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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #1  
Old 07-28-2022, 6:53 PM
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Default 50 DTC EDM or Europ?

I recently bought a used Noreen ULR from a local gun store, they bought it at an estate sale. The roll mark on the barrel says 50 DTC but not the type of 50 DTC (EDM or Europ). I contacted Noreen and they can't confirm what the rifle is chambered in, it was built in 2012 but they don't keep data that long.

My lovely wife took it to a local gunsmith to determine the chamber as a birthday gift to me and he said it has a 18.5 degree shoulder. The BMG's shoulder is 15 degrees....so it is a 50 DTC Europ.

I have 50 BMG once fired military brass and it won't chamber. The gunsmith gave my wife a piece of brass to demonstrate the should angle but when I tried to chamber it, it won't. I grabbed the calipers and its the same length as the BMG brass, so I cut off 0.200" (not going to use the brass) and I can get it to chamber if I grunt the bolt. Now the shoulder where it meets the wall, has a "ring" on it.

I am an experienced reloaded so I know the importance of the correct dies for the chamber but something doesn't feel right.

Is the slope of the shoulder enough to determine chamber?

The dies are pricey and the danger level is high so I want to be sure.

I think the best option is to find another gunsmith?

The dimensions are (BMG) (??? brass)
Length 3.926" 3.720"
Neck diameter 0.563" 0.566"
Body diameter at shoulder 0.719" 0.726"
Body diameter at base 0.795" 0.796"
Base to start of shoulder 3.016" 2.920"
Length of shoulder 0.252" 0.193"
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  #2  
Old 07-28-2022, 8:21 PM
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I thought the DTC was shortened and blown out so it wouldn’t chamber in a .50 BMG chamber and the BMG wouldn’t chamber in a DTC rifle.
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Old 07-29-2022, 4:54 AM
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Yes, but there are two flavors, EDM and Europ. And different dies for each one.

http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/RefReloading50DTC

https://www.ch4d.com/products/dies/c...&filter=50+dtc
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Old 07-29-2022, 12:32 PM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
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The only difference between the two cartridges is the radius on the shoulder itself.
Bill Ritchie said he couldnt read the reamer print clearly from Eric Danis and thus the 510 DTC EDM was born.
There is a poster here that goes by the name MrKubota who sells the dies for half of those listed and he makes ammo as well.
You could buy some cerrosafe and cast the chamber yourself in your kitchen. Put the cerrosafe into a plastic bag and dip it into boiling water until it melts. Once it is melted cut the corner on the bag and let it drip into the chamber. You can plug off the barrel with a cleaning rod and some patches.
If the shoulder has a rounded look like a weatherby you have an EDM if the shoulder is crisp you have a Europ.
Another option would be to fire a round and see which one you have.
Let me know as i have some EDM brass laying around here somewhere.
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Old 07-29-2022, 6:47 PM
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Thanks Lynn, I've never heard of cerrosafe and I'm reading up on the chamber casting and watching some videos.

Iraqveteran8888 has a video I've watched on youtube, among others, and its seems pretty straight forward. Except the part of pouring molten metal down the chamber of my rifle...that might take a little encouragement!

Thanks for the tip and I'll contact MrKubota...I'm guessing I shouldn't let him see my JD hat?
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Old 07-30-2022, 5:15 AM
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Cerrosafe melts easier than wax and you dont need to fill your chamber like you see in most videos. All you want to see is the shoulder radius itself.
With the barrel on the gun and the bolt out you should be able to use a funnel with a long tube to get to the shoulder.
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Old 07-30-2022, 8:51 AM
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I took your advise and contacted MrKubota. It looks like we might be able to make something work, thank you.

I've seem some videos where the recommend a little oil, before the pour. Other videos don't mention anything. I've epoxy bedded a rifle and used shoe polish as a release agent, do you think a light coating of gun oil is sufficient? Or something else?
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Old 07-30-2022, 11:14 AM
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Cerrosafe shrinks so i don't use any release agent at all. In your situation you just need a little puddle on the shoulder and if it doesnt fall out you can tap on it with a cleaning rod.
Glad you contacted Mr Kubota.
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Old 08-19-2022, 9:43 AM
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I received the "National Metallic Chamber Casting Alloy" from Midway and cast my chamber. Also, Mr Kubota was kind enough to send me a piece of EDM fireformed brass and a prepped piece of brass to fireform. I'm still trying to find bullets and primers (have brass and powder). So I'll have to wait on fireforming the second piece.

I've compared the fireformed brass to the cast and they seem the same. The measurements are (after about 1.5 hours from pour to measure time):
1) Diameter (at the junction from body to shoulder) for the brass is 0.760" and the cast is 0.764".
2) Diameter (at the junction from shoulder to neck) for the brass is 0.552" and the cast is 0.564" .
3) Distance of the shoulder (from radius to radius) is identical at 0.291".

So, I have an EDM chamber....right?

I'd like to thank LynnJr and Mr Kubota for helping me get this far, I'm almost ready to try it out!
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Old 08-19-2022, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 73Jim View Post
Except the part of pouring molten metal down the chamber of my rifle...that might take a little encouragement!
The way you phrase that brings images to mind that do not apply when using Cerrosafe

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...y-prod384.aspx

bullet casters have been using this for years to get information about their bores.
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Old 08-19-2022, 1:27 PM
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Wow great job. Yes thats a 510 DTC-EDM the same as the brass Ben sent you. The 510 DTC-EUROP has a radius shoulder similar to a weatherby shoulder.
You didnt need to pour that much just enough to show us the shoulder but it came out very nicely!!!
Never heard the material called anything other than Cerrosafe so im sure it cost more now. It is also reusable so dont toss it out.

1859 Sharps
Wow again i paid $15 a pound when i last bought mine.

There is a 50 caliber match this entire weekend at palomino gun club in Reno if anyone is interested in checking it out.
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Last edited by LynnJr; 08-20-2022 at 6:20 AM..
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Old 08-19-2022, 4:28 PM
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Surprised you can't find primers. At the worst point of the shortage, .50 BMG primers were all you could get.
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Old 08-20-2022, 6:35 AM
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https://www.elr-resources.com/page4.html

If you click on the link above you should be able to get everything you need. CCI 35 primers work well but if you get bit by the accuracy bug Dale at Ten-X bullets sells RWS primers for $1 each in quantities of 200.
On your reloading RE50 and 20N29 for 800 grain bullets and heavier and H50BMG and the faster powders for 750 grain and lighter bullets. The only exception is US869 is suppose to be extremely slow burning and meant for heavy bullets and for some reason it works best with the lighter bullets.
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Old 08-20-2022, 10:06 AM
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Thanks guys for the confirmation, I'll have to get some dies on order.

I have Hodgdon 50BMG powder and a box of full of once shot LC 50BMG brass. I have to figure out a way to trim them all down. I watched a video where he made a clamp to hold like 10 pieces and then ran them through a mill. I think that will be my plan.

I just started looking for bullets/primers. I do remember seeing 50BMG primers...and nothing else last time I looked for primers (about a year ago).

I was looking at pulldown 647g but then I was reading about the non-concentricity on pulldowns. That seems to be a maze of boobie traps so I think I'll pass.

So I started looking at the Horandy 750g. I know bullet weight/barrel length/barrel twist rate/powder burn rate all have to play together for optimal performance.

LynnJr, you referenced 750g bullets/50BMG powder, do you think that is an acceptable opening salvo with 34" barrel with a 1:15 twist?
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Old 08-20-2022, 10:17 AM
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I shoot DTC and did not know (or dont think) there is a differnece
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Old 08-20-2022, 4:11 PM
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The shoulder radius is different on a EDM versus a Europ which came about when Bill Ritchie at EDM arms didnt read the reamer drawing correctly.
I think the loaded cartridges will fire in either chambering but dont know anyone with the Europ version to give it a try.
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Old 08-20-2022, 5:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
The shoulder radius is different on a EDM versus a Europ which came about when Bill Ritchie at EDM arms didnt read the reamer drawing correctly.
I think the loaded cartridges will fire in either chambering but dont know anyone with the Europ version to give it a try.
Which he should have then backtracked and used the Europ version not proceeding any further, but seemed obstinate and stubborn about it - may he rest in peace. I recall the frustration it caused and the ugly debates on Biggerhammer at the time.

There could have been a better uniform transition from .50BMG to .50DTC had that not been allowed to proceed, where I think the popularity of DTC would have gotten more focus. Remember that at that time, a lot of people merely had receivers in order to do builds before AB50 went into effect.

If observation of a single DTC spec had been agreed upon, as it should have been with the Europ version, I think you would see wider spread interest/use in it now as more people would have gone on to build their receivers into DTC rifles to avoid asinine Koretz and CA nonsensical laws.

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Old 08-21-2022, 6:56 AM
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I was the only guy on biggerhammer that was pointing this out to bill at the time and if you remember it took a phone call to his attorney to get him straightened out. If you change a dimension the cartridge gets a new name just like 5.56 223 and 223 Wylde even if it is small.
At the time Rick Jamison was battling Winchester over the 300 WSM patent and i actually think bill ritchie was afraid of the same thing happening with Eric Danis over an international patent.
The poster here that goes by KenKong shot 4 shots into under 1.25 inches at 1000 yards in Coalinga at the last match but the 5th shot just gave him a screamer and not a new world record. I have used his 510 DTC-EDM dies but so far i am around 1/4 inch away from any official screamer groups. The new cutting edge lazer bullets may get me there but at $4 each thats right at $500 per match for the 2 classes i shoot.
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Old 09-22-2022, 6:05 PM
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"I was looking at pulldown 647g but then I was reading about the non-concentricity on pulldowns. That seems to be a maze of boobie traps so I think I'll pass. "

I would buy them for the fire forming.....I also used the powder from pulled down 50bmg for the fire forming at 200 grns....
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