.223 not sizing right

[LynnJr]

You are new to reloading so lets explain how a small base die needs more sizing than a standard die.

On a standard die the body of the case gets squeezed to a lesser degree.

On a small base die the body gets squeezed more.

As you adjust any die down or lower in the press or closer to the shellholder the case gets longer. Yes longer!!! This happens because your typical press cant compress the brass molecules but it can reshape the existing brass. The body or main part of the case gets pressed inwards and this shrinking of the case body moves the shoulder forward.
On a small base die the body gets pressed more so the shoulder moves farther forward.
Now you are thinking this guy must be nuts a small base die should size the brass more and it does thats why the shoulder moved forward more.

The shoulder moving forward means brass that would normally fit no longer fits so this guy is nuts.

As you keep screwing the die down or closer to the shellholder the die will now make contact with the shoulder.

It makes contact sooner on the small base die because the shoulder moved further on the small base die.

As you keep screwing the die down the shoulder starts getting pushed back or reformed and the extra brass gets moved into the neck as it has to go somewhere.

You keep twisting the die down in small increments until the gun cycles correctly.

Why did some or most of your brass work?
When you pick up range brass it is shot in many different chambers with small variations.
When you ran it through your small base die the dies dimensions never changed but all the variations in that eange brass moved your shoulder around in varying degrees.

You can take a piece of brass that hasnt been resized yet that fits into your gun and after lubing it you can incrementally start resizing it.

As you slowly screw the die down you will find a spot where the brass will no longer fit into the gun. As you keep screwing the die down it will once again fit into the gun.

In your example just keep screwing the die down until it all fits

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by LynnJr

The shoulder moving forward means brass that would normally fit no longer fits so this guy is nuts.

As you keep screwing the die down or closer to the shellholder the die will now make contact with the shoulder.

It makes contact sooner on the small base die because the shoulder moved further on the small base die.

As you keep screwing the die down the shoulder starts getting pushed back or reformed and the extra brass gets moved into the neck as it has to go somewhere.

You keep twisting the die down in small increments until the gun cycles correctly.

Why did some or most of your brass work?
When you pick up range brass it is shot in many different chambers with small variations.
When you ran it through your small base die the dies dimensions never changed but all the variations in that eange brass moved your shoulder around in varying degrees.

You can take a piece of brass that hasnt been resized yet that fits into your gun and after lubing it you can incrementally start resizing it.

As you slowly screw the die down you will find a spot where the brass will no longer fit into the gun. As you keep screwing the die down it will once again fit into the gun.

In your example just keep screwing the die down until it all fits

Just to add to this excellent description of what's happening as the die is screwed further and further down,
let's quantify HOW MUCH we are screwing the die down.

I did the math and on 7/8" threads, the die will screw down 0.071" in a complete turn.
It just so happens that the circumference of the 7/8" threads is about 70mm.
What this means is that if you were to wrap a mm scale around the 7/8" threaded portion of the die, every time you adjusted 1mm of rotation, you will be adjusting the die down about 0.001".
There is a 1/70 mismatch over a full turn, but since you are making just small adjustments of 0.002" at a time, we can ignore that 1.4% error in measurement.

Here is an adhesive millimeter scale that you can wrap around the die threads:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/324852152605
You will want to trim it to get rid of the numbers and all the extra blank space so it's just a 1/4" wide strip, then wrap that strip around your die's threads about 1/8" above the locknut.
Then put a pencil or sharpie mark on the locknut that you reference to the 1mm hash marks.
Now in use, you adjust 2 marks at a time to make a 0.002" die adjustment.

[sigstroker]

Originally Posted by smoothy8500

I guess nobody checks their sizing against the chamber in question? Is the case gauge at SAAMI minimum or maximum? Are you bumping the shoulder .002" or .005"? Inquiring minds want to know....

Most people that are loading .223 are loading for autoloaders. That ammo has to fit every autoloader I have and every one I'm GONNA have. I always use a gauge to check my resized brass. Besides, a Wilson gauge also shows you at a glance whether it needs trimming or not.

[Fastattack]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

My money is on the gauge not being relieved to clear dinged up rims so cases with pull marks on the rim hang up and people that don't realize it's happening think the case is not fitting some other part of the gauge.

That was my first thought as well, but we haven't heard back from OP on where the hangups are occurring. Measurements and pictures would be helpful. I seriously doubt it's the case gauge. Begin with the most probable/simple explanation and work from there.

[dezert lobo]

Anybody else notice that case gauges can vary from different manufacturers meaning one being tighter than the other therefore making a case pass in one and fail on the other? As an example my Dillon will pass most 223’s I initially sized using my RCBS AR series die but my Lyman will fail some causing me to resize failed cases again only by screwing down the die a tad more.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by dezert lobo

Anybody else notice that case gauges can vary from different manufacturers meaning one being tighter than the other therefore making a case pass in one and fail on the other? As an example my Dillon will pass most 223’s I initially sized using my RCBS AR series die but my Lyman will fail some causing me to resize failed cases again only by screwing down the die a tad more.

Yep.
Each company makes them however they want.
The SAAMI specs are so sloppy that they can ALL claim to fall within SAAMI specs.

What you want for a GAUGE is minimum specs so that ammo that fits the minimum spec gauge SHOULD fit in ANY chamber that's in-spec, regardless of it being at one or other end of the specification range.

Also, when you get some cases that fail a gauge, try flipping the case around backwards and see if it's only the RIM that's causing the failure.
It will be really obvious when you flip the case backwards if the rim fits into the gauge or not and you can find the burrs by blackening the rim with a sharpie and them pushing it back into the gauge backwards.

[pacrat]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Yep.
Each company makes them however they want.
The SAAMI specs are so sloppy that they can ALL claim to fall within SAAMI specs.

What you want for a GAUGE is minimum specs so that ammo that fits the minimum spec gauge SHOULD fit in ANY chamber that's in-spec, regardless of it being at one or other end of the specification range.

Also, when you get some cases that fail a gauge, try flipping the case around backwards and see if it's only the RIM that's causing the failure.
It will be really obvious when you flip the case backwards if the rim fits into the gauge or not and you can find the burrs by blackening the rim with a sharpie and them pushing it back into the gauge backwards.

^^^YUP^^^

NOT ALL HOLES ARE CREATED EQUAL

[zouaveherb]

Originally Posted by NoHeavyHitter

You mention your brass is "mixed headstamp" and that you bought it from someone else. That sounds a lot like range-pick-up brass to me, which means you have no way to know how many times it was fired.
<NoHeavyHitter's really good reason why you should trim your cases>

This is a good point. In addition to trimming them, you should probably anneal them all because you don't know if a particular case has been shot once or a bunch of times.

Unless the primers are crimped or staked, then it's pretty much once-fired since you have to remove the crimp/staking in order to reload those cases.

[zouaveherb]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Here is an adhesive millimeter scale that you can wrap around the die threads:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/324852152605
You will want to trim it to get rid of the numbers and all the extra blank space so it's just a 1/4" wide strip, then wrap that strip around your die's threads about 1/8" above the locknut.
Then put a pencil or sharpie mark on the locknut that you reference to the 1mm hash marks.
Now in use, you adjust 2 marks at a time to make a 0.002" die adjustment.

This. Is. An. Awesome. Idea.

[zouaveherb]

Originally Posted by dezert lobo

Anybody else notice that case gauges can vary from different manufacturers meaning one being tighter than the other therefore making a case pass in one and fail on the other? As an example my Dillon will pass most 223’s I initially sized using my RCBS AR series die but my Lyman will fail some causing me to resize failed cases again only by screwing down the die a tad more.

What you need is a SAAMI minimum chamber spec gauge. As others have said, if it fits this, then it will fit whatever.

What you want is a slotted SAAMI minimum chamber spec gauge.

https://sheridanengineering.com/prod...unition-gauge/

A slotted gauge will tell you exactly where things are binding. Run a sharpie down the side of the case and see where it's being scraped off as you rotate it in the gauge.

[MarikinaMan]

Originally Posted by pacrat

^^^YEP^^^

Not all holes are created equal.

Rifle chamber is a HOLE
Sizer Die is a HOLE

Those 2 HOLES are relevant.

Cartridge Gage is a HOLE. But until it is PROVEN to match the Chamber HOLE.

It is just another source of problems in the "TOLERANCE STACKING SOUP" that plagues all things reloading related.

There is no tolerance stacking here.

The rifle chamber is a hole, it is expected to be SAMI spec.

Die is a hole, same and adjustable.

Case gauge is hole, and is expected to be SAMI spec.

That said the gauge is the control. With a decent gauge and die, the user should be able to make SAMI spec ammo with a properly adjusted die, if he is half decent at knowing that he is doing.

If it doesnt fit the chamber, then something is wrong with the chamber. Spec reloaded ammo is same as spec factory ammo. It should fit all rifles.

Plunk tests are only for that specific firearm. I dont do plunk tests coz my ammo is for all my guns in the same caliber.

[pacrat]

Originally Posted by MarikinaMan

There is no tolerance stacking here.

The rifle chamber is a hole, it is expected to be SAMI spec.

Die is a hole, same and adjustable.

Case gauge is hole, and is expected to be SAMI spec.

That said the gauge is the control. With a decent gauge and die, the user should be able to make SAMI spec ammo with a properly adjusted die, if he is half decent at knowing that he is doing.

If it doesnt fit the chamber, then something is wrong with the chamber. Spec reloaded ammo is same as spec factory ammo. It should fit all rifles.

Plunk tests are only for that specific firearm. I dont do plunk tests coz my ammo is for all my guns in the same caliber.

STRONGLY SUGGEST you read posts #32 and #46 by Randall. Wherein [SAAMI SPEC] is aptly explained. Because {SAAMI SPEC} IS NOT A FIXED DIM. Some, SAAMI SPEC dims. are +/- a given number. Some are only - a given number. With a listed Max. When those varying [SAAMI SPECs] conflict as Randall explained. That is cause for crap to not fit. Commonly referred to as tolerance stacking.

Your entire post is based on your own misconception of what you think, SHOULD BE............................ NOT WHAT ACTUALLY IS.

As to the bolded in your post.

That is an assumption. Based on your misconception of WHAT IS. Before even trying to determine why an issue exists.

Yes, sizer dies are HOLEs that are adjustable. But only for length. NOT DIAMETER. Even though OP is using a SB die. Cut to SAAMI spec. His cases are possibly expanded BELOW the reach of his die. In which instance the resolution of the issue requires a "ROLL SIZER" or a "PUSH THROUGH" die.

And the "underlined" in your post shows that you don't realize that Factory Ammo for rifles. Is typically sized a "LITTLE UNDER" actual SAAMI SPECs to mitigate the tolerance stacking that is always present in all things made on machines.

And a "gage" is NOT a CONTROL. It is a shortcut. To actually chamber checking.

Bottom line is that ONLY one hole matters. And it is the CHAMBER.