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  #1281  
Old 12-26-2020, 1:36 AM
elcapitan29 elcapitan29 is offline
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Trapp you're a legend. Absolute legend. You just saved my bacon on this C&R transfer. Thank you. Hopefully the seller wants to still sell the super x seems like a great bird hunting shotgun
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  #1282  
Old 12-26-2020, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by elcapitan29 View Post
Trapp you're a legend. Absolute legend. You just saved my bacon on this C&R transfer. Thank you. Hopefully the seller wants to still sell the super x seems like a great bird hunting shotgun
It's a good shotgun, well balanced, just too little, and too late. In the early 80's, the bottom started to drop out of the shotgun market.
I do wonder what it could have been, if they had let Miroku do the design.
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  #1283  
Old 01-07-2021, 10:13 PM
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How about a Model 94 serial number 115780

Thank you for your time and effort to correct the dates
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  #1284  
Old 01-08-2021, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by California12120 View Post
How about a Model 94 serial number 115780

Thank you for your time and effort to correct the dates
Made mid 1901, with 33,126 made that year.
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  #1285  
Old 04-14-2021, 6:19 PM
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What would 1897s, 417,xxx and 525,xxx be? Madis book dates to 1909 and 1913.

also have 94 lever 1,062,xxx and 3,670,xxx that Madis book dates to 1929 & 1972 and 1892 588,xxx that Madis book dates to 1911.

Thank You.
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  #1286  
Old 04-14-2021, 6:46 PM
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1897, #417,xxx, made early half of 1908, with 39,667 made.

1897, #525,xxx, made early half of 1911, with 30,439 made.

1894, #1,062,xxx, made 1st quarter of 1930, with 10,521 made.

1894, #3,670,xxx, made 1972.

1892, #588,xxx, made 1st quarter of 1911, 64,308 made.

Madis got two out of five right, I guess a blind squirrel can find an acorn now and then.
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  #1287  
Old 04-14-2021, 6:52 PM
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Originally Posted by TRAP55 View Post
1897, #417,xxx, made early half of 1908, with 39,667 made.

1897, #525,xxx, made early half of 1911, with 30,439 made.

1894, #1,062,xxx, made 1st quarter of 1930, with 10,521 made.

1894, #3,670,xxx, made 1972.

1892, #588,xxx, made 1st quarter of 1911, 64,308 made.

Madis got two out of five right, I guess a blind squirrel can find an acorn now and then.
Thank You.
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  #1288  
Old 04-15-2021, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by TMB 1 View Post
Thank You.
You are most welcome!
Your two 97's, and the pre war 1894, would be of interest to Bert Hartman for his surveys, and the 1892 for Michael's survey. Every gun they add to the data base, adds to the information lost years ago. They both can tell you more about your Winchesters, than I could possibly do here.
Contact Bert at: win1885@msn.com. Put "Winchester Survey" as the subject, and tell him Trap sent ya.
To contact Michael: 2bitrifles@gmail.com
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  #1289  
Old 04-15-2021, 3:59 PM
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Originally Posted by TRAP55 View Post
You are most welcome!
Your two 97's, and the pre war 1894, would be of interest to Bert Hartman for his surveys, and the 1892 for Michael's survey. Every gun they add to the data base, adds to the information lost years ago. They both can tell you more about your Winchesters, than I could possibly do here.
Contact Bert at: win1885@msn.com. Put "Winchester Survey" as the subject, and tell him Trap sent ya.
To contact Michael: 2bitrifles@gmail.com
You can tell them if you want.

The 1908, 1897 was my great grandpa's, I don't know if he bought it new but he could have, he was 43 in 1908 so it is possible.

The 1930, 1894 30-30 belonged to the same great grandpa or my grandpa who was 15 in 1930. Grandpa was his youngest kid.

The 1892, 25-20 originally belonged to one of my other great grandpa's uncle I think and is likely he bought it new. Great grandpa gave it to my dad in the 1950s.

The 1911, 1897 I bought at a lgs 10 or 15 years ago, so I don't know any of it's history.
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  #1290  
Old 05-21-2021, 7:08 AM
bulletsnbrew bulletsnbrew is offline
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winchester model 12 ser# 965092 i believe its a trench or riot

Last edited by bulletsnbrew; 05-21-2021 at 9:11 AM..
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  #1291  
Old 05-21-2021, 2:17 PM
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Made in 1942, with a record production of 105,207 made that year. Stock, receiver, and barrel details, will tell if it was made as a Riot or Trench model.

Last edited by TRAP55; 05-21-2021 at 11:47 PM..
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  #1292  
Old 05-21-2021, 7:07 PM
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Can you tell me anything about my 1894 sn 1465615?

Thanks
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  #1293  
Old 05-21-2021, 11:47 PM
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Can you tell me anything about my 1894 sn 1465615?

Thanks
Made in 1947, with 59,000 made that year.
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  #1294  
Old 05-25-2021, 8:14 AM
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Originally Posted by TRAP55 View Post
Made in 1942, with a record production of 105,207 made that year. Stock, receiver, and barrel details, will tell if it was made as a Riot or Trench model.
stock is marked G.H.D. with the cross cannons, receiver has U.S. and the flaming bomb under the ejection port, barrel has the flaming bomb and PW proof stamp, serials match, barrel appears to have the grooves under it for the heat shield attachment, barrel measures 20.5 inches
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  #1295  
Old 05-25-2021, 11:27 AM
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All the indicators of a Trench. I'm guessing no heat shield/bayo lug?
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  #1296  
Old 05-26-2021, 7:21 AM
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Originally Posted by TRAP55 View Post
All the indicators of a Trench. I'm guessing no heat shield/bayo lug?
yep missing the heat shield and lug, also missing the rear sling swivel, plan on trying to bring it back to original
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  #1297  
Old 05-26-2021, 11:04 AM
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Made in 1947, with 59,000 made that year.
Thanks!!
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  #1298  
Old 06-06-2021, 7:18 AM
sierrsurf sierrsurf is online now
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Hi Trap55

I had Winchester 1894 857317. It was stolen in 2015. Its a gun would love returned. Seemed Nevada County Sheriff's office is not to concerned w/ stolen guns as about 10 were stolen and a couple they (NCS) forgot to add to National Stolen Gun dbase. So if by chance you see/hear anything on that SN? I would appreciate it. Even go so far as a Reward since someone else is doing NCS's job fo them.
** in 2017 ElDorado County a drug bust and a couple of my guns were involved. So I did get those back yet NO (yeppers None Notta) charges were brought up against those arrested. Fact is the Police Report for the Drug bust had the criminals information (i.e. name, address) and ALL pertinent case info blacked out. So steal a gun in California & if you get caught: Please return to it rightful owner.

Last edited by sierrsurf; 06-06-2021 at 7:22 AM..
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  #1299  
Old 07-08-2021, 6:14 AM
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What year was my Model 1894 serial #2xxx produced? Iím guessing within the first year or two. Thanks
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  #1300  
Old 07-10-2021, 1:40 PM
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What year was my Model 1894 serial #2xxx produced? Iím guessing within the first year or two. Thanks
Made in 1895, with 12,548 made that year.
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  #1301  
Old 07-15-2021, 8:17 PM
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Thanks
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  #1302  
Old 08-14-2021, 1:02 AM
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I'll play! Please let me know about these Winchesters I have, and if the date I have is correct:

1) WINCHESTER MOD 1894 RIFLE, 30 WRF OCT TAKE DWN BBL, SER#85XXX MFG 1897

2) WINCHESTER SADDLE RING CARBINE 25-35 WCF SER# 504XXX MFG 1909

3) WINCHESTER MOD 1890 GALLERY GUN 22 WRF TAKE DOWN BBL SER# 773XXX MFG 1941

4) WINCHESTER MOD 52 22 LR SER# 23XXX MFG 1932

Thank you!
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  #1303  
Old 08-14-2021, 2:01 PM
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1) WINCHESTER MOD 1894 RIFLE, 30 WRF OCT TAKE DWN BBL, SER#85XXX MFG 1897 = Made 1900

2) WINCHESTER SADDLE RING CARBINE 25-35 WCF SER# 504XXX MFG 1909 = Made 1911

3) WINCHESTER MOD 1890 GALLERY GUN 22 WRF TAKE DOWN BBL SER# 773XXX MFG 1941 = Made 1928

4) WINCHESTER MOD 52 22 LR SER# 23XXX MFG 1932 = Made 1931
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  #1304  
Old 10-15-2021, 11:28 AM
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If you read my OP on page one, you'll have a better understanding of this exchange between Bert Hartman and George Madis Jr, who incidentally had no come back after being put in his place with the facts.
George Madis Jr:
Hello Bert,let me set you strait on something. My Dad, the late George Madis, conducted all of the research for his books at the Cody museum and at the Winchester plant. At the time that he was researching he used factory records that were made available to him at the time. John Olin pointed him in the direction of the warehouse where records of shipping and production were stored. At the Buffalo Bill Historical Center the curator at the time made what records were still in existence available to him. He at no time guessed or made up figures to fill in the many gaps in the company records. He also consulted with old employees who had kept records since some of them were inside contractors and had to keep accurate records since they were paid by the piece, so unless they kept good records they would be shorting themselves on their paycheck. The former inside contractors or their heirs with their old ledgers helped to fill in the missing information. At no time was he ever made aware that the polishing room had kept records on manufacture or assembly,nor was anyone else aware of the PR ledgers. He used the records and resources that were available, nobody knew that the polishing room records ever existed until a few years ago. I really don't appreciate you trashing my father's many years of experience, research and writing just to promote your new book. You know, it's been said that nobody can write a book alone and many times he had to rely on the information that was placed before him by others and he relied on that information being accurate because it was the only information available at the time.

Bert Hartman:
In regards to your posted comments, I have to vehemently disagree with your quoted statement above. There are at least three other authors who were fully aware of, and more importantly, they studied and used the PR records for their books more than 35-years ago. Specifically, Herbert G. House (former Winchester Museum Curator), Roger Rule, and Ned Schwing were all aware of the PR records, and they used them in their various reference books; House - The Model 52; Rule - The Rifleman's Rifle; and Schwing - The Model 1890 & 1906 Slide Actions. Roger Rule reviewed and used the information as early as the late 1970s. House and Schwing did so at nearly the same time. It was because of those three individuals that I became aware of the mistakes that your father published. As for when they came to light at the Cody Museum, it was in the year 2005 (nearly 12-years ago). Based on your written post, it appears that you have taken the same approach to proper (accurate) research that your father did.

Finally, and for what it is worth to you, none of what I have researched and written about concerning Winchester dates of manufacture for the past 35+ years has anything to do with promoting my book... instead, it has to do with providing those who wish to learn, with the accurate researched facts. The unfortunate byproduct of Roger's, Ned's, Herb's, and my own research, is that it concretely proves that your father George did not do enough research of his own, and that he should not have relied so heavily on the information supplied to him by others as much as he did. And Yes, with enough effort and research, a book can be written alone, but it certainly helps to have assistance.
Regards,
Bert H. - WACA Historian
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  #1305  
Old 10-20-2021, 5:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRAP55 View Post
If you read my OP on page one, you'll have a better understanding of this exchange between Bert Hartman and George Madis Jr, who incidentally had no come back after being put in his place with the facts.
George Madis Jr:
Hello Bert,let me set you strait on something. My Dad, the late George Madis, conducted all of the research for his books at the Cody museum and at the Winchester plant. At the time that he was researching he used factory records that were made available to him at the time. John Olin pointed him in the direction of the warehouse where records of shipping and production were stored. At the Buffalo Bill Historical Center the curator at the time made what records were still in existence available to him. He at no time guessed or made up figures to fill in the many gaps in the company records. He also consulted with old employees who had kept records since some of them were inside contractors and had to keep accurate records since they were paid by the piece, so unless they kept good records they would be shorting themselves on their paycheck. The former inside contractors or their heirs with their old ledgers helped to fill in the missing information. At no time was he ever made aware that the polishing room had kept records on manufacture or assembly,nor was anyone else aware of the PR ledgers. He used the records and resources that were available, nobody knew that the polishing room records ever existed until a few years ago. I really don't appreciate you trashing my father's many years of experience, research and writing just to promote your new book. You know, it's been said that nobody can write a book alone and many times he had to rely on the information that was placed before him by others and he relied on that information being accurate because it was the only information available at the time.

Bert Hartman:
In regards to your posted comments, I have to vehemently disagree with your quoted statement above. There are at least three other authors who were fully aware of, and more importantly, they studied and used the PR records for their books more than 35-years ago. Specifically, Herbert G. House (former Winchester Museum Curator), Roger Rule, and Ned Schwing were all aware of the PR records, and they used them in their various reference books; House - The Model 52; Rule - The Rifleman's Rifle; and Schwing - The Model 1890 & 1906 Slide Actions. Roger Rule reviewed and used the information as early as the late 1970s. House and Schwing did so at nearly the same time. It was because of those three individuals that I became aware of the mistakes that your father published. As for when they came to light at the Cody Museum, it was in the year 2005 (nearly 12-years ago). Based on your written post, it appears that you have taken the same approach to proper (accurate) research that your father did.

Finally, and for what it is worth to you, none of what I have researched and written about concerning Winchester dates of manufacture for the past 35+ years has anything to do with promoting my book... instead, it has to do with providing those who wish to learn, with the accurate researched facts. The unfortunate byproduct of Roger's, Ned's, Herb's, and my own research, is that it concretely proves that your father George did not do enough research of his own, and that he should not have relied so heavily on the information supplied to him by others as much as he did. And Yes, with enough effort and research, a book can be written alone, but it certainly helps to have assistance.
Regards,
Bert H. - WACA Historian
Trap55, you are one of the best assets to Calguns
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  #1306  
Old 10-21-2021, 7:51 AM
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Originally Posted by TRAP55 View Post
The unfortunate byproduct of Roger's, Ned's, Herb's, and my own research, is that it concretely proves that your father George did not do enough research of his own, and that he should not have relied so heavily on the information supplied to him by others as much as he did.
Ouch.

I still like to read the Madis book, though. It has some very useful pictures and illustrations.
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  #1307  
Old 10-21-2021, 7:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
Ouch.

I still like to read the Madis book, though. It has some very useful pictures and illustrations.
You know Bert, that was him being polite!

freonr22, thanks, but if that's true, it's better than being one when my ex ran out of money.
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  #1308  
Old 11-24-2021, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRAP55 View Post
1) WINCHESTER MOD 1894 RIFLE, 30 WRF OCT TAKE DWN BBL, SER#85XXX MFG 1897 = Made 1900

2) WINCHESTER SADDLE RING CARBINE 25-35 WCF SER# 504XXX MFG 1909 = Made 1911

3) WINCHESTER MOD 1890 GALLERY GUN 22 WRF TAKE DOWN BBL SER# 773XXX MFG 1941 = Made 1928

4) WINCHESTER MOD 52 22 LR SER# 23XXX MFG 1932 = Made 1931
Thank you, sir! I guess I was a little off on my dates!
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