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  #1  
Old 09-22-2022, 2:32 AM
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Arrow Seeking Assistance Upon Purchase / Winchester Super Grade French Walnut

I could not find a heading in the forum to pose this question, so I entered it under General. I recently purchased a Winchester Super Grade French Walnut rifle from Kjergaard Sports in Minnesota. They are well respected and are one of the largest shooting sports stores in Minnesota, Iowa, North and South Dakota.

The transaction was without any issues as I sent them a check and received the rifle. The person I spoke with regarding the above sale specifically stated to me that he would include the ‘Bill of Sale’ within the invoice. After waiting the required number of days, I was able to pick up the firearm. However, the gun shop where I made the transfer had ‘opened’ the box without my authorization (Personal Property). In all the years of purchasing firearms, I have never had any open a box that a firearm was contained in. Personally, I did not care for this one bit. More so, the person in the gun store said there was no receipt in the box or taped to the box. Again, in over forty years, I have never seen this nor do I appreciate people trying to dupe others.

I asked the gun store for the exterior box and they said they ‘threw it out’. Never ever heard of that before. I specifically told them the invoice and receipt were in the box or affixed to the exterior in a holder. They said there was nothing. I did not believe them at all and felt that they were keeping the receipt for purposes that I cannot understand. Kjergaard Sports specifically told me the receipt was within the box, in which I truly believed them. We’re speaking of firearms here, not toys.

All my phone calls are logged and recorded for future reference. My question is should I file a complaint with the AG about this. It is highly unlikely that no receipt was with the firearm, none. Maybe, the ATF would agree with them in opening the box but maybe not the law. The Federal Form was sent to them by Kjergaard Sports, so there was no need to open the box. All of the above information can be fully corroborated and has been fully documented.

Again, I do not at all appreciate the sneakiness of the gun shop whereas the transfer was made. I would very much like any and all opinions relating to the above. I do not at all believe the gun shop where the transfer was made. How would any feel about this deceptive act? And, what would be the purpose of the gun store keeping the receipt?
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Last edited by Synoptic 12; 09-22-2022 at 2:33 AM.. Reason: W
  #2  
Old 09-22-2022, 2:44 AM
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What were your damages?
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  #3  
Old 09-22-2022, 2:53 AM
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What were your damages?
No damages. However, the gun shop stole the receipt. There was no need to open the box nor did they have permission to open someone's 'personal property'. The gun shop said they had to verify the serial number. That is an outright lie for the Federal Form was sent to them via email by Kjergaard Sports which had the serial number contained within. This irks me beyond what any know. I'll never conduct business with them ever again, not ever.

The gun shop I was doing business with had closed, so I found a new gun store, yet new no more. They're out!.
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Old 09-22-2022, 2:57 AM
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Move on, enjoy your new gun. It’s not really a big deal.
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  #5  
Old 09-22-2022, 3:10 AM
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Move on, enjoy your new gun. It’s not really a big deal.
You speak as a lawyer, "What are your damages". This facet is irrelevant whereby the gun shop stole my receipt. I'm giving serious consideration in filing a complaint with the Attorney General of our state for dubious business practices. This is just the first step. Thanks very much for your input and concern.
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Old 09-22-2022, 4:02 AM
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I don't know of any FFL that wouldn't verify the serial number on the firearm themselves, therefore opening the box. Don't know what to tell you about the receipt, ask for a duplicate.
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Old 09-22-2022, 4:48 AM
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I don't know of any FFL that wouldn't verify the serial number on the firearm themselves, therefore opening the box. Don't know what to tell you about the receipt, ask for a duplicate.
* That is my personal property. They didn't have to be sneaky in opening the box without me there. I had to wait the allotted time to have the transfer made. The gun store could have at least brought that to my attention, rather than opening the box when I was not there. I did have a duplicate sent to me by Kjergaard but it is no a "hard copy". I collect firearms, so all the details are imperative to me. By the way, I just filed a complaint with the AG of our state, "My prerogative". Thanks very much for the input. I just despise people that are deceptive and who lie.
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  #8  
Old 09-22-2022, 5:31 AM
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Yeah, call the AG...
  #9  
Old 09-22-2022, 5:37 AM
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It's a bit "drama" to say they intentionally "stole" the receipt. I'll bet it got tossed along with whatever packing material was in the shipping box.

It's also not unusual for shops to open shipping boxes upon receiptof the box.. In fact there are federal requirements regarding how long a ffl has to enter a firearm they receive into their book.

Move on. It's no big deal.

Reporting a non event to the AG is way out of line.

A theft is an intentional act, which you can't prove.

If you didn't like how the transaction was handled use a different shop next time. I doubt this shop will miss having you as a customer...
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  #10  
Old 09-22-2022, 5:40 AM
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Patiently waiting for the punchline…
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  #11  
Old 09-22-2022, 5:58 AM
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Rob Bonta will probably take this case on himself, just for you.

IMO, this is entirely on you. You should have asked the gun shop about their procedures before you engaged them. Sheesh.

I suspect if the gun store staff had not opened the box, your post would be ragging on said gun store for not opening the box and you finding either no receipt or the wrong gun when you opened the box...

Oh, and that rifle? It looks just like one I saw some young gun store guys shooting at the range.
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  #12  
Old 09-22-2022, 6:32 AM
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OP, don't sell yourself short, screw AG, that's just small potatoes.
You should contact your CA legislator and demand that the law is passed prohibiting LGS from throwing away receipts. Also, demand that same law is passed on federal level with criminal penalties. That will teach LGS not to mess with your receipts.
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Old 09-22-2022, 7:17 AM
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I always thought the transferring FFL has to log the firearm into their book before transfer to the purchaser. I would assume this includes verifying the serial number on the firearm itself which is why they have to open the box...

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Old 09-22-2022, 7:27 AM
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Wow.

First, boxes containing guns must be opened to verify the firearm serial number/make/model so it can be accurately logged into the bound book aka acquisition and disposition log (required by law) and also make sure it is unloaded. That usually happens immediately not when the customer thinks is is convenient to finally show up for a big reveal.

Next, invoices are printed on paper not gold leaf. It should be easy for the seller to mail you another.

I almost wonder if this is a troll thread - calling the state's chief law enforcement officer over a missing piece of paper? Yeah, do that
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  #15  
Old 09-22-2022, 7:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
I almost wonder if this is a troll thread - calling the state's chief law enforcement officer over a missing piece of paper? Yeah, do that
Look at his post history- 50/50 chance he's trolling.
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Old 09-22-2022, 7:56 AM
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Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
.

I almost wonder if this is a troll thread - calling the state's chief law enforcement officer over a missing piece of paper? Yeah, do that
OP has 27 posts and purports to be located in “usa northeast”…..
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Old 09-22-2022, 7:56 AM
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I’am guessing this is a joke thread. Either that or it’s a guy with a Thick Sloping
Skull. It’s standard for every gun store to open every box……DUH
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Old 09-22-2022, 8:47 AM
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Is OP going to get back to us after the AG fixes this horrific injustice?
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Old 09-22-2022, 8:53 AM
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All of you experts can read this: "Namely the last post which I approved. Trolling, no it's just a delusion on the part of intelligent people like yourselves.
https://www.gunboards.com/threads/se...#post-11135687
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Old 09-22-2022, 8:57 AM
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2 things...first its a piece of paper, get a new from the seller and move on.
Second, I ABSOLUTELY expect my gun shop to open any box that is shipped to them for me to pick up, they have to see gun and make sure it arrived with no damage, register the serial number in their books and absolutely they have to open the box. If they did not, I would be upset after DROS to find some issue. So move on, it sounds to me like you are looking really hard for a reason to return the gun and grasping at straws for a reason to be upset.
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Old 09-22-2022, 9:18 AM
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Did you demand to speak with the manager? Put some of that big dick girl boss attitude out on display.
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Old 09-22-2022, 9:52 AM
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Ask for a digital receipt from the gun shop that sold you the gun and print it out yourself for your records if thats the point here, that's if they already haven't which i would think you would have some sort of digital receipt. But to be honest they might have stored your rifle in a safe, so they took it out the box but to throw it out isn't a big deal to me unless you're a collector of some sort. I throw the cardboard boxes out unless it's a hard case. Move on and enjoy shooting.
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Old 09-22-2022, 9:58 AM
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Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
2 things...first its a piece of paper, get a new from the seller and move on.
Second, I ABSOLUTELY expect my gun shop to open any box that is shipped to them for me to pick up, they have to see gun and make sure it arrived with no damage, register the serial number in their books and absolutely they have to open the box. If they did not, I would be upset after DROS to find some issue. So move on, it sounds to me like you are looking really hard for a reason to return the gun and grasping at straws for a reason to be upset.
* Sure, he could have opened the box in front of me for inspection, rather than being sneaky about it. I have no intention of returning the rifle I purchased, none. Whether you have read the entire content is questionable. No, I'm actually outraged, not upset. In fifty years of conducting business, this has never happened before. I was dealing with a gun shop for a while until they closed a few years back. Excellent personnel and good guys. Now, there are just more snakes adjoined to this business. I'm not spouting off, just stating the facts. Why would you have any inclination in believing I would return the firearm? The rifle is what I expected to receive as this assertion has nothing to do with the manner of business. Thanks for your input. Hopefully, you're not in the school of those who believe I'm trolling.
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Old 09-22-2022, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by b18bturboek9 View Post
Ask for a digital receipt from the gun shop that sold you the gun and print it out yourself for your records if thats the point here, that's if they already haven't which i would think you would have some sort of digital receipt. But to be honest they might have stored your rifle in a safe, so they took it out the box but to throw it out isn't a big deal to me unless you're a collector of some sort. I throw the cardboard boxes out unless it's a hard case. Move on and enjoy shooting.
* I am a collector if you have read the entirely of my posts, including posting this thread on Gunboards. Yes, I was sent a digital receipt via email, yet I have not a 'hard copy'. No, I'm not moving on: I've filed the complaint to our AG Peter Neronha this 22nd day of September 2022.
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Old 09-22-2022, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Synoptic 12 View Post
* I am a collector if you have read the entirely of my posts, including posting this thread on Gunboards. Yes, I was sent a digital receipt via email, yet I have not a 'hard copy'. No, I'm not moving on: I've filed the complaint to our AG Peter Neronha this 22nd day of September 2022.
LoL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synoptic 12 View Post
No, I'm actually outraged, not upset.
Double LoL
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Old 09-22-2022, 10:13 AM
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OP, I believe most people do not value a cardboard box used for shipping and a receipt, that can be reissued, as you value them. This is not the "federal" case that you are making it to be. I doubt that you are going to get a serious response from any law enforcement agency over the loss of a receipt.

I doubt that the FFL was lying to you. Most likely they were careless in opening the shipping box and threw out the receipt. I can't think of a single reason why an FFL would want to keep your receipt.

I know some collectors want to keep every minute item. It appears you are one of those collectors. In going forward with your collecting, in advance, you need to make your desires known.
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Old 09-22-2022, 10:32 AM
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You are aware that it is not your property until you actually take possession of it right? When it was received by the shop you had not filled out a 4473 to complete the transfer. If you were to fail the background check, and the transfer can not be completed it is not your property.

The store has every right to open the box confirm the contents and verify the serial number on the firearm. Just because a serial number is on a box, does not guarantee that that is the serial number on the firearm. Packages get damaged in shipping, boxes with guns are not immune to that damage, a basic inspection when it is received is pretty much necessary these days.

Good luck with your complaint to the AG, I just don't see any violation of law for them to do anything with.
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Old 09-22-2022, 12:29 PM
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I wonder if this troll realized that he is posting this on a California gunboard?

Cause WTF would any of care what happens in Rhode Island?

I already noticed some inconsistencies in his posts. Its a 100% troll job.

Hey Synoptic 12, take your trolling to another site. Mods, please boot this guy already.
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Old 09-22-2022, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Synoptic 12 View Post
* I am a collector if you have read the entirely of my posts, including posting this thread on Gunboards. Yes, I was sent a digital receipt via email, yet I have not a 'hard copy'. No, I'm not moving on: I've filed the complaint to our AG Peter Neronha this 22nd day of September 2022.
Maybe you should print the emailed receipt...

That way you have your all-important hardcopy.

I really can't believe this is a real post.

Outraged because you have to print out a emailed receipt...

If this is real, I feel very sorry for the FFL. I'm sure the few dollars they charged for the transfer isn't worth dealing with a customer with such a PITA attitude.
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What you believe and what is true in real life in the real world aren't necessarily the same thing. And what you believe doesn't change what is true in real life in the real world.
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Old 09-22-2022, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Coolguy101 View Post
I wonder if this troll realized that he is posting this on a California gunboard?

Cause WTF would any of care what happens in Rhode Island?

I already noticed some inconsistencies in his posts. Its a 100% troll job.

Hey Synoptic 12, take your trolling to another site. Mods, please boot this guy already.
* Why don't you try it "creep". You hide behind a phone or PC, most likely hiding in your crib.
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Old 09-22-2022, 1:10 PM
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Originally Posted by P5Ret View Post
You are aware that it is not your property until you actually take possession of it right? When it was received by the shop you had not filled out a 4473 to complete the transfer. If you were to fail the background check, and the transfer can not be completed it is not your property.

The store has every right to open the box confirm the contents and verify the serial number on the firearm. Just because a serial number is on a box, does not guarantee that that is the serial number on the firearm. Packages get damaged in shipping, boxes with guns are not immune to that damage, a basic inspection when it is received is pretty much necessary these days.

Good luck with your complaint to the AG, I just don't see any violation of law for them to do anything with.
That isn't correct. Possession and ownership are two different things. BTW, you might want to read the OP as he stated he received the rifle so...

No matter, when the OP paid in full for the item it became his property, he owns it. That kind of thing happens all the time. People own all kinds of things they don't have in their possession and buy and sell things as owners they've never had in their possession as physical items.

Ownership
Possession
Transfer

3 different things. You can own almost anything, actually possessing it can be illegal.

Convicted felons can own parts of gun companies even though they can't possess guns. Before there is an argument about that, gun companies that sell shares for investment can legally be owned by convicted felons and likely are, they just can't possess the guns those companies make.

The rest of it - meh. Collectors value and pay for the value of all kinds of things including original receipts and such. A simple original receipt can sometimes make a huge difference in the value of an item to other collectors.

Ever talk to a serious collector of some items? It's almost a religion when it comes to original paperwork no matter how ordinary we think it is.






.
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Old 09-22-2022, 1:31 PM
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Old 09-22-2022, 2:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Synoptic 12 View Post
All of you experts can read this: "Namely the last post which I approved. Trolling, no it's just a delusion on the part of intelligent people like yourselves.
https://www.gunboards.com/threads/se...#post-11135687
Oh the answer you got there was textbook and just what you wanted to hear, but also incomplete.

So let me complete the answer with some reality.

At most gun shops there are few (usually only ONE) persons who can make entries to the bound book. So irrespective of the mandated time to enter a gun into the books, that one person's PERSONAL SCHEDULE influences what actually happens.

Also, whether that person planned to be there or not the next day instead of taking the day off, if something comes up and that person cannot make it in - customers get pissed when they show up and cannot process the gun because it has not been logged in a timely manner.

So no, most shops are not going to wait to log it - they do it while the gettin' is good. They have a workflow that takes twenty different variables into account including the law, and they do what experience tells them.

So too bad for you the Unicorn answer you found doesn't jive with real life. Most shops don't operate on theoreticals.
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Old 09-22-2022, 6:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SharedShots View Post
That isn't correct. Possession and ownership are two different things. BTW, you might want to read the OP as he stated he received the rifle so...

No matter, when the OP paid in full for the item it became his property, he owns it. That kind of thing happens all the time. People own all kinds of things they don't have in their possession and buy and sell things as owners they've never had in their possession as physical items.

Ownership
Possession
Transfer

3 different things. You can own almost anything, actually possessing it can be illegal.

Convicted felons can own parts of gun companies even though they can't possess guns. Before there is an argument about that, gun companies that sell shares for investment can legally be owned by convicted felons and likely are, they just can't possess the guns those companies make.

The rest of it - meh. Collectors value and pay for the value of all kinds of things including original receipts and such. A simple original receipt can sometimes make a huge difference in the value of an item to other collectors.

Ever talk to a serious collector of some items? It's almost a religion when it comes to original paperwork no matter how ordinary we think it is.






.
You might want to read the part where he has his panties all in a wad because they opened the box that he claims is his without him being there.

Bottom line it is in the FFL's possession, they are responsible for it, and the contents. They have every right to open the box to ensure that the item in the box is what it is supposed to be, as well as verify the serial number that they have to enter into their bound books that will forever be linked to them by BATF.

Until he signs the line on the 4473, and it is released to him it is not his. If he were to fail the background check the FFL is not going to release it to him no matter if he paid for it, they are going to send it back to where it came from. You're trying to use simple law to apply to something a bit more complex, than an everyday unregulated purchase. There are mandated steps that need to be done before he is able to take possession.

End of the day it's a freaking box and a piece of paper, who give a flying ####. It sure isn't something any AG's office is going to look into.
  #35  
Old 09-22-2022, 6:28 PM
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Since Peter Neronha is AG of Rhode Island, why this is at a California site is unclear.

Closed.
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