

can i use lysol spray on my vest? for the baking soda should i dilute it in water say,-1/3 cup of baking soda to 2cups water? would it be okay to wear under armour and then my vest? thanks in advance.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by bob7122

can i use lysol spray on my vest? for the baking soda should i dilute it in water say,-1/3 cup of baking soda to 2cups water? would it be okay to wear under armour and then my vest? thanks in advance.

The technical guide to Kevlar - http://www2.dupont.com/Kevlar/en_US/...ical_Guide.pdf - says alcohol has no effect - see page 11 and following.

[Lugiahua]

awhile ago, someone in another thread claimed that it is illegal to use hard plate along with a soft armor. (like IV plate insert in a IIIA armor)

I would like to know if that is true? not planning to break the law unintentionally.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by Lugiahua

awhile ago, someone in another thread claimed that it is illegal to use hard plate along with a soft armor. (like IV plate insert in a IIIA armor)

I would like to know if that is true? not planning to break the law unintentionally.

No, not true.

'Body armor' is defined at PC 16288

16288.
As used in Section 31360, “body armor” means any bullet-resistant material intended to provide ballistic and trauma protection for the person wearing the body armor.

No distinction is made for plates vs fabric.

Felons may not own or possess body armor

31360.
(a) A person who has been convicted of a violent felony under the laws of the United States, the State of California, or any other state, government, or country, who purchases, owns, or possesses body armor, as defined in Section 16288, except as authorized under subdivision (b), is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170 for 16 months, or two or three years.

There's also a sentencing enhancement for committing a violent crime while wearing a 'body vest', PC 12022.2

(b) Any person who wears a body vest in the commission or
attempted commission of a violent offense, as defined in Section
29905, shall, upon conviction of that felony or attempted felony, in
addition and consecutive to the punishment prescribed for the felony
or attempted felony of which he or she has been convicted, be
punished by an additional term of one, two, or five years. The court
shall order the middle term unless there are circumstances in
aggravation or mitigation. The court shall state the reasons for its
enhancement choice on the record at the time of the sentence.
(c) As used in this section, "body vest" means any
bullet-resistant material intended to provide ballistic and trauma
protection for the wearer.

That's it - no other restriction in California law regarding ownership, possession or use of body armor.

[brassburnz]

Originally Posted by Librarian

No, not true.

'Body armor' is defined at PC 16288 No distinction is made for plates vs fabric.

Felons may not own or possess body armor There's also a sentencing enhancement for committing a violent crime while wearing a 'body vest', PC 12022.2
That's it - no other restriction in California law regarding ownership, possession or use of body armor.

Given all the changes in California gun laws recently, I was wondering if this post is still true today.

d-r: Thanks for all the info.

[97F1504RAD]

Originally Posted by brassburnz

Given all the changes in California gun laws recently, I was wondering if this post is still true today.

d-r: Thanks for all the info.

Yes

[brassburnz]

In another thread, someone mentioned Sportsman's Guide was selling surplus British police ballistic vests. The description says Kevlar panels and "Not for safety use," but it was on sale and I had a coupon so I bought one. It didn't have a NIJ rating listed, but it's from England. Date of manu-2/2002.

https://www.sportsmansguide.com/prod...used?a=2184624

d-r posted if the panel isn't woven Kevlar, stay away. The vest arrived today and I pulled out one of the panels. I made a tiny incision to look inside. Fabric with a weave. No laminate. d-r said woven Kevlar in good condition should last 25-30 years.

Unfortunately it is only rated for 9mm and .357 magnum but it's better than nothing. The back panel is about 16 X20 in the shape of a torso. The front has two panels that overlap in the middle. I was wondering how that would work with a zipper.

My plan was to test one of the panels and use the large one for a backpack insert. I realize at best it is Level II protection, but it's "better than nothing." I teach at a public school in L.A. county and people would not understand if I show up to work wearing Level IV body armor.

[d-r]

Librarian, thank you for that. I believe no states currently forbid the possession of armor, but CT and NJ (the second IIRC) require credentials to purchase new armor.

[Lugiahua]

Thanks, that comment got me worried since I use hard inserts when attending rifle range sometimes.

[Darklyte27]

IF any state did, it would be CA first i bet, but I just got some 6 months ago and its good to go.

[mdib870]

Anyone know about ar500 level 3 steel plates

[d-r]

RE: Ar500 Level 3 Plates- These are GTG, DBT and AMI both make/made these. There was a bit of an uproar about M193 @ over 3100 fps penetrating them, but remember, M193 is NOT in the spec for Level III! Always know and understand the spec.

I will not run steel plates without a spall guard in front of the plate though.

[eclark]

What exactly does the date mean on my vest? Do they expire?

[d-r]

Originally Posted by eclark

What exactly does the date mean on my vest? Do they expire?

Eclark-

That is the born on date. While vest manufacturers put a "shelf life" on vests, if it is a woven Kevlar vest, it should remain viable for at least 25-30 years if taken care of. There was actually a study done that found older armor performed *better* than new armor. The 5 year warranty is pretty much just a CYA measure. This does not apply to laminate or zylon vests.

[bob7122]

thank you sir.

[gtturborex]

I have the chance to purchase this RBR Flex 35 from a friend. Does this look like a good piece? Sorry I'm new to this stuff.

[gtturborex]

Anyone?

[mindwip]

Looks like it is held sideways. Do not wear next to the body like such.

[gtturborex]

Originally Posted by mindwip

Looks like it is held sideways. Do not wear next to the body like such.

I thought as long as I held my gat sideways that it was ok to wear the armor saideways as well

[Bobbar]

D-r pm sent!!!

[IceMinus]

discreet body armor made for executives.takes a 40 s&w at point blank range with no penetration. and this body armor also has secondary uses making it almost undetectable. Laptop cases, binders what have you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNjpXHwScvs

[deckhandmike]

Anyone got a lead on a place to apply the proper linex spall guard onto steel that civilians can go through?

[dubmasterdee]

have anyone own or know someone that owns this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/level-NIJ010...06%26rk%3D1%26


it is by this company called compass armor. their website didn't give much information, but just claims it's a NIJ threat level 3 vest. it is a chinese made product, i wonder if this can save my life one day. give me your opinions thanks.

[d-r]

I tend to avoid any personal protective gear made in China. And if they are claiming the vest is level 3, all the more reason to run the other way. Highest rating soft armor can achieve is 3A.

ETA: It is claiming level 3A, not 3. Remember, 3 is rigid armor for rifle rounds. The (A) is important. Still, they do not specify material, so assume it is laminates.

[sleepr66]

I am going to buy steel but there is one major drawbak that has also not been mentioned. An otherwise non-fatal shot can be turned into a fatal one. Say you get shot in the side, a simple through-and-through (I say that like its a piece of cake). Upon exiting your body it strikes the inside of you steel plate and ricochets back into you. Would be a bummer to get shot twice with one bullet.

However I like the pros of steel, maybe down the road I will get some nice stand-alones. But for SHTF, I like the idea of being able to take many rounds (which hardened steel can do) and not have to worry about shelf life.

[RudyCakes]

Where can one get spall guards? I used google and found ways to DIY and a few home workshop sellers but I'd like such an important item to be from a reputable source. I plan on running AR-500 plates.

[maxblockm]

Originally Posted by RudyCakes

Where can one get spall guards? I used google and found ways to DIY and a few home workshop sellers but I'd like such an important item to be from a reputable source. I plan on running AR-500 plates.

They have stand alone guards, but if you're planning on running ar500, you might as well just buy it with spall protective coating already on it. It'll be cheaper.

[RudyCakes]

And what do you think of just getting a Paxcon coating applied to the strike face instead?

[EL_NinO619]

http://www.internationalbodyarmor.co...ges/st_plates/

Any good, Looking at the 8x10 I believe LGS has them for $300 a set? Actually 10x12 with front badge 1-2 item on list.

[TacticalPlinker]

Does anyone know where I can buy 10" x 12" armor "plates" (non-ballistic) for the purpose of training and to serve as a substitute when actual plates are not needed (storage/range) but you don't want your plate carrier to be "floppy" or "bunch up"?

I found these at Tactical Assault Gear...
http://www.tacticalassaultgearstore....tplateset.aspx

I'm looking for something exactly like those, but without the weight and without the cost!

[Sub-Moa]

Originally Posted by TacticalPlinker

Does anyone know where I can buy 10" x 12" armor "plates" (non-ballistic) for the purpose of training and to serve as a substitute when actual plates are not needed (storage/range) but you don't want your plate carrier to be "floppy" or "bunch up"?

I found these at Tactical Assault Gear...
http://www.tacticalassaultgearstore....tplateset.aspx

I'm looking for something exactly like those, but without the weight and without the cost!

You can always make your own plates by cutting out layers of cardboard and using polyester resin to make a replica of your real plates. You could even manipulate the overall weight and dimensions to be the same. I would recommend inlaying "Training" into the resin so people won't think they are real. I have not done this myself. Only issue I can see is how well the cardboard would soak up the resin. May take a couple times to get it right.