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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #1  
Old 04-04-2021, 10:57 PM
Geofois Geofois is offline
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Default Krag front sight blade

Hey guys,
Took the Krag Cavalry Carbine out for the first time today. I'm shooting 4-6" high at 50 yards depending on load but 6" was at 2200 fps with 165g projectile. If I go up to 2350 ish I'll probably end up a little higher. Was the battle sight when the rear sight is flipped down set for a zero of 200 or 300 yards? I saw somewhere mentioning 400-500 yards also. I see Numrich has a front sight blade .413" high and my current one is .294". I think I only need 1mm so .33" ish to get it at 100 yards but I'll have to check next week at the range to say for sure. I'm about 1 inch to the left at 50 yards also but I don't think there is a windage adjustment on the 1898 Krag. If it's supposed to be that high then maybe I'll leave it but I can always switch it back. Maybe I can finangle a piece of brass and trim it till it's right on at 100 yards.

Last edited by Geofois; 04-04-2021 at 10:59 PM..
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Old 04-05-2021, 12:35 AM
hambam105 hambam105 is online now
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Targets were much taller in the olden days. That is why it shoot high.
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Old 04-05-2021, 12:49 AM
Geofois Geofois is offline
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Hah =P.

I did check with hornady's online ballistic calculator. I ran 220 grain with bc of .294 at 2000 fps and it hits just about 6 inches high at 50 yards with a 300 zero. That's probably what it's zero is supposed to be. Looks like it will be even higher at 100 yards as its still climbing at that point. I am changing a front sight on an M1903 so maybe i can repurpose the old sight blade somehow.

I was noticing the newer 1901 or something krag rear sights were upgraded with a peep. I wonder if I can get a 1903 part from that sight and see if it will fit and then use the peep. Just thinking outloud. It wouldn't be anything permanent.
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Old 04-05-2021, 7:24 AM
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The rear sight designs are completely different, but they do use the same screw holes in the receiver (albeit different screw heights).
I just bought a 1902 rear sight to put on my 1896 carbine because it shoots 2" to the right at 50 yards, and the early model sights have no windage adjustment.
I've also been having issues with the front sight because the previous owner had aftermarket Lyman sights installed. I know why he sold it.
Stupid thing shot 1' low at 50 yards when I first got it home.
I've been trying to get it right for a year and a half.
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Old 04-05-2021, 9:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geofois View Post
Hey guys,
Took the Krag Cavalry Carbine out for the first time today. I'm shooting 4-6" high at 50 yards depending on load but 6" was at 2200 fps with 165g projectile. If I go up to 2350 ish I'll probably end up a little higher. Was the battle sight when the rear sight is flipped down set for a zero of 200 or 300 yards? I saw somewhere mentioning 400-500 yards also. I see Numrich has a front sight blade .413" high and my current one is .294". I think I only need 1mm so .33" ish to get it at 100 yards but I'll have to check next week at the range to say for sure. I'm about 1 inch to the left at 50 yards also but I don't think there is a windage adjustment on the 1898 Krag. If it's supposed to be that high then maybe I'll leave it but I can always switch it back. Maybe I can finangle a piece of brass and trim it till it's right on at 100 yards.
Shoot it at 100yds before you worry about how far off you are at 50yds.
The bullet is NORMALLY high at 50yds to land on target at 100yds with an iron sighted rifle.

There is 2.9" more drop occurring from line of bore from 50yds to 100yds with a 165gr sierra softpoint going 2200fps.

Code:
 Tabular trajectory data at Std.ICAO Atmosphere
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Gun / Ammunition : 223
 Bullet Type      : .308, 165, Sierra SPBT 2145
 Bullet Weight    : 165 grains or 10.69 Grams
 Muzzle Velocity  : 2200 fps
 Twist Length     : 11.0 in.  (RH)
 Gyro.  Stability : 1.84
 Crosswind Speed  : 10.0 Mph 
 Ballistic Coefficient(s) (G1) :
 C1_1=0.397@V>2400 fps;
 C1_2=0.402@V>1600 fps;
 C1_3=0.412@V>0 fps;
 C1_4=0.251@V>0 fps;


 Optimum trajectory information : 
 Optimum sight-in range (X) = 155 Yds. 
 with max. ordinate above LOS at range (M)= 85 Yds.
 and max. point blank range (P)= 182 Yds.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Sight-in clicks, 1 click = 9.144 cm/100 yd. or 3.60 in/100 yd.
 Height of sight above bore axis = 1.905 cm or 0.75 inch
 Gun is zeroed-in at 300 yds,
 by sighting-in at level firing
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Range  Velo Time of  Energy   Path   Spin / Wind-  Total  Sight correction  Target
        city  flight            to     dage, Wind    drop   for setting new   lead
                                LOS    of 10.0 Mph             zero range     33 fps
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ˇYards   fps     s    ft.lbs.   in.    in.     MOA     in.   Clicks     MOA     yds ˇ
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|    0  2200  0.0000   1773    -0.8    0.0   -----     0.0   ------    -----    0.00
|   25  2157  0.0345   1705    +2.3   -0.1   -0.26     0.2     -2.5    -8.66    0.38
|   50  2115  0.0696   1639    +4.8   -0.2   -0.43     0.9     -2.7    -9.21    0.76
|   75  2074  0.1053   1575    +6.9   -0.5   -0.60     2.1     -2.6    -8.78    1.15
|  100  2032  0.1415   1513    +8.5   -0.8   -0.77     3.8     -2.4    -8.09    1.55
|  125  1992  0.1781   1453    +9.6   -1.2   -0.90     5.9     -2.1    -7.30    1.95
|  150  1951  0.2156   1394   +10.1   -1.7   -1.09     8.6     -1.9    -6.43    2.36
M  161  1933  0.2325   1369   +10.2   -2.0   -1.19    10.0     -1.8    -6.03    2.54
|  175  1911  0.2543   1338   +10.1   -2.4   -1.33    11.9     -1.6    -5.49    2.78
|  200  1872  0.2940   1284    +9.4   -3.3   -1.60    15.8     -1.3    -4.49    3.22
|  225  1834  0.3349   1232    +8.1   -4.4   -1.88    20.4     -1.0    -3.43    3.66
|  250  1796  0.3767   1181    +6.1   -5.7   -2.16    25.6     -0.7    -2.33    4.12
|  275  1759  0.4194   1133    +3.4   -7.0   -2.45    31.6     -0.3    -1.18    4.59
X  300  1722  0.4631   1086     0.0   -8.6   -2.73    38.2      0.0     0.00    5.06
That rifle has a 300yd battlesight.
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Last edited by ar15barrels; 04-05-2021 at 9:40 AM..
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Old 04-05-2021, 9:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by operavoice View Post
The rear sight designs are completely different, but they do use the same screw holes in the receiver (albeit different screw heights).
I just bought a 1902 rear sight to put on my 1896 carbine because it shoots 2" to the right at 50 yards, and the early model sights have no windage adjustment.
I've also been having issues with the front sight because the previous owner had aftermarket Lyman sights installed. I know why he sold it.
Stupid thing shot 1' low at 50 yards when I first got it home.
I've been trying to get it right for a year and a half.
When I got my M1 Carbine it had a filed front sight so I just had to order another one and file it till it was grouping fine at 100 yards. I'll probably need to do the same for this. I'm only an inch to the left but I'd love to have a windage adjustment. When I looked at prices for Krag sights they were much higher in price than 1903 sights. Where did you get your rear sight and how many clams was it?

Battle sights seem to be zeroed for 300 yards so I'll probably be 10" high at 100 but I'll report back if I go next week. We barely got to shoot for 45 min since I didn't know Burro closed early for Easter =/. I was able to chrono my 3 loads for the krag so that was good. I'll see if I get get to 2400 fps with a 168g hpbt.
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Old 04-05-2021, 10:20 AM
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I picked it up on eBay, $138+ tax + 5.95 shipping.
Around $155, I think?
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Old 04-05-2021, 10:25 AM
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This might be cheesy but if I found a beat up ladder piece I could drill a hole and mount a piece of metal hanging down with a hole drilled in it so I can tilt a peep hole left or right then I would have windage and elevation using the original rear sight. But don't tell anyone I said that =P.

With slightly more thought maybe just a clip to snugly go over the ladder and it can be shifted left or right a couple mm so no need to drill. It would need to be a pretty snug fit. I've got my mickey mouse hat on now.

Last edited by Geofois; 04-05-2021 at 10:29 AM..
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Old 04-05-2021, 1:13 PM
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I just shaved about 1.5mm from the bottom of and and re-pinned the front sight, so hopefully I'll be on target height wise next time. It's really hard to say.
My Carbine doesn't have an OEM front sight mount either, it's some kind of Lyman thingamadoogie that's pinned on.

My last two range trips, I had to use the 400 yard rear sight adjustment to get it 3" below center at 50 yards. . . if I can hit somewhere in that range with the standard rear height (0-300), I can learn to live with it, just getting tired of sinking money into a poorly bubba'd gun.
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Old 04-05-2021, 2:00 PM
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How to invent a Getto Krag. Page 13.
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Old 04-05-2021, 2:25 PM
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How to invent a Getto Krag. Page 13.
Please send me pages 1-12 I won't be ghetto enough
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Old 04-05-2021, 2:33 PM
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Here's the thing.
I don't care what it looks like.
I don't care if it's mismatched parts, or a shaved stock, or a cut barrel, or any of that.
I care that it goes bang, and hits what I want it to hit.
It goes bang, but it don't hit what I want it to hit.

Anyway, I went to a sight correction calculator:
If I want to bull at 50 yards, and I'm 3" low, with a 16.25" sight radius, it looks like this:
3" low, 1800" to target, 16.35" sight radius = .027" front sight adj.
SO. . .

if I was able to make a 1.5mm (.059") front sight adjustment, that (ballparked) would take me from -3.0 and put me at +3.55" at 50 yards. assuming the 165gr/2200fps calculations above.

Which, ballparked again, should give me a zero in the 200-225 yard range if my math doesn't totally suck.

If I'm even remotely close to these theoretical numbers, it will at least be a gun I can work with, versus the dirt shooter I first took to the range.
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Old 04-05-2021, 2:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by operavoice View Post
I just shaved about 1.5mm from the bottom of and and re-pinned the front sight, so hopefully I'll be on target height wise next time. It's really hard to say.
My Carbine doesn't have an OEM front sight mount either, it's some kind of Lyman thingamadoogie that's pinned on.

My last two range trips, I had to use the 400 yard rear sight adjustment to get it 3" below center at 50 yards. . . if I can hit somewhere in that range with the standard rear height (0-300), I can learn to live with it, just getting tired of sinking money into a poorly bubba'd gun.
I was able to get some NOS carbine front sights from Sarco I think and redid mine and my brother's carbine and file little by little and now we're ok. I see a krag front sight blade on ebay with a brass bead that might be nice. The bead might block too much of the sight. I'd almost rather file a point so I don't block the orange of the target so much. I probably don't need to worry about filing so much since I can just move the rear sight adjustment. Since I'm not using 220 grain bullets I'm not going to be able to use it's calibration anyways. I'll be happy to get a group at 100 and just hit the target at 200.
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Old 04-05-2021, 4:19 PM
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I have the smaller of the two brass bead sights from eBay.
They are some kind of Lyman sight.
The smaller bead is a perfect fit for a stock rear sight, you just have to get the height right.
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Old 04-05-2021, 10:20 PM
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Here is a noob question. I only ask because I read a discussion where someone said to drift the sight blade pin out from the right to the left. I always thought drift to remove things was always left to right but maybe because the dove tail drifts out left to right then the pin is opposite?

I'm dumb and realized I just need to drift the front sight base to the left to get the poi to the right. Just a tap while at the range should do it or maybe I'll use a small vice. I have some other front sight tools for an Enfield and another rifle that might work to shift it.

Edit: I'm reading front sight bases would installed with a brazing. Is this true? If it is then I shouldn't just drift it.

Last edited by Geofois; 04-05-2021 at 10:37 PM..
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Old 04-06-2021, 6:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geofois View Post
Here is a noob question. I only ask because I read a discussion where someone said to drift the sight blade pin out from the right to the left. I always thought drift to remove things was always left to right but maybe because the dove tail drifts out left to right then the pin is opposite?

I'm dumb and realized I just need to drift the front sight base to the left to get the poi to the right. Just a tap while at the range should do it or maybe I'll use a small vice. I have some other front sight tools for an Enfield and another rifle that might work to shift it.

Edit: I'm reading front sight bases would installed with a brazing. Is this true? If it is then I shouldn't just drift it.
I'm trying to figure out what you are trying to do with your particular set up. You say it is shooting high? It sounds like your Krag "carbine" is a cut down rifle with a rifle rear sight and either a Springfield M1903 sight grafted on or an aftermarket front sight.

Either way, if your carbine/cut down rifle, is shooting high, then you need to raise the front sight, not lower it. Stock front sight bases on Krag rifles and carbines are the same, only the height of the sight blade is different. This, along with a carbine rear sight will properly regulate the POI. Carbines have a taller sight blade than rifles and will have a "C" stamped on them.

If you are dealing with a cut down rifle and you have a '03 Springfield front band on it you can also change out the sight blade for a taller one. The pins on all US sights remove from left to right.

Here is a standard Krag front sight base:


Here is a cut down rifle with a 03 Springfield style front base:


If you have either an original front sight, or the 03 style, there is a very simple way to raise the height of the blade. I usually just put a few thousandths of an inch of weld on the blade and then file it down to regulate the point of impact to the point of aim to properly zero the elevation. Before you weld it, you can you can loop a piece of tape over the blade and adjust it until it is where you want it to be and then measure the height and have the appropriate amount welded on.
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Old 04-06-2021, 9:43 AM
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Thanks Highpower, It's an original one just like in your picture. As stated I found out the zero is at 300 yards so shooting high at 50 is exactly what it's supposed to do. I will change the blade to get it to be zeroed at 100. You probably just read the last comment I made regarding it shooting to the left a little and I realized we just drift the dove tail for that but then I read it's brazed so I would think that's a no no.

Correct as stated in the post I think I need to raise it from .294 to like .33" but just guessing 1mm from the sight picture but I'd get the one for sale at .413" and just file down to where it is impacting zero at 100 yards. I think I read the Krag Carbine blade height was supposed to be .286".

Someone must have filed it down since it looks more like a nubbin and in your picture it looks like a normal sight blade. Or maybe they didn't file it down since from what I read it should be 5-6 high at 50 yards. Even when I ran ballistic calculations it seems to be doing what it is supposed to but either way I need to raise the blade.

Do you know about the braising of the front sight mount?

Last edited by Geofois; 04-06-2021 at 9:51 AM..
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Old 04-06-2021, 11:03 AM
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Front sight bases were brazed to the barrel at the armory when rifles and carbines were manufactured and are not adjustable for windage. Maybe you could take a sight blade and bend it slightly one way or the other if it's not off too bad. I have heard of this being done on the old fixed sight revolvers to correct for point of aim.
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Old 04-06-2021, 11:15 AM
Geofois Geofois is offline
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I was thinking that I would bend it slightly then thought I'll just drift it, but I'll be back to bending it a little.
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Old 04-07-2021, 4:42 PM
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If you jack it up, I have an OEM, undrilled Krag sight floating around somewhere.
Didn't end up using it on mine because it was taller than the Lyman sight that I ended up shaving, and I didn't want to grind down an OEM sight for a Bubba gun.
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Old 04-07-2021, 4:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by operavoice View Post
If you jack it up, I have an OEM, undrilled Krag sight floating around somewhere.
Didn't end up using it on mine because it was taller than the Lyman sight that I ended up shaving, and I didn't want to grind down an OEM sight for a Bubba gun.
Is it a sight blade or the whole sight base and blade? That would be awesome thank you. If too tall then I just need to adjust the rear sight so shouldn't need to file at all.
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Old 04-07-2021, 10:00 PM
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Just the blade.
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