Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > FIREARMS DISCUSSIONS > Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-21-2021, 10:20 PM
USMCM16A2 USMCM16A2 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,944
iTrader: 123 / 100%
Default Thoughts on carbon fiber barrels, for long range target?

Any thoughts on carbon fiber wrapped barrels for long range target? A2
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-21-2021, 11:13 PM
G-forceJunkie's Avatar
G-forceJunkie G-forceJunkie is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SCV, So. Cal
Posts: 5,919
iTrader: 37 / 100%
Default

My experience is they are crap, but my data is 20 years old so maybe they are better now. It behaved like a lightweight sporter barrel, heated up fast and groupings were trash untill I put a pressure pad on the stock.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-22-2021, 6:31 AM
dizzyblonde dizzyblonde is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 123
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

A very few PRS competitors use them but I can only assume that they're not paying for their barrels. I've never seen any on the F-class line. I assume that's because F-class is expensive enough without CF barrels. CF are just more expensive IMHO. The ones I've been able to use a lot were just as accurate as any of my match guns with conventional barrels. Made hunting with a heavy barrel profile a lot more pleasant. If weight is a major issue, they do deliver on lighter overall weight but so far it seems like an answer to a question nobody asked. Long range usually has high round counts and/or highly overbore chamberings which are hard on barrel life. CF wrapped barrels end up double or more than the cost of a fine non-CF custom barrel.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-22-2021, 6:33 AM
kendog4570's Avatar
kendog4570 kendog4570 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Oakhurst, CA
Posts: 5,111
iTrader: 33 / 100%
Default

Bling, bling, bling......
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-22-2021, 8:51 AM
yacko yacko is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 433
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

They hold heat since CF is an insulator.

Shooting strings will really heat up the barrel.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-22-2021, 9:25 AM
Epaphroditus's Avatar
Epaphroditus Epaphroditus is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Where the McRib runs wild and free!
Posts: 4,876
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Don't put a solution in play before clearly identifying a problem first.

Never use geewhizz technology to address a skill deficiency.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-22-2021, 11:05 AM
yacko yacko is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 433
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Also... Since you asked about long range target...

Weight really isnt an issue.... Why not just get a premium stainless heavy barrel?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-22-2021, 11:28 AM
JackEllis JackEllis is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: NorCal Mountains
Posts: 2,731
iTrader: 64 / 100%
Default

If you want to spend some money, why not? If you're trying to improve your ability to hit the target at that distance, it seems to me you'd be better off using whatever rifle you have that can reach that far and focus on learning how to read the wind, which is likely to have a much better return on investment in time and money than an expensive barrel.

Probably not what you want to hear but at that distance, wind is going to be a much bigger factor than any improvements you might or might not realize from a stiffer barrel. For example, a factory load for a .30-06 Springfield with Hornady 150 grain SSTs drifts roughly 3 MOA for every 5 MPH of wind. I might be wrong about this but it seems like the difference between a sporter barrel and a varmint barrel isn't going to be nearly as important.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-22-2021, 12:03 PM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 7,911
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

If you have a weight limit you can't reach it makes sense but if weight isn't an issue they tend to be pricey.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr.
Southwest Regional Director
Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA)
www.unlimitedrange.org
Not a commercial business.
URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-22-2021, 12:58 PM
sigstroker sigstroker is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: not in CA
Posts: 17,344
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzyblonde View Post
A very few PRS competitors use them but I can only assume that they're not paying for their barrels. I've never seen any on the F-class line. I assume that's because F-class is expensive enough without CF barrels. CF are just more expensive IMHO. The ones I've been able to use a lot were just as accurate as any of my match guns with conventional barrels. Made hunting with a heavy barrel profile a lot more pleasant. If weight is a major issue, they do deliver on lighter overall weight but so far it seems like an answer to a question nobody asked. Long range usually has high round counts and/or highly overbore chamberings which are hard on barrel life. CF wrapped barrels end up double or more than the cost of a fine non-CF custom barrel.
PRS guys aren't looking to save weight.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-22-2021, 1:37 PM
Garbcollector Garbcollector is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Inland empire
Posts: 974
iTrader: 29 / 100%
Default

For hunting yes benchrest no
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-22-2021, 1:48 PM
DDRH's Avatar
DDRH DDRH is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor - Lifetime
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,756
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Default

Carbon wrapped bbl for hunting. Stainless for matches.

Check out Bartlein's new material 400MODBB, suppose to have better barrel life.

You can also order the new material with carbon fiber wrap.

But wait times are very long nowadays.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-22-2021, 2:01 PM
deckhandmike's Avatar
deckhandmike deckhandmike is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Morro Bay
Posts: 8,168
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Even the proof competition team uses steel barrels for contests. That should tell you what you need to know. I do want one for hunting though.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-22-2021, 7:46 PM
Fjold's Avatar
Fjold Fjold is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Commonwealth of Kentucky
Posts: 22,315
iTrader: 29 / 100%
Default

Look at what the bench rest guys shoot. When only accuracy matters, everyone shoots stainless steel.
__________________
Frank

One rifle, one planet, Holland's 375

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/Fjold/member8325.png

Life Member NRA, CRPA and SAF
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-23-2021, 6:51 AM
Mute's Avatar
Mute Mute is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Diamond Bar
Posts: 8,091
iTrader: 40 / 100%
Default

High quality ones are good, but I would only go with the extra expense if saving weight is the primary concern. Just for the record, I do have a Proof barrel for my AI and I love the weight saving. It doesn't sacrifice any accuracy, but it's not inherently more accurate than my non CF barrels either. I got it just for the weight savings.
__________________
NRA Benefactor Life Member
NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle & Refuse To Be A Victim Instructor

American Marksman Training Group
Visit our American Marksman Facebook Page
Diamond Bar CCW Facebook Page


NRA Memberships at Discounted fee
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-25-2021, 2:51 PM
hambam105 hambam105 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 7,078
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

What kind of guarantee is there that any California Deer or Wild Hog will automatically know he has to
die faster from a single hit fired from CF barrel compared with a conventual rifle barrel?
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-25-2021, 3:58 PM
deckhandmike's Avatar
deckhandmike deckhandmike is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Morro Bay
Posts: 8,168
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hambam105 View Post
What kind of guarantee is there that any California Deer or Wild Hog will automatically know he has to
die faster from a single hit fired from CF barrel compared with a conventual rifle barrel?
CF barrels are about weight saving. Which is huge if you actually hunt.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-26-2021, 10:35 PM
CWL's Avatar
CWL CWL is offline
Senior Member
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,488
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yacko View Post
They hold heat since CF is an insulator.
No! Actually it's the opposite.

CF is an incredibly efficient heat conductor and dissipator. The reason a CF wrapped barrel feels hot is because the CF brings the heat away from the steel and to the surface to dissipate.

OTOH, stainless is a very poor conductor of heat and will hold heat closer to the rifling for longer and will dissipate heat at a slower rate.
__________________
Vae Victis
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-27-2021, 3:48 AM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 7,911
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

6. Heat conduction
Carbon fiber is a material with low heat conduction characteristics.

Carbon fiber thermal conductivity
Carbon fiber is a perfect insulator– the above photo shows a carbon fiber turbine inlet.
Heat conduction mainly depends on transfer/conduction of energy from areas of high temperature to areas of low temperature. Highly heat conductive materials transfer temperature more easily than materials with low heat conductivity.

Composite made from carbon fiber and epoxy resin is a material with heat conductivity x 40 times less than aluminium and 10 times less than steel. Therefore the assumption may be made that carbon fiber is a very good insulator.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr.
Southwest Regional Director
Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA)
www.unlimitedrange.org
Not a commercial business.
URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-27-2021, 4:05 AM
nedro nedro is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Campbell
Posts: 4,125
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CWL View Post
No! Actually it's the opposite.

CF is an incredibly efficient heat conductor and dissipator. The reason a CF wrapped barrel feels hot is because the CF brings the heat away from the steel and to the surface to dissipate.

OTOH, stainless is a very poor conductor of heat and will hold heat closer to the rifling for longer and will dissipate heat at a slower rate.
I think the mistake you are making has to do with less steel in the barrel cooling faster than a larger amount of steel in a conventional barrel.

The hype language from the product pushers can get confusing if not purposely misleading.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 08-27-2021, 4:55 AM
Scotty Scotty is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sacto
Posts: 1,075
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Actually carbon fiber is both a bad and good thermal conductor. Normal cf is bad. But there are some with really high thermal conductivity cf made for satellites, $$$$$.

The other problem you run into is thermal expansion, more the lack of thermal expansion in cf, creating stresses in the steel barrel.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 08-27-2021, 8:44 AM
yacko yacko is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 433
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

In the 90's the very first CF motorcycle exhaust I saw... The rider stopped and the rest of us looking at it.... he says Check this out! And grabs the can.....

Everyone else looking with jaws on the pavement... and goes up to touch it.

It was rather warm... but a regular can would instantly melt the top layer of your skin.

Yep.... sounds like an insulator to me.....
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 08-27-2021, 7:04 PM
Scotty Scotty is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sacto
Posts: 1,075
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yacko View Post
Yep.... sounds like an insulator to me.....
Like I said there are high thermal conductivity carbon fiber developed for space applications. The thermal conductivity is over twice that of copper.

https://sanyocorp.com/pitch-based-carbon-fiber/
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 08-27-2021, 7:39 PM
CWL's Avatar
CWL CWL is offline
Senior Member
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,488
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yacko View Post
In the 90's the very first CF motorcycle exhaust I saw... The rider stopped and the rest of us looking at it.... he says Check this out! And grabs the can.....

Everyone else looking with jaws on the pavement... and goes up to touch it.

It was rather warm... but a regular can would instantly melt the top layer of your skin.

Yep.... sounds like an insulator to me.....
Nope, what that meant is that the CF exhaust has already dissipated the heat to the point where you could touch it. Think about it. You want an exhaust to dissipate heat quickly -not hold it in, unable to escape. Same for rifle barrels.

Now LynnJr,
Since you didn't link your quote, I have no idea where it's from, although it looks to be a very specific application for aeronautical turbine blades made from special resins, so I don't think it applies to standard CF materials supplied in sheets.

Carbon Fiber is "carbon" threads, which have a thermal conductivity of about 500 W/mK (watts per meter-kelvin), compared with about 400 W/mK for copper. It is an efficient heat conductor.
__________________
Vae Victis
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 08-27-2021, 7:57 PM
sigstroker sigstroker is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: not in CA
Posts: 17,344
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CWL View Post
Nope, what that meant is that the CF exhaust has already dissipated the heat to the point where you could touch it. Think about it. You want an exhaust to dissipate heat quickly -not hold it in, unable to escape. Same for rifle barrels.

Now LynnJr,
Since you didn't link your quote, I have no idea where it's from, although it looks to be a very specific application for aeronautical turbine blades made from special resins, so I don't think it applies to standard CF materials supplied in sheets.

Carbon Fiber is "carbon" threads, which have a thermal conductivity of about 500 W/mK (watts per meter-kelvin), compared with about 400 W/mK for copper. It is an efficient heat conductor.
What about the resin? Your hands never actually touch carbon.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 08-27-2021, 8:00 PM
Scotty Scotty is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sacto
Posts: 1,075
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CWL View Post
Carbon Fiber is "carbon" threads, which have a thermal conductivity of about 500 W/mK (watts per meter-kelvin), compared with about 400 W/mK for copper. It is an efficient heat conductor.
The typical carbon fiber like Toray T300 or T700 has a thermal conductivity down at 20-40 W/mK.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 08-27-2021, 8:50 PM
CWL's Avatar
CWL CWL is offline
Senior Member
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,488
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sigstroker View Post
What about the resin? Your hands never actually touch carbon.
True, but if you can feel heat pass through, the resin probably does not insulate.

I was recently amused to discover the high-end cookware maker, All-Clad is selling $$$ cookware made from CF sandwiched between 2 sheets of stainless. Their claim is that these pots conduct heat faster & more evenly than their copper & aluminum lined pots.
__________________
Vae Victis

Last edited by CWL; 08-27-2021 at 8:59 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 08-27-2021, 8:54 PM
CWL's Avatar
CWL CWL is offline
Senior Member
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,488
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty View Post
The typical carbon fiber like Toray T300 or T700 has a thermal conductivity down at 20-40 W/mK.
Don't know, but isn't Toray a maker of aeronautical applications like drone frames? Perhaps the materials are prepared to be insulative. Still does not take-away the conductivity of actual CF itself. There would be no change mollecularly, with carbon threads formed & weaved into CF, it would be what resins & other composites are used.
__________________
Vae Victis
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 08-27-2021, 9:29 PM
Scotty Scotty is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sacto
Posts: 1,075
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Toray is one of the largest suppliers of carbon fiber used in aerospace, automotive, and sporting goods.

I don't think you are understanding the actual behaviors of carbon fiber. CF can conducted thermal energy if it is applied to the length of the fiber, like a straw. However when the thermal energy is going across the width of the fiber, it becomes an insulator. Epoxy is also a good insulator. The fact that the fabric is laid on its side with an epoxy filler makes it a very good insulator.

It's only the high dollar space stuff that is actually thermally conductive. Your run of the mill
CF is an insulator.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 08-28-2021, 1:22 PM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 7,911
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

CWL
If it was as you claim everyone would be using it as heat is the biggest enemy of rifle barrels.
The manufacturers would be marketing it to high heaven but they aren't.
Ask yourself why.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr.
Southwest Regional Director
Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA)
www.unlimitedrange.org
Not a commercial business.
URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards!
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 08-30-2021, 2:17 PM
smoothy8500's Avatar
smoothy8500 smoothy8500 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 3,681
iTrader: 26 / 100%
Default

Notice that PRS and F-class, both high round count shooting sports, don't readily go with CF barrels? Considering that there are some weight limitations they would be totally jumping on it. The general consensus is the heat kills the barrel accuracy.

Last edited by smoothy8500; 08-30-2021 at 2:20 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 10-17-2021, 12:32 PM
stomach stomach is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: greater los angeles, pasadena/san gabriel valley
Posts: 1,109
iTrader: 90 / 92%
Default Finally someone.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by CWL View Post
No! Actually it's the opposite.

CF is an incredibly efficient heat conductor and dissipator. The reason a CF wrapped barrel feels hot is because the CF brings the heat away from the steel and to the surface to dissipate.

OTOH, stainless is a very poor conductor of heat and will hold heat closer to the rifling for longer and will dissipate heat at a slower rate.
who knows what they are talking about instead of just opins...
carbon fiber barrels are great if you can afford it,
since you are asking, you probably can afford it.
So, go for it. IT is very nice and very accurate.
I've Christensen and I love mine.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 10-26-2021, 8:23 AM
OlderThanDirt's Avatar
OlderThanDirt OlderThanDirt is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Dumbfookistan
Posts: 5,307
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Besides the weight savings, a CF barrel pushes a rifle center of balance back towards the receiver, making a long hold on a target much easier.
__________________
Quote:
We know they are lying, they know they are lying, they know we know they are lying, we know they know we know they are lying, but they are still lying. ~ Solzhenitsyn
Thermidorian Reaction . . Prepare for it.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 11-03-2021, 9:52 AM
stjefferson stjefferson is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Posts: 53
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Heavy guns are more stable and comfortable for long range target shooting
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 5:12 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2021, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.



Seams2SewBySusy